The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The Gothic Project - The Monk - Week 3 (Chap 5 - 7
- or - Vol II Chap II, III & IV)

1) Lorenzo and Raymond carry out plans to rescue Agnes, including obtaining a papal bull, but the Prioress thwarts them at every turn, telling eventually them that Agnes is dead. In the long run, do you think they will believe her and leave the situation alone or do you think they will come up with plans to verify her story?

2) I noticed when I was reading that Ambrosio blames Matilda for their sexual activity, much the same way Adam blames Eve for giving him the apple. Any thoughts about this?

3) Ambrosio now feels more sympathetic towards Agnes (and her sexual sin) and decides to plead Agnes' case before the Prioress until Matilda points out that this change might bring down suspicion upon him, he agrees and drops the subject. Do you think he will change his mind? Why or why not?

4) It surprised me how quickly Ambrosio's lust for Matilda wanes and how quickly he sets his sights on another woman (Antonia). He takes advantage of her request for a confessor for her mother to break yet another vow (never to leave the monastery) and makes advances toward Antonia. Were you surprised by this? If I followed the timeline correctly it was only a day or so from his "fall" with Maltida to the time he's lusting after another woman. Do you think this will be how he views all women going forward?

5) Given how spiritual, chaste, and pious Ambrosio starts in the story he seems to be falling further and further down the rabbit hole. Under Matilda's influence, he is now introduced to occult practices and he seems to be okay with this. Is this simply a matter of human nature? Or do you think there is more to it? What of Ambrosio's personal responsibility for his actions?

Ambrosio's faults and weaknesses are one of the most interesting parts of the story. His overwhelming pride leads him to think he can get away with his affair with Matilda and his lust for Antonia, and he is even (finally) convinced that black magic can be forgiven because he will live long enough to repent and be forgiven. Good luck with that! I was also intrigued by the change in Matilda from an adoring woman in love to a practitioner of dark arts. Both Ambrosio and Matilda better watch out for the Inquisition!
As for the fate of Agnes, while it doesn't look good, I wonder if the author is leading us down a path of hopelessness only to surprise us in the end with a miracle. Certainly the parts about the power of the Prioress, the religious superstition of the day, and the mystery of where Agnes could be heighten the gothic tension of the story. Is she dead? Being tortured? Held by the Inquisiton?

Ambrosio is a vile person. If he succeeds in raping Antonia (he already tried), I hope he dies a horrible death.

As for Matilda, I'm getting some "Sorrows of Satan" vibes here. The changes in her manner have been too abrupt for her to be simply a lovesick woman who happens to have an education. She seems to be "leading" Ambrosio (and NO, I am not excusing him at all - he is quick to follow and he is responsible for his actions and intentions). I wonder if she was sent to tempt him because of his arrogance.

Matilda is much more powerful and manipulative than she first appeared. The devoted lover has slowly morphed into the devoted practitioner of the black arts who can even hold sway over the devil.
As to the Adam and Eve comparison - it's inapplicable. Matilda is no Eve. She's more of the serpent. She is far from a naive co-sinner. She is manipulative and intended to lead Ambrosio into sin. The ultimate motive for her manipulation is still at issue, an issue that does pique my curiosity.
Matilda wouldn't want you to blame Ambrosio for his own actions. Yes, he should be responsible for his own actions but he is weak and malleable and Matilda would feel offended if you failed to properly credit her manipulative abilities in convincing Ambrosio to 'sin.'

Nancy wrote: "Ambrosio's faults and weaknesses are one of the most interesting parts of the story. His overwhelming pride leads him to think he can get away with his affair with Matilda and his lust for Antonia,..."

Agreed-how quickly he goes from succumbing to temptation to engage in consensual sexual activity to becoming a predator and rapist. I was also surprised at how quickly his interest in the beautiful Mathilda waned-presumably a craving for innocence and virtue that he can defile.

Lori wrote: "Ambrosio is a vile person. If he succeeds in raping Antonia (he already tried), I hope he dies a horrible death.

As for Matilda, I'm getting some "Sorrows of Satan" vibes here. The changes in her ..."

Ooh good point. We haven't got a backstory about how she managed to get herself introduced to the monastery as a wealthy young man, and her fantastical sorcery suggests years of study not likely in one who appears so young.

Brian E wrote: "Matilda wouldn't want you to blame Ambrosio for his own actions. Yes, he should be responsible for his own actions but he is weak and malleable and Matilda would feel offended if you failed to properly credit her manipulative abilities in convincing Ambrosio to 'sin.'
..."

Perhaps, and yet we know that Ambrosio is the senior member of his order, commands respect from all the other monks and from the world at large-I struggle to accept him as "weak and malleable". I think he has simply discovered physical pleasure and has no wish to regain command over himself/deny himself anything.

