Reading the Chunksters discussion

And now we have the conclusion twelve years later by Alex's daughter, Rachael.

I have so very much to say about this section! Starting with WHAT IN THE HELL WAS ANNA THINKING?!?!?! I can't believe she got back together with Simon! And did she actually think that through? What if she had to leave him again? What lengths would he go to then? It's completely and totally insane. As for Simon? He has this plan to kidnap Simon so that Anna will see that her marriage to Joe is a sham and then she'll come back to him. It's so illogical that he's obviously off his rocker. But then it works? It completely reinforces his delusion. I lost all respect for Anna in this section.

So, on to the text. I felt very sorry for Alex in this section since it became obvious that this totally destroyed him. Rachael even says that they knew Simon primarily as "that nut who destroyed your father". Then we have the comments where he felt he had failed Simon. He saw your obsession with Anna as an illness, or a symptom of one. He was supposed to cure you of it. When you were acquitted and free and everybody, and especially you, started behaving as though you really had been having an affair with her, he felt defeated, maybe even cheated.

I thought it was interesting that as Rachael was telling his history in Czechoslovakia, it mentioned specifically that his parents had numbers on their arms. In between attempts to find out who was left, they had to go about their lives, with the numbers still on their arms... This caught my eye because of the scene from Anna's POV where the jeweler also had numbers on his arm. What's the significance of mentioning this twice?

In the section where she was talking about Mitch, did you guys wonder why he hated Mitch so much? He also refers to him as a gambler even though Mitch specifically stated he doesn't have a gambling problem. His contempt is bad enough that when he finds out the Mitch hates being called Mitch and wants to be called Dennis, he then proceeds to always call him Mitch. Why this contempt? Especially since Dennis' anger was directed at someone that Alex already didn't like? Mitch's attempted suicide was absolutely awful. I felt so bad for this man already and to find out that it came down to this? It's too horrible. Also, I'm not sure what happened to him. It says that Alex saved his life but I thought it said something about Mitch would never recover. So was he okay or was he a vegetable?

I liked Rachael's interactions with Gina. Partially because we were getting Gina's POV and partially because she cared about Alex and I like the idea of Alex's daughter having a relationship of some kind with Gina. I also liked that when she was talking about the trial, she very reluctantly admitted that there was a tendency for people to identify with him. This was a strange thing about Simon and I think we all felt it. It's also interesting that Gina realized that Alex wasn't well. The situation with the money was both absurd and fascinating. Where did she think it had come from? What was wrong with him giving it to her? Why didn't she believe him when he explained? It's bizarre, but it was the truth. Was he just so far gone that she couldn't believe the truth? Admittedly, pressing it on her wasn't a very good idea. Maybe he should have explained and asked her opinion about what to do but he meant well.

Poor Sam. In Joe and Anna's section when it talked about Sam's bed wetting, I actually wondered if this was the incident that caused it. We know Simon didn't do anything so it can't be molestation. But watching your father beat a man to a pulp? It's horrible. He knew he had only one father. His father was the guy whose fists could turn a man's face to liquid before a child's horrified and disbelieving eyes. Talk about traumatic. And then it goes on to talk about how Joe drank afterwards and screwed every woman he could find. Loudly. He says it was as though his father was getting them out of a catalogue, trying them out, then returning them. This image made me laugh. Mostly because I can see Joe doing this.

Sam's reaction to Rachael wanting to help people sign up to vote was weird to me. I was wrong because, while there probably was some element of insecurity in his response, it was far from what all this was about. I was hurt because he'd exposed in me a need to find something to belong to. But he was hurt too. He was hurt and angry that I needed to belong to something bigger than us. Shades of Simon all over again? This strikes me as very codependent and how can you possibly go through life with you and your partner only belonging to each other. This like Simon thinking that he and Anna created each other in their own images. It's disturbing.

