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ARCHIVE - WEEK 2 – CLEOPATRA -> Chapter Two - Dead Men Don’t Bite (p. 11 - 42) - (MARCH 23rd – MARCH 29th) - No Spoilers, please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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The second week’s reading assignment is:
Week Two - March 23rd – March 29th, 2015
Chapter Two: Dead Men Don’t Bite - pages 11 - 42
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter 2: Dead Men Don’t Bite
Twenty-one year old Cleopatra was at war with her thirteen year old brother/husband Ptolemy XIII in 48 BC, when Pompey, just having been defeated by Caesar at Pharsalus, arrived, hoping for an alliance. Ptolemy’s advisers decided that would have been too dangerous, so they beheaded Pompey, hoping to please Caesar. When Caesar arrived a few days later, he was appalled (apparently) at being presented with Pompey’s head. He called the young king and queen to a meeting, hoping to settle their differences. Ptolemy refused, but Cleopatra decided this was a good chance to get Caesar on her side, so she traveled secretly from the coast to Alexandria and had herself smuggled into the palace by a loyal retainer, Apollodorus. Caesar was won over and spent the next six months besieged in part of the palace, and at the end of that time, Cleopatra was pregnant.
The Ptolemaic dynasty was founded by Ptolemy, a close associate of Alexander the Great; not long after Alexander had died Ptolemy took over the Egyptian part of Alexander’s empire and decided to rule more or less as the pharaohs did, including instituting sibling marriage. Down through the generations there was a lot of intra-family murder. Interestingly, the role of women in Egypt was much more open than in Rome or Greece. Women could and did own businesses and property, and the law was on their side against abusive husbands.
Cleopatra and other upper class girls had an extensive education (in Greek), much like that given to boys. Homer was a mainstay, along with Aesop and Euripides and other Greek authors. The work was quite exacting and the girls weren’t allowed to slack off. Cleopatra even took the trouble to learn Egyptian, the first of her line to do so.
When she was eighteen, her father, Ptolemy Auletes, died and she and her brother Ptolemy XIII, ten at the time, ascended the throne and were married.
Caesar was no doubt impressed by her erudition as well as her link to one of his heroes, Alexander. Although she reportedly wasn’t beautiful, she was attractive enough and had a great deal of charm. Another of her attractions was the enormous wealth of Egypt.
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I enjoyed the background of Cleopatra's early life. I had no idea that she was so educated and that it was because it was expected of her. That was a very progressive society.
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Really fascinating to read about both education and family politics. The quote about her family tree (page 11 of the chapter in my Kobo) that begins, "If Cleopatra's parents were full..." made me laugh. For her to have mastered the curriculum set out for her, and to have survived her family, say a great deal about her determination, intelligence and mental prowess/strength as a young woman.
Yes, I agree. I have always heard that Cleopatra was cunning, but this chapter spelled out how and why that came to be so. It also makes me wonder why we haven't heard of other women in Cleopatra's family and their intelligence. Could it be that even by the high standards she was held to, she was still very gifted?
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So great to have a section on the rest of her family! I had no idea it was like that, now I'd like to read a book that steps through them all! Vicki, I agree! How could they bring themselves to kill their brothers, mothers, sons and daughters like that?!?
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Part of my fascination with sibling intermarriage among the Ptolemies (and I believe among the Hawaiian royal families) is that it seems so "unnatural"--in the sense of "against nature." My understanding is that children raised together from an early age in families or in a kibbutz seldom feel sexual attraction for one-another. Mating outside one's "family" seems to be a genetic imperative among most animals in the wild. So why the strange behavior?It must say a lot about the importance of rank in human society that Egyptian royalty should have placed such a premium on status that they willingly mated with uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters to avoid defiling their lineage with the blood of mere commoners. Of course if you were a god like Cleopatra I guess you wouldn't have much choice; there just weren't that many gods around.
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47 BC: Cleopatra reinstated as queen of Egypt
The legendary Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator, aided by her Roman lover Julius Caesar, was reinstated as coruler of Egypt (with her brother Ptolemy XIV) this day in 47 BC following a civil war with her brother Ptolemy XIII.
