The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The Monk - Week 2 (Chapters 3 & 4)

This week we read a rather long-winded (in my opinion) explanation from Raymond to Lorenzo about his involvement with Lorenzo's sister, Agnes.

1) Do you think the tale about the bandits' trap add to the story? Or do you find it distracting?

2) The Bleeding Nun and the Wandering Jew bring the supernatural, a classic gothic element into the story. Did this storyline and/or the characters intrigue you?

FYI: Apparently the episode of The Bleeding Nun was extremely popular and various cheap editions (known as ‘chapbooks’ or ‘gothic blue books’ ) lifted the story from The Monk and presented it as a separate, stand-alone tale.

The Wandering Jew is a mythical immortal man whose legend began to spread in Europe in the 13th century. In the original legend, a Jew who taunted Jesus on the way to the Crucifixion was then cursed to walk the Earth until the Second Coming.

3) We see parallels in the stories of The Bleeding Nun and Agnes. With this in mind do you think The Bleeding Nun portion of the story is foreshadowing a dark ending for Agnes?

4) For the second time in as many weeks, we see an older woman falling in passionate but unrequited love with a younger man. We saw this last week with Leonella and Christoval and we see it again with Rodolpha and Raymond. We frequently see (in literature in general) older men with younger women but not the opposite. As a young man writing this tale why, do you think the author approached those relationships that way? Do you think he was making some kind of point? If so, what?

Since we already knew Agnes was indeed sent to the convent, I was thinking "I bet he runs off with the actual ghost." That part made me laugh, though it was obviously not funny to Raymond.

I found Raymond's story interesting overall, but if I were the developmental editor of this novel I'd be asking the author if various portions of this were really necessary to move the plot along or develop the characters.

Lori wrote: "Since we already knew Agnes was indeed sent to the convent, I was thinking "I bet he runs off with the actual ghost."

I didn't see that coming. Give me a good mystery and I can usually figure out whodunit early on... this went right past me.

Lori wrote: "I found Raymond's story interesting overall, but if I were the developmental editor of this novel I'd be asking the author if various portions of this were really necessary to move the plot along or develop the characters."

Exactly.

I read a modern novel within the last couple of years where the main character was telling another character about what had happened to them (like Raymond is telling Lorenzo) and they had total recall of every minor detail of the story. It kind of annoys me when authors make characters unbelievable due to something like this.

I was in fact more interested in the bandits trap than the bleeding nun, and thought it added some interest to the story. Clearly locking up young women in convents is going to be a Gothic trope, so no wonder so many Abbesses and senior nuns are so unpleasant if that is what had happened to some of them.

I assume that after many travails and dangers Agnes and Raymond will be passionately reunited in time for the baby to be legitimate!

Frances wrote: "so no wonder so many Abbesses and senior nuns are so unpleasant if that is what had happened to some of them."

Maybe it's the compassionate side in me, but you'd think they would be more empathetic. With others who are put in the abbey against their will.

Keeping on with Lori's editing observation, the whole structure of this novel's storytelling would be different today. Modern novels never abandon characters and a plot line for the lengths this one does. The modern novel would have switched chapters between the plot lines and have cut up this long section on Raymond into a few that would be interspersed with the Monk's story.
I had not thought of there being more than one type of book editor or something called a developmental editor, but it does make logical sense. It's good to have Lori's insider look at the book writing process, one especially germane to the storyline involving the Bleeding Nun as I do believe she is a ghost-writer

I tried, but this just does not do it for me.

This entire section of the novel seemed overly long to me, but I suppose that is in keeping with the style of the time. The section about the robbers was an interesting side tale, and established how Raymond came to be acquainted with Agnes. The Bleeding Nun and the Wandering Jew added to the ghostly gothic atmosphere. Unfortunately, I think the length of the sections and the introduction of so many additional characters weakened the overall narrative. It will be interesting to see if any of these characters have an effect on the story as it develops.

I am a little behind due to high workload at my job and a company event that took up part of my weekend last week. However, I finished these chapters yesterday and must admit that I was not so fond about this story-telling in the story as also mentioned by some of you above.
But I liked the robber plot, which made me read through those chapters relatively quickly. I might not be too fond of the ghostly part and Raymond running off with the ghost who then appears to be an ancestor of his. So somehow the 2 dynasties seem to be intertwined with each other for centuries... and now everything is repeated in a way...
I must admit that I might watch the one or other scary movie on TV or in the movie theatre, but I usually do not read those. It felt too unrealistic for me. I can imagine though that in a more superstitious and less enlightened world this must have felt more scary than it does for me.
I was also thinking of a happy ending for Raymond and Agnes before having the baby, but who knows - maybe Agnes will be a second bleeding nun.

Regarding the question about the love interests of elder women in younger men, I was wondering whether Matthew Lewis might have experienced such advances himself.
Considering that many women were married off in rather loveless marriages at an early age they might want to experience some of what they missed. It is kind of following a dream they could not fulfill when they were at that young age, and trying to live it now after having done their duties.
I had to think a little of Les Liaisons Dangereuses in which this theme also comes up.

Detlef wrote: "I tried, but this just does not do it for me."

I'm sorry to hear that. This one has been on my TBR list for so long, I'm really glad to be reading it.

Nancy wrote: "This entire section of the novel seemed overly long to me, but I suppose that is in keeping with the style of the time. The section about the robbers was an interesting side tale, and established h..."

I thought the entire book started slow with a lot of information that if edited out wouldn't hurt the story in the least.

Hedi wrote: "Regarding the question about the love interests of elder women in younger men, I was wondering whether Matthew Lewis might have experienced such advances himself."

Interesting thought, it's certainly possible. I was wondering if there was an older woman attraction for Lewis.