Joe. The least likeable bastard in this book. I admit that I had a perverse moment of pleasure when I saw that he was working at a car lot. Oh, I'm mean, but this is fantastic. What a come down to his ego. So then Rachael walks in and introduces herself, name wise anyway, and Joe makes me gag again with his "That's a beautiful name. Almost biblical. First, the term biblical is often used in a sexual way, so I could almost see the leer on his creepy face. Then there's the added benefit of the story of Rachael and Leah. To me this was saying "I want to f**k you AND your sister." It was creepy and eww. Then Rachael finally gets around to telling him who she is and he says I was the f**king victim in that circus." Same old Joe. Everyone is making his life hell, it's always about him. I hate that man.

I liked the emphasis on Alex's believe that if you save one life it's as if you've saved the whole world. I've seen this idea before and I've always liked it. If Alex believed this then I can see why he was so disturbed by both Simon and Mitch. He must have felt like such a failure.

Does anyone think Alex's death was a suicide? MAOI's are actually pretty wicked and he really should have known better. It's amazing the number of medicines, both prescription and over the counter, that say "Do not take this if you are taking an MAOI". It's just not something to mess around with. But at the same time, it sounds like he was pretty messed up, depressed, and feeling like a failure, so his judgment could have been compromised. And it's a weird way to kill yourself. So even knowing how bad MAOI's are, and knowing that he should have known better, I'm unsure about what his intent was.

Angelique was okay! Yay! I was so happy to hear that. Although it's funny how the narrator got another stab in at the health care system.

Overall I really loved this book. I think I probably should have gone with four stars but I think the author did what he set out to accomplish, and he did it quite brilliantly. So in my book he earned that fifth star. What a book!

Sarah wrote: "...WHAT IN THE HELL WAS ANNA THINKING?!?!?!......As for Simon? He has this plan to kidnap Simon so that Anna will see that her marriage to Joe is a sham and then she'll come back to him. It's so illogical that he's obviously off his rocker. But then it works? It completely reinforces his delusion."

I know!! We were slowly being fed clues that Simon ended up marrying Anna, but I couldn't believe it in the end! I mean, I know I wanted her to save him, but to actually end up marrying him?? No! It is so irrational! And of course they are going to lie to Sam about them getting back together, because their story is so out of the ordinary and so bit creepy (my step dad was my kidnapper), that it's completely insane and embarrassing. Nobody would want to have their parents to have that history.

Rachael was telling his history in Czechoslovakia, it mentioned specifically that his parents had numbers on their arms.

I was completely expecting Alex's father to be the jeweler. But then either he wasn't or we weren't told that he was and we are left to assume? Everyone was so connected in this story that I just assumed that they would be the same person. If they aren't, I don't know what the significance of telling the story is.

In the section where she was talking about Mitch, did you guys wonder why he hated Mitch so much?

You know, I'm not quite sure. I had Angelique in the back of my mind, thinking that perhaps we would find out that Alex had a thing for her, but that didn't turn out to be the case. I also noticed where Alex referred to Mitch as a gambler when he clearly wasn't. And I wonder if Alex's hatred for Mitch led him to not really see how deeply depressed and lonely his life was, that he was a serious suicide risk? The scene where Alex finds Mitch was heartbreaking and I'm glad he was able to save him. I was under the impression that Mitch would physically be OK, that no long-term damage had been done by taking the pills, but that he still was going to have a rough time at healing his mental state.

The situation with the money was both absurd and fascinating. Where did she think it had come from? What was wrong with him giving it to her? Why didn't she believe him when he explained?

Yeah, that was an odd situation for both parties. And when Rachael was telling the story, she said something along the lines of "each story made sense when told from their perspective", meaning Alex and Gina's perspectives. It was exactly what I had been thinking at the time, how each POV seemed rational. But yeah, I wished Gina and Alex had had a bit more communication and been able to resolve the money issue. I can see how Gina would think that Alex was not in his right mind and not even want to know where the money "really" came from since his story sounded so far-fetched and he had already crossed the line with continually contacting Anna about the case and getting overly involved personally with Simon. Perhaps Gina saw this incident as the final straw and thought that it would be easier on her emotionally if she just ended it at that point instead of getting further involved.

