Jewish Book Club discussion

This is the discussion for our first "long summer read," The Source, which I'll be beginning by this weekend. Have you started it yet?

I read The Source decades ago, when I was, uh, younger and more impressionable. So I can't say how it's stood up to time. But I was swept up in its scope and characters. Really long, though. Definitely a summer read.

We'll see how the "summer read" idea goes!

I have avoided Michener because I don't like long intergenerational novels like that. For example, I love Annie Proulx but couldn't read her Barkskins. The only Michener I tried was Hawaii, and didn't get too far. Yes, that was in my youth, I guess, Mel, or in my relative youth. But I have a friend who says The Source brought him back to his Jewishness. I found that inspiring. I'm hoping the content will pull me in despite the length. That's what happened when I read George Eliot's Daniel Deronda. Hoping to be "swept up" as you were in that past time, Mel!

Mel wrote: "I read The Source decades ago, when I was, uh, younger and more impressionable. So I can't say how it's stood up to time. But I was swept up in its scope and characters. Really long, though. Defini..."

Mel,
I read it maybe in college and loved it, but I appreciate it more now due to my updated knowledge and experiences.
I did a buddy read with Jonathan a few years ago for the second time. I thought I was fast reader, but Jonathan is faster.
Yes, a long book but it reads quicker doing a buddy read for some reason. Maybe it's bc I had to stay up all night to catch up with Jonathan :)
Jonathan, what say you?

Thanks for the kindness Stacey.

When I read it with you it was a third time and most enjoyable as we were able to exchange different ideas through our notes. I found in each reading I learn something new, that I missed the last time. The first time was in 1994 when I was taking my first trip to Israel and on my tour we were going to visit what once was a Tell. I could not think of a better introduction to the history of Israel then this historical novel. The book is about 1100 pages, but since it is a story of a tell, that begins in the Iron Age and ends in the mid 1960's. The book reads like 17 different novellas that chronologically build on each other, and I think it is a great way to approach. A story about the Jews during the crusades, the inquisitions, the Jews of Greece, coming from Russia and trying to buy land in the 19th century. All with the backdrop of the team of archaeologists who are digging out the tell and their reactions to what they are finding.

Jonathan wrote: "Thanks for the kindness Stacey.

When I read it with you it was a third time and most enjoyable as we were able to exchange different ideas through our notes. I found in each reading I learn somet..."

Jonathan,
You have a way with words :)
The Source is exactly like 17 novellas; each equally important and necessary for the end game.
My husband worked on a dig at Tel Arad for a summer. He found nothing in 16 weeks. When we took our kids, the guide gave them small tools and taught them how to be gentle with them. He had buried a few coins and cracked pottery. When they uncovered them, of course they struck gold.:) Great memories.
The aqueduct near Caesarea was fascinating, I believe was built by Herod. There's another one that was parallel to it that I want to say
was Roman.? It would of had to been Roman.

Yes , that Aqueduct-when you considered the time it was fascinating. I think Michener somewhat references it in the Source when he describes the hidden tunnel system of water. That was an engineering feat for its time.

How wonderful you had the experiences of digging on a Tell. It seems the biggest challenge at that time is deciding what part of the Tell you start your dig.

Ordered a new, standard paperback. What I have is the mass market, about 4 1/2 x 6. I could do with it but decided to treat myself since will be reading it a while.

In the meantime, keeping on with the one I have. About 6% into it. 😅

I could do Kindle. It's in our library b/c my husband bought it. But I'm afraid would feel as though I were wandering in the trackless desert. He also bought the audible.com version but that much time I don't have.

Jonathan wrote: "How wonderful you had the experiences of digging on a Tell. It seems the biggest challenge at that time is deciding what part of the Tell you start your dig."

Absolutely right. That was the question I asked- even after reading the book.

Agree with you Jan. They seem make the words in these paperbacks a lot smaller as I get older. Very spoiled by my Kindle. A book like this though is well worth reading in its original form.

Jonathan wrote: "Agree with you Jan. They seem make the words in these paperbacks a lot smaller as I get older. Very spoiled by my Kindle. A book like this though is well worth reading in its original form."

I also have the suspicion that the author is treating us readers a little like the archeologists treated the donor: providing lots and lots of interesting finds. Do you think archeologists really dig up priceless and unique items left and right? ;) I don't mind, though. Know he's doing it to make the book more readable.

Got into the 2nd part last night -- the cave men. Progress!

