The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The Gothic Project - The Monk - Week 4 (Chap VIII, IX, X
- or - Vol III Chap I, II & III)

1) We are now seeing a lot of anti-Catholic themes in the novel become especially pronounced at this point. Do you think this is because this book is "gothic" and the author felt the need to include the anti-Catholic rhetoric or did the author have some other reason for this?

2) Ambrosio's depraved nature also becomes truly clear; he not only elicits demonic assistance in his mission of raping a young woman, but he also kills her mother. I fail to see how this is "love." It is also puzzling to me that Ambrosio has turned on a dime and almost completely turned his back on everything he knows and believes. Why do you think there is such a change in one who, by all appearances, seems so devoted to God and so pious?

3) We learn that Agnes was forced to drink poison. The Prioress has gone from bad to worse. Do you think her death at the hands of the mob just?

4) What do you think of Mother St. Ursula? Is she simply trying to use Agnes' death as something she can profit from? Or do you think she is sincerely repentant due to the guilt she must feel in not stopping the Prioress?

5) Any idea who the woman Lorenzo finds under the statue of St. Clare is? What part could she play at this point with only two chapters left in the book? Or is she simply another victim and example of the Prioress' evil?
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Please Note: The reading schedule has been updated to include Carmilla by J. Sheridan Le Fanu & Dracula by Bram Stoker.

Lori wrote: "As for Matilda, I'm getting some "Sorrows of Satan" vibes here...."

I'm 2/3 of the way through the Week 5 readings and the Sorrows of Satan reference is getting more apt. Now I can't get that book reference out of my head.
I do think that this book is better written and plotted than "Sorrows" but still has that same supernatural pop-trashy tone. That's not necessarily a negative comment on it though.
I'm much more apt to read and enjoy historical pop-trash novels than contemporary pop-trash because of the historical insight it gives one into the minds of the people of the time. I enjoy and value that insight. Whereas, any insight into the minds of the people of this time that reading contemporary pop-trash gives would only serve to further depress me.

Brian E wrote: " Lori wrote: "As for Matilda, I'm getting some "Sorrows of Satan" vibes here...."

I never finished that book, I've been meaning to get back to it.

Brian E wrote: " Lori wrote: "As for Matilda, I'm getting some "Sorrows of Satan" vibes here...."

I'm 2/3 of the way through the Week 5 readings and the Sorrows of Satan reference is getting more apt. Now I can'..."

I agree-Mathilda being so willing to support Ambrosio to seduce and even to kidnap Antonia suggests to me she is either Satan himself or some hellish Angel.

I'm assuming the captive is Agnes, and with the babe-in-arms I don't understand why Lorenzo doesn't immediately leap to the same conclusion.

Pretty wild that the entire convent is burned down! What I hadn't expected from this novel was its very strong anti-clerical/religious orders sentiment-seems strong for the time.

I was quite surprised that Ambrosio had no hesitation in spending the night in the ghost room-as Elvira's murderer he would obviously be the target of her ghost.

Does anyone know if there ever was such a potion to rend people apparently dead? I'm assuming this was the same "potion" used in Romeo and Juliet.

I was surprised by the nun being torn apart. While I'm still wishing for that kind of death for Ambrosio (or worse), I thought it might have been better for the nun to go to trial. With the riots and fire, a lot of innocent nuns also died.

And yes, I was also surprised Lorenzo didn't immediately suspect that the captive was Agnes.

Gem wrote: "1) We are now seeing a lot of anti-Catholic themes in the novel become especially pronounced at this point. Do you think this is because this book is "gothic" and the author felt the need to include the anti-Catholic rhetoric or did the author have some other reason for this? "

I'm not sure of the answers to your question Gem but the more I read this book and the more anti-Catholic elements entered I couldn't help but comment to myself that Lewis was only able to write and publish this as a successful novel because he was in England. Lewis would not have been able to write this or sell it successfully in a Catholic country like Italy, Spain or probably even in post-Revolutionary France. I imagine there were a lot of British readers who would love the anti-Catholic elements as confirmation of their attitudes toward the Catholic Church.

Frances wrote: "I'm assuming the captive is Agnes, and with the babe-in-arms I don't understand why Lorenzo doesn't immediately leap to the same conclusion.

Pretty wild that the entire convent is burned down! Wha..."

I was also thinking that the captive should be Agnes and wondered whether the Prioress might have used the same potion on her as Ambrosio on Antonia in order to convince most of the other Nuns of her death. Her bundle that she wanted to take with her is probably her baby. However, it seems strange that thez would not have recognized each other at all. I mean it was dark and gloomy and maybe the faces were hidden, but would they not have recognized each other by their voices?
And the baby... is it dead? It seems very quiet. With the mother not having eaten for days and not having drunk much I guess the baby is (almost) dead.

1) We are now seeing a lot of anti-Catholic themes in the novel become especially pronounced at this point. Do you think this is because this book is "gothic" and the author felt the need to include the anti-Catholic rhetoric or did the author have some other reason for this?
Lewis grew up when a Catholic Relief Bill was issued. This was in 1778. There were a lot of anti-Catholic sentiments in the country, which even led to the Gordon Riots in London in 1780. So Catholics were allowed more rights again after having been deprived of them for a long period, but there were a lot of prejudices against Catholics. I assume that this has something to do with it.
As I have mentioned in another thread the section about the cruelty in convents reminded me of Diderot's Memoirs of a Nun, which is - of course - not that extreme, but still rather critical of those institutions.

3) We learn that Agnes was forced to drink poison. The Prioress has gone from bad to worse. Do you think her death at the hands of the mob just?

This was really abominably cruel. I do not believe she deserved and nobody deserves such a cruel death. I think the whole riot is abominable. The actions of a few should not lead to the punishment of all related to them, including the other, innocent nuns, buildings, art. It is a kind of storm of the convent like the storm of the Bastille that started the French Revolution.

4) What do you think of Mother St. Ursula? Is she simply trying to use Agnes' death as something she can profit from? Or do you think she is sincerely repentant due to the guilt she must feel in not stopping the Prioress?

In order to find a glimpse of hope in mankind, I hope that she is sincere. At least she made that impression and it cannot have been easy to have such a determined and cruel Prioress. So I think she feels very guilty for not having stopped this. But when the committee decided on Agnes's fate it was 9 to 3 in votes, which means that there were quite some nuns who did not want or did not dare to oppose the Prioress's wishes.

Frances wrote: I agree-Mathilda being so willing to support Ambrosio to seduce and even to kidnap Antonia suggests to me she is either Satan himself or some hellish Angel.."

I was thinking pretty much the same. She is almost whispering every action into his ear that makes it sound sweet and fair. It is almost as if she wants to get him to the other side away from virtue and morality, as a kind of victory that even the most virtuous person can be seduced to rape, kill and abandon everything he believed in.