Sarah wrote: "Poor Sam. In Joe and Anna's section when it talked about Sam's bed wetting, I actually wondered if this was the incident that caused it. We know Simon didn't do anything so it can't be molestation. But watching your father beat a man to a pulp? It's horrible. He knew he had only one father. His father was the guy whose fists could turn a man's face to liquid before a child's horrified and disbelieving eyes. Talk about traumatic."

That quote was definitely horrifying. It was as if Anna and Simon were making Sam's situation even worse by constantly insisting to Sam that his "real" father was this drunk man who is angry and pulverizes people.

Sam's reaction to Rachael wanting to help people sign up to vote was weird to me....Shades of Simon all over again?

Yes, totally what I thought. It was like Rachael was not allowed to have a life outside of the circle of "Sam and Rachael".

Joe. The least likeable bastard in this book. I admit that I had a perverse moment of pleasure when I saw that he was working at a car lot.

I smiled when I found out he was working in a car lot. And the entire encounter with Rachael was disgusting. Ugh. But, I have to admit that I did feel a tinge of sadness for Joe at the end when Rachael asked him why Joe never told Sam the truth about what happened, that Simon had kidnapped Sam and the actual history. Joe told her that he loved his son, and his son liked Simon, so why ruin that? Even though Joe is a despicable man himself, he still has a heart for his son, even though he has absolutely no common sense when it comes to showing it.

I liked the emphasis on Alex's believe that if you save one life it's as if you've saved the whole world....If Alex believed this then I can see why he was so disturbed by both Simon and Mitch. He must have felt like such a failure.

I like that belief too, and I don't know if I've ever heard it before. I wonder if Alex still felt like a failure because even though he did save Mitch, he didn't save the person who was so much like himself - Simon. I think Rachael said that Alex saw so much of himself in Simon, and his sessions with Simon were almost like Alex was in therapy himself. So his failure to save Simon was, in essence, also a failure to save himself.

Does anyone think Alex's death was a suicide?

I do believe that Alex's death was a suicide. But I guess I'm not certain since you bring up a good point about how he was depressed and messed up himself so he could have just made a mistake? But the night that Rachael sat on his knee, he had that despondent look about him (that she remembers, anyway), so I took that to mean he knew the end was near.

Angelique was okay! Yay!

Towards the end of the book I was getting dismayed that we wouldn't hear what happened to her! But then the author pulled through for us. :)

Overall I really loved this book. I think I probably should have gone with four stars but I think the author did what he set out to accomplish, and he did it quite brilliantly.

I loved this book too. I technically gave it 4 1/2 stars. It's better then 4 stars, but I reserve the 5 star books for ones I could see myself perhaps wanting to reread someday, not that I have the time to reread books with all the unread books out there, but that is my criteria just the same.

Great pick, Sarah! What a great way to kick off the Literary Readathon! :)

I enjoyed the final chapter very much. In the very first scene we finally get to know poor Empson's fate. I'm glad that the author remembered about him and didn't casually get rid of the dog.
In the beginning I was, of course, desperately curious as to what has become of everyone in 12 years. I didn't like the outcome of Anna and Simon marrying, only for different reasons, as I didn't think she was worthy of him, haha. I would have preferred to see him marry Angela, oh well. At least she survived the accident.
I was very much afraid that we wouldn't learn much about some of the other POVs, but fortunately we are provided with answers for (almost) everything. I was again very sorry for Dennis and felt that Alex' dislike for him was irrational. And of course I felt that the fate of this story's true victim, Alex, was extremely sad. I also enjoyed new people's input here, namely Rachael and Sam who is turning into a little Simon it seems. It was nice to hear Gina's memories too. Funny, in the last section I was almost sure she would be happy with dr. Klima while Simon would commit a suicide, but it turned out differently. And I liked our last glimpse at Joe. I didn't think that working with cars was degrading or humiliating him, I actually believe he is more happy working with something substantial and not as crazy as the stock market. And he loves cars.