Britannica links from the article:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...
Jim wrote: "Part of my fascination with sibling intermarriage among the Ptolemies (and I believe among the Hawaiian royal families) is that it seems so "unnatural"--in the sense of "against nature." My underst..."They may have married each other but that doesn't necessarily mean they had children together. It seems Ptolemy and Cleopatra wanted nothing to do with each other and her first child is Caesars.
The educational level and overall gender equality in her society was fascinating and sums up the source of her skills very well. The meaning of her name as described on pg 25 could not be more fitting.
I too was impressed with Cleopatra's quality of education and the respect teachers were given in Alexandria during this period - "...this community of scholars, cosseted by the state, housed tax-free in luxurious quarters, fed in a vast communal dining hall." (p. 36) Even by modern standards, the level of education and high regard for teachers was exceptional.
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I found it fascinating that Cleopatra knew more about science than most Europeans in the 1400s, i.e. the world was spherical, not flat. It's also interesting that Cleopatra's family tree was so complex that "someone simply lost count" of the number of Cleopatras so the woman we know as Cleopatra VII was actually Cleopatra VI.
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A lot of knowledge was lost following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD. According to the Wikipedia article on the Middle Ages,
"Values attached to Latin scholarship and education mostly disappeared, and while literacy remained important, it became a practical skill rather than a sign of elite status. In the 4th century, Jerome (d. 420) dreamed that God rebuked him for spending more time reading Cicero than the Bible."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_A...
Vicki wrote: "Heather wrote: "I found it fascinating that Cleopatra knew more about science than most Europeans in the 1400s, i.e. the world was spherical, not flat. "A lot of knowledge was lost following the ..."
So sad that knowledge and faith in God were seen as mutually exclusive.
I just can't understand how Stacy appears to believe in the carpet story. How likely would be for a queen to put herself into a carpet, a sack or something similar in a place as hot as Egypt and be presentable for Julius Caesar? That doesn't make any sense.Also calling to Greek palaces "villas" is a bit out of context.
Vicki wrote: "Heather wrote: "I found it fascinating that Cleopatra knew more about science than most Europeans in the 1400s, i.e. the world was spherical, not flat. "A lot of knowledge was lost following the ..."
That's false. All medieval educated men knew the Earth was round. Despite many losses of knwoledge, that was known even in the times of Charlemagne.
Wikipedia's article on the idea of a flat Earth
Washington Irving, apparently a flat earth believer, should have stuck to fiction.
I also find funny Stacy says "She played with terra-cotta dolls and dollhouses and tea sets and miniature furniture," when tea wasn't available in ancient Egypt.
José Luís wrote: "I also find funny Stacy says "She played with terra-cotta dolls and dollhouses and tea sets and miniature furniture," when tea wasn't available in ancient Egypt."Perhaps "herbal tea" or "tisane" would have been more accurate terms.
A toy tea set does not bring to mind, tea. But rather just toy dishes -- at least in our area the term has come to mean something other than actual tea.
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Vicki, I didn't dispute the toy dishes, but instead I was saying there weren't tea sets in ancient Egypt.
I too was impressed with the extent of Cleopatra's education. I remembered from my previous reading that she had some education, but had forgotten how rigorous it was. I found it interesting that her personality and speaking ability were what caught people's attention, and later people found her looks striking.
I think I got completely lost when Stacy Schiff talked about her genealogy
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José Luís wrote: "I just can't understand how Stacy appears to believe in the carpet story. How likely would be for a queen to put herself into a carpet, a sack or something similar in a place as hot as Egypt and be..."Royalty under pressure has done a lot of "uncomfortable" things.
I can accept the story - she had to avoid forces she could not overwhelm.
The presentation in this chapter is of things I mostly (really mostly) did not know.
It sets a stage for understanding what will go forward. I hope I can keep the characters straight.
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"So Cleopatra, taking only Apollodorus the Sicilian from among her friends, embarked in a little skiff and landed at the palace when it was already getting dark; and as it was impossible to escape notice otherwise, she stretched herself at full length inside a bed-sack, while Apollodorus tied the bed-sack up with a cord and carried it indoors to Caesar."