Jan wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Agree with you Jan. They seem make the words in these paperbacks a lot smaller as I get older. Very spoiled by my Kindle. A book like this though is well worth reading in its origi..."

They dug up major amounts of findings, but not left and right. There were days, weeks, months when they came away empty handed. Depending on where they were and how deep they had to dig. Land shifts.
Experts put a value on the items, and yes.. there are many which now live in their own home at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.
You would be surprised what has been found in the last year at Ir David, (City of David) also in Jerusalem. Amazing.

Really interesting Stacey. I did not know that. I have to think the technology they have now gives them so much more help on where to dig.

Jonathan wrote: "Really interesting Stacey. I did not know that. I have to think the technology they have now gives them so much more help on where to dig."

Jonathan, yes. I was referring to the dig's that began earlier coinciding with examples from chapters in the book. Archeologists depended on the expertise of historians and anthropologists that together constructed maps with only their knowledge and experience.
You know this like the back of your hand. :)
I just wasn't clear- Ma Nishtana
"Today'" as you said, the excavations are easier to target due to the advancement of tech available. Wow, I sound like an expert. :) That's why I fast forwarded in reference to "today" re the particular dig I mentioned. The findings are much faster, although the instruments such as the batishe (little blunt pointed hammer) and soft metal forks that look like baby rakes takes the same amount of time as it did. There are steps for tourists to go up as well as steps down into the earth on a narrow path carved from the city which is now lit.
Its wild wandering a path in a city that David captured 3,000 ago We were given water shoes but they should have given me a towel. :)
I am not even an amateur, but learned this on a two day dig experience w/o my kids. Fun!!

Jan wrote: "This is the discussion for our first "long summer read," The Source, which I'll be beginning by this weekend. Have you started it yet?"
I read the Source about 10 or 12 years ago when I was first beginning my explorations of being Jewish. I only had a vague idea of what the book was about. It was not an intergenerational story, and I read it as a history of one location, how it changed with the culture and society that lived there. In the years since, I have made good use of the knowledge I gained when certain historical references came up - a water aqueduct system, the city of Safed, the word ‘TELL’ was the answer to a Jeopardy question the other day. The writing style is straightforward and easy to read, which I like. At one point in the story the Roman guards are torturing/killing an old rabbi, a reference to Rabbi Akiva. I read this part at the same time as I was reading a Young Adult holocaust memoir. The attitudes of the two governments and the societies, Rome and Germany, were linked in my mind and I found I couldn’t read either book for a week or more. When I finished the book, I was sorry that it was written around 1965, since I would have liked to continue the history up to current time. I read Michener’s autobiography (The World is my Home) about 30 years ago and learned that he actually lived in many of the locations that he wrote about. He was a very interesting man.

Jonathan wrote: "Agree with you Jan. They seem make the words in these paperbacks a lot smaller as I get older. Very spoiled by my Kindle. A book like this though is well worth reading in its original form."

Thank g-d for the kindle and font settings. :)

Irene wrote: "Jan wrote: "This is the discussion for our first "long summer read," The Source, which I'll be beginning by this weekend. Have you started it yet?"
I read the Source about 10 or 12 years ago when I..."

Irene, I'm impressed at how much you remember of The Source. I read it probably 40 years ago and much of it has faded from my memory. Thank you for the reminders. I look forward to reading it again with fresh eyes.

Jan wrote: "Ordered a new, standard paperback. What I have is the mass market, about 4 1/2 x 6. I could do with it but decided to treat myself since will be reading it a while.

In the meantime, keeping on wi..."

I have a 1965 2nd printing hardback that was my mother's [no cover anymore though]. I think I've read it three times over the years and made notes in the margins. Unfortunately, I found it dated and a bit sexist when I last read it a few years ago. But still a good read.

Maggie,
It's awesome to have this keepsake of your mother's, especially the same year Michener's book was written. Keep it safe.
"Meta Filter" also shares your opinion; yet I interpreted the book as two- fold. Many readers feel it's about who owns the water.
In the sense that The Source is 57 years old, sure its dated.
As written in 1965- read with 2023 eyes will undoubtedly reflect the lack of knowledge during those times including the sexist view that would be considered PC today.
I also read it as an incredible story of the jewish people and culture. It was also a parallel story of civilizations whose history exhibited negative attitudes and actions throughout time that were consistently anti semitic.
At the same time I found that in each era, women played roles, but you're right, not significant in a lead role; nor as an expert on the excavation team.
I loved this book but don't think a third time is calling my name.