Sarah wrote: "The situation with the money was both absurd and fascinating. Where did she think it had come from? What was wrong with him giving it to her? Why didn't she believe him when he explained? It's bizarre, but it was the truth."
I understand her perfectly. Here she was madly in love with the man and he appeared at her door with a bag of money ? How extremely indelicate. She must have thought it a bribe and her feelings were hurt. Could it be that he didn't love her but was with her solely for the sake of Simon? I believe that was her line of thinking, and as she explains later, for an advocate a bag of money is something very compromising and she would never have accepted it.

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: " And of course they are going to lie to Sam about them getting back together, because their story is so out of the ordinary and so bit creepy (my step dad was my kidnapper), that it's completely insane and embarrassing. Nobody would want to have their parents to have that history."
Sam of all people knew that it wasn't a true kidnapping because he retained memories of the events and he hadn't felt kidnapped or threatened. And how about 'my dad had to stay in maximum security prison for 1,5 years because my mum refused to save him. He still has nightmares and screams in his sleep' ? I know that he broke the law, but morally the case was extremely ambiguous and not as straightforward as 'he kidnapped Sam and that was that'.


Sarah wrote: " Also, I'm not sure what happened to him. It says that Alex saved his life but I thought it said something about Mitch would never recover. So was he okay or was he a vegetable?"
I think he would recover, didn't catch the vegetable part and he was my favourite character in this novel.

Sarah wrote: "Does anyone think Alex's death was a suicide"
I'm pretty sure it was a suicide. How selfish of Simon not to meet his friend after the trial, he might have foreseen what was about to happen and helped somehow.

Linda wrote: "Angelique was okay! Yay!

Towards the end of the book I was getting dismayed that we wouldn't hear what happened to her! But then the author pulled through for us. :)."

I didn't feel she was particularly okay, she was crippled for life and still so young, the poor thing.

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Rachael was telling his history in Czechoslovakia, it mentioned specifically that his parents had numbers on their arms.

I was completely expecting Alex's father to be the jeweler. But then either he wasn't or we weren't told that he was and we are left to assume? Everyone was so connected in this story that I just assumed that they would be the same person. If they aren't, I don't know what the significance of telling the story is."

Only that both the jeweller and Alex Klima's parents survived the concentration camp and Simon with his compassion and look at things was very likely to befriend such people. This might also have been part of his friendship with Alex as they used to have quite lengthy discussions concerning their world view beliefs and so on.

Overall, a great read and a great choice of the book. Thank you, Sarah, as I have never heard of this particular author and now I'm sure I want to read his other books. Apart from everything, I particularly enjoy his leftist ideas expressed throughout the novel. (like for instance Whether temporary or not, for some time now the culture of every man for himself has so triumphed, that any concern for the common good is referred to a psychiatrist. This last sentence coming, of course, from the journal of Dr Klima).

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...WHAT IN THE HELL WAS ANNA THINKING?!?!?!......As for Simon? He has this plan to kidnap Simon so that Anna will see that her marriage to Joe is a sham and then she'll come back to h..."

Sarah wrote: "I have so very much to say about this section! Starting with WHAT IN THE HELL WAS ANNA THINKING?!?!?! I can't believe she got back together with Simon! And did she actually think that through? ..."

Ladies, I have two words and two words only for you....EMPSON LIVES!!!!!!!!!! I was beyond elated to find out Simon's dog was well taken care of. He's the only thing I was worried about and everybody else can be kicked to the curb.

At the end of Part 7, I was beside myself at how Anna was hesitating in answering the question. I knew she was going to end up lying for Simon, but what threw me over the edge was finding out she had married Simon as well. I'm sorry, it was an Eat, Pray, Love moment for me and I absolutely despised that book-After everything we went through with these characters, we end up at square one, the beginning; especially for Anna. On we go with the cyclical cycles we create and how they transcend onto others, like Sam. He too, from what I read, begins to see the world and act on it through the eyes and influence of Simon-How sad.

