The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The Gothic Project - The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole
Week 2 - Chap 3 - 5

1) In chapter three, Matilda tells Theodore to “fly to the sanctuary. – To sanctuary! Theodore retorted: No, princess; sanctuaries are for helpless damsels, or for criminals. Theodore’s soul is free from guilt, nor will wear the appearances of it.” ` What does this statement tell us about what a hero is and does?

2) What do you think is the role of the church in this book? What do you think that says about Walpole’s thoughts on religion, church, salvation, and the safety it might provide?

3) Did you appreciate the presence of Bianca or did you feel the timing of her appearance and long rambling stories took away from what was going on around her?

4) What are we to make of the conclusion? Did it end the way you expected? Why do you think certain characters survived while others did not?

5) Did Manfred's change of heart surprise you? Did it seem realistic to you? Do you think the change was sincere?

6) This is considered the first Gothic novel and it sets the standards for the genre. What elements did you expect to find? Did the novel meet your expectations?

7) Manfred treated all the servants unfairly, although the women seemed to treat their ladies with more decorum. What can we learn about 18th Century households through their interactions? Who really holds the power in this relationship?

Gem wrote: "
2) What do you think is the role of the church in this book? What do you think that says about Walpole’s thoughts on religion, church, salvation, and the safety it might provide?..."

Walpole presents the Church as truly a source of sanctuary from the excess cruelty and capriciousness of lay rulers. The clerical authorities are portrayed in a far better light than the lay authorities.
Friar Jerome's fathering of Theodore had me wondering about the status of clerical celibacy at the time of the book's setting. Walpole says it was set sometime between 1095 and 1243. Clerical celibacy was first required by the Church in 1123 and again in 1139 in a "We really mean it, guys" edict. I also remember from reading Sigrid Undset's The Master of Hestviken series that, at least in 1200s era Norway, many clericals still had a spouse despite the edict. It at least means that clerical fatherhood would not have been as surprising in that era as it would seem now.

Gem wrote: "
4) What are we to make of the conclusion? Did it end the way you expected? Why do you think certain characters survived while others did not?."

It ended now I thought except I didn't know how Walpole would resolve the dual love interest dilemma but I presumed one of them had to end unhappy. But, no they didn't. as Walpole chose to rely on his attribution to Matilda of the trait of extreme altruism and so he lets her die happily in her self-sacrifice. Yuck. But more acceptable to 18th Century readers than 21st Century ones.

Gem wrote: "
5) Did Manfred's change of heart surprise you? Did it seem realistic to you? Do you think the change was sincere?.."

I went into this open-minded so there wasn't much that was going to surprise me. Even so, Manfred's change of heart wouldn't have been surprising considering the religious and superstitious attitudes of the time. But I too would probably change my attitudes if I saw what Manfred saw.So realistic enough.

Brian E wrote: "It at least means that clerical fatherhood would not have been as surprising in that era as it would seem now."

Good point. Although Jerome's explanation at the end was plausible enough.

Brian E wrote: "Walpole chose to rely on his attribution to Matilda of the trait of extreme altruism and so he lets her die happily in her self-sacrifice. Yuck. But more acceptable to 18th Century readers than 21st Century ones."

I kept expecting a happy ending and had to keep reminding myself this was "gothic" and "horror" and I wasn't going to have a happy ending.

I'm concurrently reading Wuthering Heights, and while it seems largely realistic, having read this book is making the gothic elements stand out in higher relief: ghosts, nightmares, curses...

This is fun! Bring on The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and Other Tales of Terror!

Finished, and what a farrago it is! Entertaining, but I felt one step ahead all the time. And Walpole’s desire to pitch the reader directly into the action and keep it moving led to many awkward bits when he had to backtrack and explain things.

I nearly lost it when the giant helmet was joined by a giant sword—couldn’t stop thinking about that medieval camp classic of rude innuendo, The Knight of the Burning Pestle.

As for Jerome having a son, a lot of people from wealthy families led secular lives and then retired to the monastery or nunnery later on—for political reasons sometimes, to avoid becoming a target in just the sort of inheritance wars we see in this story.

The characters seemed wildly inconsistent, changing their minds with every turn of the plot. Walpole was not much of a novelist. The one surprise I got was when (view spoiler)[Matilda died. (hide spoiler)]

My reading was somewhat hampered by a dreadful fake edition—thanks for nothing, Amazon! It claimed to be annotated but had no annotations. There was an introduction and chapter summaries, but they were auto-translated apparently from a fictional language because they were gibberish. The intro mentioned Walpole’s two prefaces but the book includes only one; the chapter summaries popped up at weird intervals in the book—e.g., the summaries for chapters III, IV, and V were after chapter IV but before chapter V.