Very well said Stacey. You are dealing with mid sixties thinking and culture.

Jonathan wrote: "Very well said Stacey. You are dealing with mid sixties thinking and culture."

:)

My new and slightly larger paperback arrived! It is easier to read, and it fits perfectly into my blue canvas-like book cover with strap and built-in bookmark. My style of tech: low tech.

I have passed the 1/3 mark and going for 1/2 done.
Not to be obstinate, but sure looks like "multi-generational" to me. Somebody said it's not, it's what I mean by that. Enjoyable, but some readers seem to me to have a sense of piety about this book that I don't have. I do feel close to my father of blessed memory who had it on his bookshelf. Well, anything I say now may be contradicted by the rest of the book so shutting up temporarily. :)

I have passed the 3/4 mark. Had some difficulties recently as Michener's picture bears out the so-called lachrymose theory of Jewish history -- or maybe simply the lachrymose theory of history. Rough reading! ...but maybe I have come to a part that's a little more positive! (...gasping for breath....) And also the effort to finish this one is why I'm not reading any of the other books at the moment!

How's it going, Jan? I read this book several years ago and loved it. I'm going to start a reread for this discussion. Meantime, wondering if you would say more about Michener's "lachrymose theory of Jewish history." Do you mean that you disagree with what he wrote or that it's upsetting?

Anne wrote: "How's it going, Jan? I read this book several years ago and loved it. I'm going to start a reread for this discussion. Meantime, wondering if you would say more about Michener's "lachrymose theory ..."

Hi, Anne, and thanks for your questions and comment.
Re "How's it going:" "I think I can; I think I can: I think I can." 🥰 Under 200 pages to go.

I am reading it for this group and because I have a friend who found it kindled his interest in Judaism after he'd been more or less lost to the tradition, so that's what keeps me keeping on. And also because it was important to my parents.

Don't know what would have happened if I'd tried to read it years ago, but now I both appreciate his effort and cringe when his view gets refracted through the dominant culture. Maybe it's his own struggle to accept/understand? The "lachrymose theory" means the tearful approach to Jewish history -- the emphasis on suffering. It's a quote from somebody or other; anyway, it's depressing!

But I may have found the antidote. Some years ago I was gifted Jerusalem: The Biography and never read. Starting now. :)

Jan wrote: "Anne wrote: "How's it going, Jan? I read this book several years ago and loved it. I'm going to start a reread for this discussion. Meantime, wondering if you would say more about Michener's "lachr..."

I don't often see the word "lachrymose" used in daily life. I'm a bit of an opera fan so it always makes me think of the Donizetti aria "Una furtiva lacrima." Are you familiar by any chance?

I read Jerusalem: The Biography just a few months ago. If you think The Source is depressing.......It really hit home for me how long people having been fighting for the ownership of Jerusalem/Israel better than anything I've ever read.

Anne wrote: "... ael better than anything I've ever read. "

The Montefiore is better? Good! I went to it not only b/c of distress over The Source but b/c he has a new book that I saw being talked about.

The Source definitely raises lots of discussion topics!!! Lots to talk about. I've been taking notes -- not tons but points that stood out for me.

Jan wrote: "The Montefiore is better? Good! I went to it not only b/c of distress over The Source but b/c he has a new book that I saw being talked ..."

The Montefiore is different since there is no fictional piece. Very thoroughly researched (dense) and readable in small chunks.

Was just looking up Michener but ran out of time for this morning. Will have to come back....

Anne wrote: "Jan wrote: "The Montefiore is better? Good! I went to it not only b/c of distress over The Source but b/c he has a new book that I saw being talked ..."

The Montefiore is different since there is ..."

But is that the one you meant is better than anything you've ever read?

Hello,

I think there are so many hidden gems in this book. One of the most I appreciated was the reason as to why Kashrut does not allow the mixing of dairy and meat at a meal. In the beginning chapters it describes a situation as when the calf meat was being cooked, It would be disrespectful to the mother to cook it in her milk. It was like an AHA! moment, I get it that makes a lot of sense.

Jan, I didn't mean to say the Montefiore was better though it is more comprehensive and more of a history. It shows the genesis and importance of Jerusalem to Judaism, Christianity and Islam from the earliest battle on. I found the history and politics to be very interesting from that point of view. A bit dense and difficult to keep straight sometimes but interesting.

