Ultimate Popsugar Reading Challenge discussion

This is the October Monthly Group Read discussion for The Complete Maus by Art Spiegelman. This book can be used to fulfill prompt #18 A book that’s been banned or challenged in 2022
Banned Books Week is October 1-7, 2023!
Website: https://bannedbooksweek.org/#:~:text=...

Jennifer is the "official organizer" who graciously volunteered to lead this discussion! THANK YOU, JENNIFER!

Every person reads at a different pace, so please use spoiler tags if you are sharing any plot-related surprises. This allows others to decide whether this information might reveal surprising information they have not yet read.

It can also be helpful to other readers if you post the location within the book noting your progress (chapter and/or page number) with the spoiler. That way, if someone else has read that far they can go ahead and open the spoiler, but if not, they'll know to skip it for now and return later...

TO ADD SPOILER TAGS:
Use this for spoilers, just remove the spaces:
< spoiler > write your spoiler here and close with < / spoiler >

Posts here should only be contributions to discussion about this book.

Hi all! I'm so excited to read this book with you all. Actually, it's a reread for me. I love this book and think it may be the best book I've read on the Holocaust.

Let's start with some basic questions:

Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?
Do you read many graphic novels?
- If you have, what ones have you liked?
-If you haven't, what are your concerns and why have you decided to try this one?
What are your expectations for this book?

I had trouble finding this thread once it moved. Here it is now!

I don't generally seeks out banned books to read, though I feel like it certainly lends the books some notoriety. These things are at such loggerheads. I mean, Maus won the Pulitzer Prize! How can people decide it shouldn't be read?!

I hardly ever read graphic novels, though a long time ago, I read and enjoyed Persepholis, so I'm familiar with and appreciate the graphic memoir.

I have to say, so far, the only thing about this book that makes me uncomfortable is that the father explicitly told the son not to include some things in this book and the son did anyway, even after promising him not to. These weren't big, sweeping disclosures, just details that made the father character seems more "human." But as a biographer and memiorist, I try to steer clear of material that exposes too much of my subject's trust, even when it would really enhance the story.

I also question the decision to make the Jews mice, the police pigs, and the Nazi's cats. I feel like it kind of belittles the situtation, reminiscient of Frog and Toad books for kids, and not sufficient to the situation. Or maybe I just don't like the style. But we'll see..

I'm excited to participate. This will be my first group read!

Is the quote at the beginning of Book II the reason the Jews are depicted as mice?

(view spoiler)["Mickey Mouse is the most miserable ideal ever revealed... Healthy emotions tell every independent young man and every honorable youth that the dirty and filth-covered vermin, the greatest bacteria carrier in the animal kingdom, cannot be the ideal type of animal.. Away with Jewish brutalization of the people! Down with Mickey Mouse! Wear the Swastika Cross!" (hide spoiler)]

This has been on my TBR for quite a while, and 18 is one of the prompts I still have to fill. So this'll be my first group read of 2023.

Doni wrote: "Is the quote at the beginning of Book II the reason the Jews are depicted as mice?"

I always leaned into the idea of mice/cats as prey/predator --> Jews/Nazis, but the quote certainly seems to enforce that.

I just reread this last year (and have a full plate for October) so I'm not participating but I wanted to answer questions anyway!

Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?
I seek out books that sound interesting to me; it's a bonus if they've been banned or challenged. I don't often seek them out specifically because of being banned*. I seem to remember the reasons for banning Maus including "inappropriate language", and possibly nudity? I don't remember much swearing so I'm not sure what language they were referring to (at least in the case of Tennessee).

Do you read many graphic novels? If you have, what ones have you liked?
I do! I've read and loved The Complete Maus, V for Vendetta, The Complete Persepolis, Gender Queer: A Memoir, Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN, Nimona, THE WICKED + THE DIVINE, and so many more.

A lot of people (writers/artists and readers) seem to blur the line between graphic novels and comics - I believe SAGA is considered a comic by its creators, for example.

*Gender Queer was the one I picked up specifically because it had been banned, and it was incredibly moving.

I read part of Maus either earlier this year or last year. I thought it was very thought provoking. The father had a very distinct voice in my head.

1) Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?

