Dystopian Society discussion

It has come up more than once that there are vagaries in regards to what constitutes a dystopian story and what does not. We have agreed before that apocalyptic stories qualify for this group but what about a zombie apocalypse? How can we avoid going too far off topic?

I decided we should have some ground rules. These are rules I've gone by already but thought I should make a statement and some changes.

What I look for when browsing for books for our polls is just one thing: the word dystopia or dystopian in the "Genres" column on the right of the book page. See the following:



Green arrows mean the tag is a go. However, from now on I plan on being more strict about this. I think horror being the top tag/genre to describe this book should have been a red flag. It is too off-topic for this sub. The other tags listed seem fine to me. In the future I'll consider not only the tags but also what is the top tag.

I want to list a few more books here that I think would be ok for this sub and please let me know if there are certain tags you would like to see red flagged. Take a look at these, all of which I have read:

Love in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction

Lexicon

Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy

Wool Omnibus

Machine of Death: A Collection of Stories About People Who Know How They Will Die

Maybe a few things you would like me to rule out is books that are too traditionally scifi like The Book of Strange New Things was. We have never chosen a short story collection but maybe you want to rule them out preemptively.

Let me know what you think. But please keep in mind that we are probably going to be picking three books a month and the 21st century pick will be less strict than the 20th century classics category. (See the current poll!)

As for those three categories, I will think about it, take your suggestions, and lay down the most strict rules for the classics. The 21st Century and YA books will have the most lenient rules.

Am I missing anything? Please comment! Can't complain later if you don't comment now! :P

I have only read Wool Omnibus, which is both dystopian AND post-apocalyptic. Reading the descriptions of the other books you listed, Love in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction doesn't strike me as dystopian from the description - this phrase "scifi love story" told me no. Both Lexicon and Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy had the right key phase - nameless organization - that to me says dystopia. Machine of Death: A Collection of Stories About People Who Know How They Will Die I'm not sure about. I am not against short story collections, personally. I enjoyed both The End is Nigh and The End is Now and they are apocalyptic and, I think, would fit in with our group.

The Book of Strange New Things COULD be apocalyptic (what's going on with Earth?) or possibly dystopian (what is UP with that corporation?) so even though it is more sci-fi I'm okay with that choice. Just my opinion.

I love discussions like this type. Sometimes trying to tease out what a book is or is not causes more confusion than helps. When a book is tagged by readers, it is how they see the book. Because someone sees the book as sci-fi does not mean it is not dystopia, but it also does not mean it is either. Jane notes she sees Lexicon as dystopia. I do not, I see it more science fiction and action than dystopia. Is she wrong or am I? Can we both be right? Her mentioned criteria is nameless organization. Dystopia to me is the larger society and not just one organization within a society. Yet I cannot say she is wrong because it is her criteria and her opinion and maybe more people will agree with her than me.

To answer a question put up about zombie apocalypse dystopia, I say it is possible to be dystopia. Look at the Mira Grant books. Feed is certainly a zombie book and you can make the case for post apocalyptic fiction, but it is also dystopia because the society has adapted and it is not what the reader would see as either normal or preferred. Using the zombies as a backdrop Mira Grant criticizes society's fascination with blogging and the culture of famous for being famous.

Not all zombie books, science fiction, action books,and post apocalyptic are dystopia, but many are and not thought of such in general.

My suggestion for not going to far is actually very simple. If the book is a commentary about the society and how it is off, then it is probably dystopia. I tend to see it as you know it when you read it. You can always put up the proposed book and ask and see where the chips fall.

Papaphilly wrote..."

Yep. All things that just make my job harder! :P I just felt like Bird Box threw a wrench in the works this month because it really seemed to lean away from what I or our most active members thought of as fitting in to the right categories. It also wasn't a very good book. Adding more books to choose from makes me feel like I have failsafes for this month's situation.

I knew when I was writing I was going to muddy the waters and I didn't want to do that either. There is much bleed over between various sub-genres and that is where the problem happens. It is a tough choice because you do not want to have a topic so tightly defined that you only read classics and miss much of the other great works. However, you also do not want to have it so loose anything can fit the definition. Tough choices. I think every now and then a book is going to miss and it happens. Bird Boxmay be one of those books. Not the end of the world.

I think you may want to have someone with an opinion you trust pre-read a book and make a decision if it fits with this group if you are worried about what is read and you are not sure if it belongs.

Sandhouse wrote: "Papaphilly wrote..."

Yep. All things that just make my job harder! :P I just felt like Bird Box threw a wrench in the works this month because it really seemed to lean away from what I or our most..."