You are right, Frances. Ambrocio is not an overall weak and malleable person. But that also supports my assertion that Ambrocio's taste of sin is due to Matilda's efforts more than his own.
Ambrocio apparently was able to resist the temptations of physical pleasure for many years (how old is he anyway?) Yet he easily fell to the temptations of physical pleasure that Matilda offered. My main point was to give Matilda the credit. Of course, once Matilda provided him the gateway 'drug,' Ambrocio's own nature draws him quickly to the hard-stuff.

Lori wrote: "Ambrosio is a vile person. If he succeeds in raping Antonia (he already tried), I hope he dies a horrible death."

What gets me is the excuses he makes and blaming (at least in his thoughts) Matilda.

Frances wrote: "I think he has simply discovered physical pleasure and has no wish to regain command over himself/deny himself anything."

Agreed.

(1) ... In the long run, do you think they will believe her and leave the situation alone or do you think they will come up with plans to verify her story?

I was amazed by the cruelty of the prioress. First in the way she obviously dealt with Agnes, but also the way she is talking/ lying to Agnes's brother. It seems that despite her religious vows and the morality preached by the church she can do anything to keep her and her convent's reputation. There is quite some hypocrisy here and in the whole book.
I was asking myself the above questions, and would follow them up though not knowing what measures and what authority could help to get to the bottom of what happened at St. Clare's. I thought that an edict of the Pope would be sufficient to humble a Prioress, but obviously it was not enough, I think Lorenzo will not give up that quickly.
BTW this section reminded me of Diderot's "Memoir of a Nun" in which the life in a convent is also under some scrutiny.
This must have been very controversial at the time.

(2) I noticed when I was reading that Ambrosio blames Matilda for their sexual activity, much the same way Adam blames Eve for giving him the apple. Any thoughts about this?

I think that is his easy way out... This way he does not have to feel responsible for his own actions. He hesitated a little with getting involved with the dark arts, but when Matilda nicely confirms that it is her performing these and not him, it is enough of an excuse for him. So he can blame her for that afterwards too. Maybe in case of the inquisition he will be able to point at her as the demonic seducer and that he was just the victim of this plot.
I agree with the above that Matilda is not very innocent. She has all kinds of tools to get to what she wants. She has not been seduced like Eve by the serpent. She is rather the real seducer.

There seems to be more about her history that we do not really know yet. I wonder whether we will find that out.

3) Ambrosio now feels more sympathetic towards Agnes (and her sexual sin) and decides to plead Agnes' case before the Prioress until Matilda points out that this change might bring down suspicion upon him, he agrees and drops the subject. Do you think he will change his mind? Why or why not?

I do not think he will change his mind. As he is a symbol of virtue he must stand for the integrity of the institution. I do not think he really sees his hypocrisy and wants to atone for that. It might even make him harsher as he might see himself in the other sinners and wants to punish them - if you understand what I mean.

Were you surprised by this? If I followed the timeline correctly it was only a day or so from his "fall" with Maltida to the time he's lusting after another woman. Do you think this will be how he views all women going forward?

I was quite surprised about this sudden change. I think it was about a week if I remember this correctly from the section that I read yesterday. Matilda becomes nothing more than an object for his lust and sexual relief. He does not care for her at all. On the other hand it is mentioned that he felt something else for Antonia. That it was not just the sexual desire to own her, but who knows - when he almost rapes her he does not seem to give any thought about her emotions and her feelings.

I was positively surprised by Elvira in this whole section. She had not really shown up as a character so far except in relation to Antonia's background, but she - despite being the sickly person, almost on her deathbed - sees through Ambrosio and the danger he is for her daughter. I wonder what the black magic can do. Will this be the fight between good and evil, angels and demons?

And then another thing struck me and that was that Elvira seemed to know Ambrosio's voice. Can it be that she might know Ambrosio's father without realizing it at the moment?

You have all already moved on. So these are just my speculations 4 pages before the end of the section of this thread. I will continue reading and hopefully finish last week's section by the day after tomorrow. ;-)

Now I have just finished the remaining pages of this section and must admit that I am a little confused. The magic gives him a tool to put Antonia to sleep so that he can rape her during that.
It is up to him to use this tool. Could he still put the blame on Matilda instead of taking responsibility for his actions? It is probably more of a rhetorical question.

Hedi wrote: " It seems that despite her religious vows and the morality preached by the church she can do anything to keep her and her convent's reputation."

Yes! It ticks me off when people in power use said power for completely inappropriate reasons. And protecting a reputation is not what religious orders are all about. (Can you hear the recovering Catholic talking? lol)