Anne wrote: "Jan, I didn't mean to say the Montefiore was better though it is more comprehensive and more of a history. It shows the genesis and importance of Jerusalem to Judaism, Christianity and Islam from t..."

I just reread what you wrote, and now I understand what you said: better than anything else you've read on how long people have been fighting over Jerusalem! 😅

Jonathan wrote: "Hello,

I think there are so many hidden gems in this book. One of the most I appreciated was the reason as to why Kashrut does not allow the mixing of dairy and meat at a meal. In the beginning c..."

There are, Jonathan. I totally agree. But the gems can be mixed in with stuff that's off the mark and could increase confusion.

Overall, though, the book is to the good. He wrote it during the era when people were open to the idea of Israel and when it could have a positive impact. On Goodreads' page for the Source, you can see that over 5000 people are reading it right now. Pretty good for a 1963 book!

Plus, many discussion points.

...I just looked, and over 3500 are reading Montefiore's book. But it's only from 2011. 🤓

Jan wrote: "...I just looked, and over 3500 are reading Montefiore's book. But it's only from 2011. 🤓"

Jan, I look forward to your thoughts about it.

Anne wrote: "... Jan, I look forward to your thoughts about it."

I already like something he said in the preface: something about sticking w/the facts no matter who didn't like it. And he wasn't going to erase any of the players no matter who was wanting to do so....

... Well, back to The Source. I better go read.

Jan wrote: "Anne wrote: "... Jan, I look forward to your thoughts about it."

I already like something he said in the preface: something about sticking w/the facts no matter who didn't like it. And he wasn't g..."

That sounds hopeful! I hope you love the book.

I haven't read the other book yet -it sounds great.
Just want to make an obvious point that The Source is historical fiction/contemporary literary fiction and Jerusalem : The Biography is totally non-fiction. Another fabulous author.
Do they read as similar?

Stacey B wrote: "I haven't read the other book yet -it sounds great.
Just want to make an obvious point that The Source is historical fiction/contemporary literary fiction and Jerusalem : The Biography is totally ..."

Can't say yet as I've just barely cracked Jerusalem: The Bio. Yet I do think Michener wanted to use his fictional retelling to bring some of the history to the masses; don't you?

BTW, am enjoying the end. I am 90% through -- less than 100 pages to go. In a way, I wish he'd shortened his novel down to the end -- but, no, wouldn't have worked! ☺️

Jan wrote: "Stacey B wrote: "I haven't read the other book yet -it sounds great.
Just want to make an obvious point that The Source is historical fiction/contemporary literary fiction and Jerusalem : The Biog..."

Cant shorten history. :)

Jan wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Hello,

I think there are so many hidden gems in this book. One of the most I appreciated was the reason as to why Kashrut does not allow the mixing of dairy and meat at a meal. I..."

Yes, that is really impressive. Good to see.

You might have got their already but speaking to confusion. One of the last chapters Rebbe Itzik and the Sabra speaks in 1963 to a problem that it stills prevalent today in Israel. Also it is a telling point in the book that ties the past to the present.

Jonathan wrote: "... You might have got there already but speaking to confusion. One of the last chapters Rebbe Itzik and the Sabra speaks in 1963 to a problem that it stills prevalent today in Israel. Also it is a telling point in the book that ties the past to the present."

I am on that part!
Had to stop in the middle of it last night.

Stacey,
my experience was that the two books were not similar at all.

Anne wrote: "Stacey,
my experience was that the two books were not similar at all."
Thanks Anne,
Appreciate your answer. I couldn't imagine they would be but
I had to ask.

Stacey B wrote: "Anne wrote: "Stacey,
my experience was that the two books were not similar at all."
Thanks Anne,
Appreciate your answer. I couldn't imagine they would be but
I had to ask."

Sure. They both cover the history of Palestine/Israel from the beginning of humans, more or less.

Ooooo-o-o, 73 pages to go and just hit that major reveal! Which I won't spoil by writing it out loud.

I read this book more years ago than I want to admit. While I would love to re-read it, I am so far behind on my more current reading I couldn't do it.

I did read this before I went to Israel my first time. It stirred my desire to go on a dig and to learn from history. I don't remember all the stories, but the history of how people come and go but the place remains fascinates me.

I will note, my book blog is actually named after the book - it was the number 1 best seller on the NYT list the day I was born.