Although Bird Box was not my favorite, nor did I think it fit in with our "Society", I'm not sorry we read it. That's how good discussions are formed - if we all agree all the time how boring would that be? We have read a few that were dystopian that I really didn't care for - but am I sorry I read them? NO! It's not always going to be a book I love every month, but that's why I belong to a book club - to broaden my horizons, and to read things I never would on my own. Blindness was a book I NEVER would have picked or known of on my own, but although it was a tough read it was a very good book.

I think Papaphilly is right - now and then a book is going to miss and it happens.

Jane wrote: "Sandhouse wrote: "Papaphilly wrote..."

Yep. All things that just make my job harder! :P I just felt like Bird Box threw a wrench in the works this month because it really seemed to lean away from ..."

I loved Blindness. Great writer and a wonderful read. Not dystopian in my mind though...

I've read wool omnibus and i think its a great choice. Mostly i only read dystopian so i could actually come up with a list if you guys would like but i know for sure The Chaos Walking series would be great. (i don't know how to do the underline thingy lol im new to this still)

NayDoubleU wrote: "I've read wool omnibus and i think its a great choice. Mostly i only read dystopian so i could actually come up with a list if you guys would like but i know for sure The Chaos Walking series would..."

Suggestions are always welcome!! If you want the underlining - look at the top middle right of the box you type in - see where it says "add book/author"? Just type the name in, then click "add". Do that for each book.

I love Wool Omnibus myself!

Jane wrote: "NayDoubleU wrote: "I've read wool omnibus and i think its a great choice. Mostly i only read dystopian so i could actually come up with a list if you guys would like but i know for sure The Chaos W..."


youre awesome! thanks so much. what did you like most about it?

NayDoubleU wrote: "Jane wrote: "NayDoubleU wrote: "I've read wool omnibus and i think its a great choice. Mostly i only read dystopian so i could actually come up with a list if you guys would like but i know for sur..."

I liked the way the story built, and because of the different protagonists in each of the 5 parts, you got a feel for the YEARS and generations that lived in these silos. I guess I just really liked Hugh Howey's style, because after I bought Wool Omnibusas a Kindle deal of the day, I searched out other books he had written. I read The Hurricane and Half Way Home which I enjoyed very much, and then the 3 parts of Shift and Dust as he published them. I loved Shift, when I finally found out just what had caused the building of the silos and the events that forced the people into them. I just like to know "why". And I thought the last book, Dust, was a great ending to a series I really enjoyed. Some pathos, but some hope.

What did you like most? Have you read Shift & Dust?

Okay, I'll bite.

I thought dystopian stories were strictly limited to those with government control/oppression. I don't count post-apocalyptic stories as dystopian, personally.

Nathan wrote: "Okay, I'll bite.

I thought dystopian stories were strictly limited to those with government control/oppression. I don't count post-apocalyptic stories as dystopian, personally."

You describe the classic definition. Dystopia is actually society that has gone wrong in some fashion, Yet can flourish (Brave New World). It can be an oppressive government (1984) or it can be a normal looking society until you really look at what is going on (Never Let Me Go).

Post-apocalyptic can be dystopia, but it has to focus on the society and not the struggle after the intervening fact that caused the cataclysm. Generally speaking, dystopia is a study of society and a comment on the society studied.

You're right, I stick to the classical definition. I wouldn't classify Never Let Me Go as dystopian at all...it's too gentle a tale, although it is, really.

By the way, has anyone read Logan's Run? I love the film and have asked but no-one seems inclined to answer. Or maybe no-one's read it...???

Nathan wrote: "You're right, I stick to the classical definition. I wouldn't classify Never Let Me Go as dystopian at all...it's too gentle a tale, although it is, really."

I think that Wikipedia gives the best definition of the genre. It is a tough discussion of trying to figure where the boundaries lay. Using Never Let Me Go as the example, you are right that it is a very gentle story until you realize that the society never questions the validity of what is happening. As a matter of fact, that society has gone so far as to think those do not have souls and it is OK to allow it to happen. That is a statement. What makes the novel so good is the fact it is understated the entire time and done in that gentle way. A gentle study to a very horrible world.

I think the best studies are when the abnormal appears to be normal. Logan's Run is another perfect study using the idea of Utopia until you really understand what is happening. A society that is on the surface flourishing and accepted by the populace, but is truly dystopic.

Nathan wrote: "By the way, has anyone read Logan's Run? I love the film and have asked but no-one seems inclined to answer. Or maybe no-one's read it...???"

I just mentioned this and hit the send button when you posted. Talk about synchronicity!

I'm a big believer in synchronicity! I'm an Aquarian/Goat...