As a librarian, I'm all for access to banned books. When the wave of banning was going on during the last two years, I was buying as many as those books a I could to place them in my collections.

Sadly as for reading them, It depends on if I have an interest in it. So, I don't seek them out in a personal way.

I believe the banning (if memory serves) was because of the (view spoiler)[nudity, violence, and suicide. (hide spoiler)]

2) Do you read many graphic novels?

Yes, I read more Japanese manga than I do Western graphic novels. I grew up in a town where the library (yes, the one I work at now) had no graphic novels. I have since remedied the situation.

The only exposure I got was from when I went to the pharmacy as a young child and found them on rack. I still own them.

- If you have, what ones have you liked?

I've liked so many manga that I can't list them here. But I have found a new manhwa (Korean graphic novels) called Villains Are Destined to Die, Vol. 1.

For Western comic books I've loved the Disney's Beauty and the Beast comic book. They had some awesome art that I used as drawing references.

What are your expectations for this book?

If I ever finish reading it, I expect it to get very hard to read because it is based on real experiences. It would probably rip me apart emotionally, which is why I don't read heavy stuff often.

I finished this book last week. It was an incredible memoir. Heartbreaking.

Ashley Marie wrote: "Doni wrote: "Is the quote at the beginning of Book II the reason the Jews are depicted as mice?"

I always leaned into the idea of mice/cats as prey/predator --> Jews/Nazis, but the quote certainly..."

That was my interpretation as well. I also think it plays easily into the dehumanization that the Nazis used against Jews as rats and vermin that needed to be exterminated.

What do others think about the animal stand-ins? Does it make it easier or harder to relate to the characters?

I am continuing to feel uncomfortable with the dynamic between the father and son. The son doesn't like his dad and only seems to want to talk to him about this project of capturing what his dad's experience of the Holocaust was like. His dad is not a very likeable character, so miserly, doesn't get along with any of the people close to him. But I suppose that's supposed to be a layer of the story... having gone through so much, of course he's going to be differently oriented than someone who has never suffered so much. It's raw and honest, for sure, but I still feel like the son used the dad.

Jennifer W wrote: "What do others think about the animal stand-ins? Does it make it easier or harder to relate to the characters?"

I still have the memory of reading it as a kid and almost treating it like a game (had to do something to lighten the subject matter, even if just for myself), figuring out which nationalities were represented by which animals - the French frog always made me laugh.

Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?

I don't seek them out, and yet when I look at GR's Best Banned, Censored, and Challenged Books list (https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1... if anyone's interest) there are an awful lot of them I've read.

But then, I don't think banning and challenging books works quite the same way in the UK as the US, although I may be wrong. I'm not sure how it works in schools and libraries over here, although apparently more librarians are reporting requests to remove or censor books nowadays. We do have an ongoing move towards changing "inappropriate" language and attitudes in older books, which concerns me a lot.

I've not heard my about why Maus, specifically, has been banned in the US, although I can make some guesses given recent history in the US.

Do you read many graphic novels?
- If you have, what ones have you liked?

Very rarely. In recent years, it's mainly been the Rivers of London graphic novels, and I'm slowly working my way through Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Plus I enjoyed Marvel 1602 - also Neil Gaiman!

- If you haven't, what are your concerns and why have you decided to try this one?

I don't have concerns about them, really. I just have other books to read. But Maus has been on my TBR for a long time, as I felt I should read it at some point

What are your expectations for this book?

Nothing specific - but it's piqued my curiosity.

I'm finishing up one more book and then I got this from the library to start. It's been on my TBR forever I think, so anxious and eager to get this one read.

I do enjoy graphic novels when they are done well, but don't necessarily seek them out.

Ones that stand out in my memory are:

Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?
I love reading banned books. I HATE that they're being banned, but they tend to be great reads. I feel like the recent (last couple of years) surge in banning books started with this one. Or maybe the media coverage started with this one. I recall it was banned because of nudity and suicide. I call bullsh*t. I think it was banned because heaven forbid we acknowledge uncomfortable truths about history. I have a hard time understanding how people can still believe the Holocaust was a hoax. It's so sick.

Do you read many graphic novels?
- If you have, what ones have you liked?
I do read graphic novels fairly regularly. This year I read and loved Flamer. Also banned, also excellent.