She had to get into the palace to meet with Caesar and her brother's guards would have tried to keep her out. I can buy it.
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PlutarchOnline source
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Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited May 13, 2015 06:58PM)
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Thank you for all your responses and input.
Thank you Heather for your post regarding tisanes and Vicki for your patience and very thoughtful and informative posts.
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See as follows - "The arguably most famous Herbal tea finds its roots in ancient Egypt.
The first recorded mention of Chamomile being enjoyed was in a document known as the Ebers Papyrus, dating back to 1550 BC. Used to honor the gods, embalm the dead and cure the sick, Chamomile has endured a lasting fame. This light, sweet, apple-like beverage is still revered for its uncanny (caffeine-free) calming effect.
Peppermint has been used as a caffeine-free home remedy aiding digestion and soothing the stomach for millennia, dating back to the Greeks. During these times, tables were rubbed with Peppermint to make dining more pleasant.
http://www.adagio.com/info/tisanes.html
About Tisanes:
Tisanes
A confusing attribute of tea is that many of the beverages that are called "tea" are actually not tea.
Herbal teas, which tea experts term Tisanes (a French word for "herbal infusion"), are usually dried flowers, fruits or herbs steeped in boiling water (no actual tea leaves are included).
Historically consumed for medicinal reasons or as a caffeine-free alternative, many Tisanes are beginning to find their own popularity outside the tea world.
Virtually any flower, fruit or herb that can be steeped in water and ingested can become a Tisane. Just take a trip to your local health food store and you'll find dozens of "medicinal herbal teas" boasting a variety of benefits from relaxation to rejuvenation.
Source: http://www.adagio.com/info/tisanes.html
Additionally - there was trade between Egypt and China as far back as 1070BCE.
Coffea canephora and Coffea arabica, the plants from which coffee beans come, are native to western sub-Saharan Africa.
However, despite their origins in the same continent as the Ancient Egyptian civilization, there is no actual evidence of its spread to North African before the mid-fifteenth century CE.
On the subject of tea, Camellia sinensis, from which the popular beverage is brewed, is native Southeast Asia. Tea is believed to have its origins in the Shang dynasty (1600-1046 BCE). Though there are signs of trade between Egypt and China as far back as 1070 BCE, the earliest records of tea in the West is dated to 879 CE. Herbal tea on the other hand, or tisane, has been consumed in some form or another by cultures worldwide since prehistory.
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See as follows - "For our purposes, though, we'll say that this famous plant finds its roots in Egypt. This is because the first recorded mention of Chamomile being chugged was in a document known as the Ebers Papyrus, dating back to 1550 BC. In Ancient Egypt, Chamomile was used to honor the gods, embalm the dead and cure the sick.
Source: Teamuse - http://www.teamuse.com/article_050201...
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Origin: Egypt
Date: Ptolemaic Period, 300-200 B.C.
Acquired: Nomis Antiquities Inc.
Description: A hand-formed terracotta child’s toy depicting a horse with rider. Attractive features retaining most of the original brown and white pigments. It was pierced through the mouth for a snaffle bit, by which the child could drag the toy around.
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"Medicines made from willow and other salicylate-rich plants appear in Egyptian pharonic pharmacology papyri from the second millennium BCE. Hippocrates referred to their use of salicylic tea to reduce fevers around 400 BCE, and were part of the pharmacopoeia of Western medicine in Classical antiquity and the Middle Ages." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...)
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Plutarch's Lives (other topics)Cleopatra: A Life (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Plutarch (other topics)Stacy Schiff (other topics)
For the week of March 23rd – March 29th, we are reading Chapter Two, p. 11 - 42
II: Dead Men Don’t Bite of the book - Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.
The second week's reading assignment is:
Week Two - March 23rd - March 29th
Chapter Two, p. 11 - 42
II: Dead Men Don’t Bite
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on March 16th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on March 23rd.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
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If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
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Introduction Thread
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.
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Bibliography
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--
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I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.
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