I was shocked by Matilda's death. Silly me, I had expected that she and Theodore would have their happy ending. But the fact that Manfred killed her, even accidentally, set in motion the needed resolution of the ownership of the estate and of his marriage. I hope he did a lot of penance in that monastery - he was truly a despicable character!
Overall, I enjoyed the novel, although I agree with those who found the giant helmet and other elements laughable. Ditto the secret passage that was no secret to anyone. This was a primitive example of what gothic would become, but as a first effort it really established what the genre would be.

Nancy wrote: "I was shocked by Matilda's death. Silly me, I had expected that she and Theodore would have their happy ending."

Right?

Nancy wrote: "Overall, I enjoyed the novel, although I agree with those who found the giant helmet and other elements laughable. Ditto the secret passage that was no secret to anyone. This was a primitive example of what gothic would become, but as a first effort it really established what the genre would be."

I couldn't agree more. I think some of the elements that were so shocking then aren't for us now due to the fact that we have furthered our scientific understanding of things.

I pretty much agree with what has been said. To me this was an example of someone‘s (the author‘s) ideas about what a novel like this should contain. But the execution was somewhat lacking. I think that things have gotten a bit out of hand as we have gotten along. And explanations of events were somewhat lacking. All the elements of a gothic novel were there, but it was too much of it. So, this can be commended for the novelty, but not the execution. Much better things to come later on. Enjoyable to a certain degree, but limited. Other authors still can be read without the „chuckle“ effect, not this one. But he started a new genre, that’s something in itself!

I wasn’t much impressed by this novel, particularly the ending which felt extremely contrived. It seemed that Theodore was to be ‘saddled’ with Isabella even though he had no feelings for her except maybe gratitude for being Matilda’s friend. Isabella might be lovestruck (like the rest of the women in the castle) but Theodore seeing her being there as a friend to soothe his heartache is not what either of them would really want. After all of Theodore’s heroics does Walpole think he has given him his just rewards?

Manfred’s metamorphosis from a devil into a saint, brought about by mistakenly murdering his own daughter, could be seen as a fairly original plot line. Was Walpole trying to make out that he was not such a bad fellow after all or was the moral of the novel more to do with atonement than revenge?

As for the gothic elements, I appreciated the fact that this was a very early example of the genre. Even so the mayhem created by the giant’s parts, (helmet, foot and hand) alongside the moving painting and the skeleton friar made me think more of a ‘haunted house’ at a funfair rather than a super scary story.

Incidentally, Ann Radcliffe’s birth coincided with the publication year of this novel so it was only two to three decades later when she was producing some genuinely eerie gothic moments in her novels.

Interesting speculations as always, Trev. Your comments on the marriage at the end especially struck me: the text reflects such a limited understanding of the humanity of women. At the time this book was written, as I understand it, there existed a flourishing industry of fiction writers putting women at the center of their stories, but those books were regarded as nonserious, popular works and are not generally read or studied today. Fanny Burney’s Evelina was maybe one of the first to break through and be taken seriously by the intellectual elite. I think as time goes on we’ll see female characters more often placed at the center of the narrative in gothic novels and their characters treated in far more nuanced ways.

I was not impressed by this story either. There was a certain twist when Manfred stabbed his own daughter. I think I was mostly amused by the prince of Vicenza as I have friends from Vicenza and have been there.
I thought the characters to be quite flat, but maybe that was because he tried to set something in the 11th or 12th century. Other 18th century literature is much more developed.

My Penguin classics edition has a huge appendix with reviews of the time of publication until the beginning of the 19th century. The book had its acknowledgment, but also its criticism. One of the things was the exaggeration of some of its Gothic elements like the huge helmet and the even larger/ heavier sword.

I didn't "love" this story but I'm glad I read it given that so many point to it as the beginning of the genre. To me, it had so many comedic elements to it that made me chuckle vs. making me scared or afraid. It felt to me like the author wasn't sure what kind of story he was writing.

I agree that the book wasn’t at all frightening or chilling. I think this is because we are reading it through a 20th/21st century lens. We have read and seen so much horror, both real and fictional that the horror elements of TCOO appear laughable.
However, I can try to imagine what it may have been like to be a 19th century woman reading it (it tended to be women who read novels). For example, the first time I tried to watch the TV show The Walking Dead I was truly frightened and revolted - I hadn’t watched any zombie films or shows before because the very idea upset me. I watched fragments and had to turn it off. Perhaps people felt the same way when they read TCOO?
My overall impression of the novel was not favourable however. The characterisation was poor, events happened too quickly: and then, and then, and then….and the writing itself was, at times, opaque. It didn’t surprise me that it was based on a nightmare that Walpole had as it had the same flavour of isolated, unpleasant incidents and dream logic.