What are your expectations for this book?
It's been a long time since I read this book for the first time, so I don't remember my initial expectations. I'd say for the reread I expect it to be moving and heartbreaking.

Ok, some more questions:

Do you like the way the story is being told? Does it work having adult Artie interviewing his father and at times breaking up the past storyline with questions and interruptions?

Do you like Artie or his father? Are they people you would like to meet and spend time with? Whether you like them or not, are they compelling to read about? Why?

Yesterday I got to the coat scene. It seemed so strange to me that Valdek would just throw away a coat. He's such a penny pincher and given the deprivations he's been through, a coat could be worth its weight in gold. Yet he threw it out. What do others think of this scene?

I'm about 200 pages in and then got a bad fever thing, but have about a 100 pages left to go. It's such a unique way to tell this story, so many of the little quirks about the familial relationship between Artie and his dad resonate with me and my family, although that includes the hard parts, like the (view spoiler)[mental health of his mom and how that impacted their family and the money/love relationship with Mala. (hide spoiler)]

I don't think I've made it to the coat scene yet, but will report back when I do.

I finished last night and my heart is thoroughly broken. This was so hard to get through at times, especially given the world events. I must've already gotten through the coat scene earlier before my flu haze set in.

I'm hoping to finish book 1 today or tomorrow.

I read Artie's comic of (view spoiler)[ his mom's suicide (hide spoiler)]. I assume this is something he had published elsewhere before writing Maus. I wonder why he chose to put it in here as it was and without changing the people to mice?

I finished book one. I'm surprised they managed to stay hidden for so long. What was your reaction to learning about Anja's journals? What did you think about Artie's reaction?

Do you like the way the story is being told? Does it work having adult Artie interviewing his father and at times breaking up the past storyline with questions and interruptions?

It works for me, as it breaks up a story which I think without them would be even harder to read. It's a difficult story, so the interruptions almost work like comic relief or palette cleansers to me.

Do you like Artie or his father? Are they people you would like to meet and spend time with? Whether you like them or not, are they compelling to read about? Why?

They're definitely compelling, but I'm honestly not sure if I like them. I do feel sorry for Vladek's current wife, though.

Yesterday I got to the coat scene. It seemed so strange to me that Valdek would just throw away a coat. He's such a penny pincher and given the deprivations he's been through, a coat could be worth its weight in gold. Yet he threw it out. What do others think of this scene?

I thought it was rather odd, too, although there might be an element of the father wanting the son to have better than he had. I don't know.

I finished book one. I'm surprised they managed to stay hidden for so long. What was your reaction to learning about Anja's journals? What did you think about Artie's reaction?

I've just finished book one this evening. They do seem to have been relatively fortunate for a very long time. Personally, I thought Artie's reaction was too much and too selfish. I was surprised at the lack of empathy (view spoiler)[for what his father went through (view spoiler)[when Anja died (hide spoiler)]? (hide spoiler)]

I'm starting chapter 2 in book 2. I find it interesting that this book has started with so much focus on Artie and his father. An interesting point, Trish, on Artie's lack of empathy. Artie seems unempathetic on most of the horrors his dad went through. I wonder how much of this he knew before he started interviewing him for the book? Vladek seems like the type that would start *a lot* of sentences with "when I was in the camps...."

Starting book 2, Vladek is again using his skills to stay safe, and even to help others. One thing I've noticed thus far is that Vladek and those closest to him are never (for lack of a better word) 'mean'. They don't rat out others, they aren't selfish when given the chance, they're very trusting. I don't think I questioned this on my previous reading, but now I wonder about it.

Also, I love Artie drawing himself as shrinking to a child when he's feeling guilty, depressed or overwhelmed. Such a neat and smart touch!

Jennifer W wrote: "An interesting point, Trish, on Artie's lack of empathy. Artie seems unempathetic on most of the horrors his dad went through. I wonder how much of this he knew before he started interviewing him for the book? Vladek seems like the type that would start *a lot* of sentences with "when I was in the camps..."

Maybe. Or perhaps, in a more sympathetic interpretation, there was an element of what he was hearing was so horrific that he couldn't process it properly. I don't know.