In spite of everything, I think it's perfect Anna and Simon ended up with one another...They deserve each other. Each morally reprehensible in their own way, so be it if they come back to one another. Listen, I'm not super invested in any of these characters-They are all flawed in my mind...Some more than others, granted, making them all the more human, and that's it. I'm going to shelve this book, and the characters in it (3 1/2, so 4 stars surely).

Ami wrote: "Ladies, I have two words and two words only for you....EMPSON LIVES!!!!!!!!!! I was beyond elated to find out Simon's dog was well taken care of. He's the only thing I was worried about and everybody else can be kicked to the curb."

LOL! I'm trying to read Ami and Teanka's posts in between running around here at work, not having time to post properly, but I had to laugh at your comment here, Ami!! :D

I agree the characters are flawed, but aren't we all? What I liked most about this novel was how it allowed us to see the events from a multitude of perspectives, and if not agree with than at least understand each point of view. The outcome is not as important as the journey, or so I feel.

Nearly midnight here, Linda, so I sympathise with your difficulties (I managed to write something only after coming home).

Joe. The least likeable bastard in this book. I admit that I had a perverse moment of pleasure when I saw that he was working at a car lot. Oh, I'm mean, but this is fantastic. What a come down to his ego. So then Rachael walks in and introduces herself, name wise anyway, and Joe makes me gag again with his "That's a beautiful name. Almost biblical. First, the term biblical is often used in a sexual way, so I could almost see the leer on his creepy face. Then there's the added benefit of the story of Rachael and Leah. To me this was saying "I want to f**k you AND your sister." It was creepy and eww. Then Rachael finally gets around to telling him who she is and he says I was the f**king victim in that circus." Same old Joe. Everyone is making his life hell, it's always about him. I hate that man.

I find your word choice here in the above statement to be very emotionally charged in comparison to the few lines you attributed to Simon in the statement below.:) Simon you consider to be "off his rocker," you admit he did "kidnap Sam, Anna's son," and are surprised? to find out he ended up with Anna, but the only disparaging thing you say below is actually about Anna and how you lost respect for her. I guess my question for you is, does beating a man to a pulp in an attempt to protect his child trump the abduction of a child?


I can't believe she got back together with Simon! And did she actually think that through? What if she had to leave him again? What lengths would he go to then? It's completely and totally insane. As for Simon? He has this plan to kidnap Simon so that Anna will see that her marriage to Joe is a sham and then she'll come back to him. It's so illogical that he's obviously off his rocker. But then it works? It completely reinforces his delusion. I lost all respect for Anna in this section.


My other question to you, or anybody for that matter:

What if the the roles were reversed...What if Joe was a woman and Anna a man, and if Simon was a woman... Would you think differently about each character?

Teanka wrote: "I agree the characters are flawed, but aren't we all? What I liked most about this novel was how it allowed us to see the events from a multitude of perspectives, and if not agree with than at leas..."

I agree it's about the process and not the outcome, but only if something is learned. I don't think Anna learned anything here for two reasons: She screwed up the prosecution's case by creating the doubt the defense was wanting to get Simon acquitted; there's no going back from a mistake like this-it was another ticket out of her marriage and "luckily" into the hands of another man. Why can't she ever be alone, has anybody wondered that? Also, I think going back to Simon was essentially choosing the lesser of two evils between Joe and Simon; especially since Gardiner didn't want anything else to do with her? Obviously, to Anna the abduction of her child is a more forgivable act than any of Joe's misguided ventures. She must have understood, like Sarah said, the motivation behind kidnapping Sam...To show her how her marriage to Joe was a sham. And after all, doesn't Simon know best?

Sarah wrote: "I have so very much to say about this section! Starting with WHAT IN THE HELL WAS ANNA THINKING?!?!?! I can't believe she got back together with Simon! And did she actually think that through? ..."

Does anyone think Alex's death was a suicide?
Alex would know the half-life of these medications better than anybody being a psychiatrist. In the end, I think he too was disappointed in Simon and maybe even a little in himself for getting too involved with Simon. I do believe it was a suicide.