Although he might equally have not wanted to talk about it - certainly when Anja was alive. It's nothing like the same, but both my father and father-in-law fought in WWII, and neither talked about the more harrowing aspects of that until the end of their lives.

Also, I love Artie drawing himself as shrinking to a child when he's feeling guilty, depressed or overwhelmed. Such a neat and smart touch!

That was a clever touch.

I finished this this morning, and I can completely understand why it won the Pulitzer. I wasn't sure what to make of using the graphic novel format for a story like this, but it worked.

I also get the sense that Artie can't quite reconcile the man he's known as his father his whole life who has been demanding, a spendthrift, and at times downright impossible to deal with, with being a small, scared man in Eastern Europe and the Holocaust.

I'm glad you liked it!

I finished chapter 2 which is more than halfway through book 2. I was just reading Vladek explain the "how to" of the gas chambers. This hurts me to my soul. I *know* the Nazis had killing down to an efficient machine, but reading it spelled out brought it to another level. I'm not sure of another book I've read that explains it like that.

A moral question: I saw a PBS show once that the US had the intel to bomb Auschwitz at the height of the Holocaust. They opted not to. Should they have killed those already there if it would have meant destroying a major piece of the extermination machine?

I've finished. I don't know that I have the words to explain why I love this book so much. It's so devastating yet so powerful. What people can endure and what they can do to others. To answer my earlier question, I don't particularly like Vladek or Artie, but I'm sad to turn the last page and be done with their story.

Or am I? Art also wrote a behind the scenes to this book, MetaMaus: A Look Inside a Modern Classic, Maus, which I have already put on hold at the library.

I also need to read MetaMaus!

I tried to read it before, but it had been too long since I read Maus that even by the first couple of pages I was lost. I want to get right to it now that Maus is fresh in my mind.

I completely agree Jennifer. Their relationship was hard to read at times, and I felt Artie's frustration with his dad, and telling of this story must've been so tough to translate. Really wish we could know how Vladek felt about the finished product.

Answers to initial questions:

Do you seek out banned books to read? Have you heard much about why this book has been banned?
I rather assume anything that includes any diverse characters or something other than a "married" couple (Only one male and one female, of course! Since that is all the 'book banners' believe to be valid!) is probably now banned somewhere in this country. I feel as if we have entered the dark ages all over again and must now fight our way back out...yet again!! Banning it just makes it that much more intriguing for me!

Do you read many graphic novels?
- If you have, what ones have you liked?
-If you haven't, what are your concerns and why have you decided to try this one?
No, I do not. I have read four, all to fulfill challenge prompts. They're okay, but I find I get bored. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but it is true! Somehow I just want the words. I almost find the graphics to be a distraction in my old age.

What are your expectations for this book?
Nothing beyond a book about the Holocaust.

Doni wrote: "I also question the decision to make the Jews mice, the police pigs, and the Nazi's cats. I feel like it kind of belittles the situtation, reminiscient of Frog and Toad books for kids, and not sufficient to the situation. Or maybe I just don't like the style. But we'll see.."
I really didn't like the animal representations either... It just seemed to distract me more than anything.

"I'm excited to participate. This will be my first group read!"
That's great! I would have never read this if not for the monthly group read!

Doni wrote: "Is the quote at the beginning of Book II the reason the Jews are depicted as mice?

[spoilers removed]"

I assume so. Or at least an explanation for it?

Jennifer W wrote: "Yesterday I got to the coat scene. It seemed so strange to me that Valdek would just throw away a coat. He's such a penny pincher and given the deprivations he's been through, a coat could be worth..."
I personally felt it demonstrated Vladek's lack of logical thought at times. He is older with several life-threatening long-term illnesses, and I felt all along he was showing some signs of senility... I felt it made no sense.

Jennifer W wrote: "Also, I love Artie drawing himself as shrinking to a child when he's feeling guilty, depressed or overwhelmed. Such a neat and smart touch!"
That was very smart! IMO. :)

Jennifer W wrote: "A moral question: I saw a PBS show once that the US had the intel to bomb Auschwitz at the height of the Holocaust. They opted not to. Should they have killed those already there if it would have meant destroying a major piece of the extermination machine?"
I'm rather certain the US had much knowledge about such facilities that was never shared with the general public. I think the US (and to a great degree, the world) was 'war-weary' after WWI and determined not to fight another one! My understanding is that WWI was much more vicious and the weapons were much more technologically advanced than ever before, so many more were killed as a result. (I may be wrong, but that has been my impression.) I believe that is the only reason Hitler was allowed to proceed as he did. And here we are 80+ years later still 'fighting the same battles', so to speak. *sigh* Overall, I do not believe the human race is very smart...

Britany wrote: "I completely agree Jennifer. Their relationship was hard to read at times, and I felt Artie's frustration with his dad, and telling of this story must've been so tough to translate.
Really wish we could know how Vladek felt about the finished product"
The book was published 2 years and 8 months before Vladek died. I wonder if he read it?
Edited to update: Correction! According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Spi...) this was completed in 1991 after 13 years of working on it. Vladek died in 1982.

I could empathize with Artie trying to deal with his father. I have no way of knowing what Vladek's life was truly like since I have never been in danger of being hunted down and killed. But I did fault Artie for not using compassion and caring FIRST when dealing with his father.

I particularly appreciated the demonstration that although Vladek had been a victim of EXTREME prejudice, he himself was prejudiced later in life, with evidently no realization that he was propagating the exact same biases that directly affected him, his family, and his friends in the past. That always amazes me. How can that be? I refuse to believe it is instinctual behavior but is rather a learned social construct. However, Artie didn't try to explain this to him, and I could kinda understand his perspective--I think at this point he has kinda had it with his father. While Artie obviously had no similar experience so he could not truly empathize with his father, IMO he should have tried much harder to at least sympathize with him. There is a difference...

It is difficult when you appear to be an exact opposite of your parent (e.g. my mother and me) in most ways. But I do fault Artie for not being kind.

And I kinda got the impression that Artie might be using his father's experience a bit for his own advantage, though IMO the more the Holocaust is described and depicted, the better chance humanity may eventually overcome such bigotry and narrow-mindedness. Though I feel we may be reaching a tipping point with regard to these issues in today's world... I want acceptance, compassion, and respect for all to win!! 👍🤗

Thank you so much for leading, Jennifer!!

You are welcome.

Yes, that scene with the hitchhiker was an interesting one to me, too. I think it happens all the time (those who have been discriminated against discriminating against others), and it boggles my mind. There are groups out there that are specifically Blacks against Antisemitism or Jews against Homophobia because they recognize that if there's persecution against one group there will be persecution against others.

It has also struck me in the 24 hours following finishing this book that the juxtaposition of the current father-son relationship against the Holocaust experiences was, IMO, even better at pointing out the bizarre and horrific aspects of the Holocaust...

I read this after October was over, so I didn't participate in the group read.

I do not read many graphic novels as I am not a very visual person, but I cannot imagine this book being told in any other way. I thought making the characters into animals was a brilliant touch. I will be forever haunted by the sight of the screaming mice, and I would have been further traumatized if they had been drawn as people. It conveyed the horror quite well.

The relationship between father and son often reminded me of my relationship with my mother. I could completely understand Artie's lack of compassion at times and his being exasperated most of the time. It is sad to see, though, and I once again resolve to do better myself.

I am so glad I read this book. I wish everyone would. We definitely have a tough time learning from the past. I agree that the human race isn't very smart. People individually can be wonderful, but collectively are quite awful.

Teri wrote: "I read this after October was over, so I didn't participate in the group read.

I do not read many graphic novels as I am not a very visual person, but I cannot imagine this book being told in any..."
Ah, such valuable insights!!

Like you, I pledge to do better with those I care for each day... It can be very draining...

I picked up MetaMaus: A Look Inside a Modern Classic, Maus from the library. Some of the chapter titles are
Why the Holocaust?
Why comics?
Why mice?

I'm excited to get those answers!

I'm excited for your review Jennifer!

Jennifer W wrote: "I picked up MetaMaus: A Look Inside a Modern Classic, Maus from the library. Some of the chapter titles are
Why the Holocaust?
Why comics?
Why mice?

I'm excited to get those answers!"
I hope you will share those! :)