Question

There was a line in Alex's journal where Simon is quoted saying, Give me lithium, or give me death...Was this sarcasm, or could he have been treated for being bipolar?

Ami wrote: "Teanka wrote: "it was another ticket out of her marriage and "luckily" into the hands of another man. Why can't she ever be alone, has anybody wondered that? "

Yes, of course, that's part of what I disliked about her. And in between the two guys she acted according to her parents' values to marry as soon as possible. She kept saying that she only remained with Joe for the sake of Sam, but their quarrels were a lot more damaging than their separation might have been, it was an excuse not to live on her own.

Teanka wrote: "Ami wrote: "Teanka wrote: "it was another ticket out of her marriage and "luckily" into the hands of another man. Why can't she ever be alone, has anybody wondered that? "

Yes, of course, that's p..."

Yes, what a great point you make about their quarrels and how damaging to Sam they were. In fact, she alludes to this facade of her attempt in covering up the reality of their marriage for Sam...Something along the lines of ...but denial of the impossibility of keeping up the performance for Sam (516). I remember thinking, I wasn't sure who she thinks she's fooling, this kid is witness to everything in this marriage and children at his age are so much more intuitive to hidden stresses...More than we give them credit for it any ways.

Teanka wrote: "I didn't feel she was particularly okay, she was crippled for life and still so young, the poor thing."

True. I guess I was glad that she was even alive at this point since I thought she had been forgotten about. But, now she had Simon coming to her house to take care of her, instead of the other way around, and I was happy to see that as well.

Teanka wrote: "I agree the characters are flawed, but aren't we all? What I liked most about this novel was how it allowed us to see the events from a multitude of perspectives, and if not agree with than at least understand each point of view. The outcome is not as important as the journey, or so I feel."

Yeah, I loved the different POV experience. It was a really interesting way to tell a story.

And the journey reading it with you guys was great. Thanks everyone! :)

Linda wrote: "Teanka wrote: "I didn't feel she was particularly okay, she was crippled for life and still so young, the poor thing."

True. I guess I was glad that she was even alive at this point since I though..."

See this intrigues me because I'm confused as to the point of Angelique and Mitch too for that matter. After her accident and Mitch's unsuccessful suicide attempt, it just left me thinking...What was the point of these two? I think I missed how they really impacted the plot line...If they did at all...If it even matters whether or not, they did? I get the feeling their narratives were an afterthought, written after Alex's, Joe's, Simon's and Anna's...Did anybody else?

Ami wrote: "What was the point of these two? I think I missed how they really impacted the plot line..."

Well, the big bag of money was a big deal, right? And that came directly from Mitch and Angelique. Perhaps Alex would have still committed suicide even if Gina had not left him? But to me, the incident where Alex brings Gina the money was like the tipping point for Gina not seeing Alex anymore.

Also, in some perverse way, I see Mitch and Angelique as people who really needed help, yet are kicked to the side. Alex didn't like Mitch, and so it makes me wonder if he really did everything in his power to treat Mitch. And here they are at the end, no better or even worse off than they were at the beginning of the book. Even though they each either sought out professional advice from Alex (Mitch) or was involved in Alex's life personally (Angelique), it was only Simon whom Alex cared enough to really try saving. (Of course Alex ultimately saved Mitch, but that was at the dire end of Mitch's rope) As I sit here writing this, I wonder why? Was it because Alex really only wanted to save himself, and thus focused on Simon because Simon was so much like himself?

I feel like I'm bringing up more questions as I think about this. So, I would have to think about this a bit more. But, I didn't feel at the time that Mitch and Angelique's story was an afterthought. If anything, if this book is at least in part to show us what different POVs will reveal, their narratives were needed to show how different Angelique was from Anna - Angelique was genuinely a caring person as evidenced from her concern for Simon and Mitch. And how different Mitch was from Simon - Mitch was not immediately "likeable" in Alex's views, yet even though he also sought out Alex's professional help, he was given less priority than Simon, who Alex was drawn to personally. But in the end, Angelique is crippled and Mitch is recovering from attempted suicide. Only Anna and Simon end up with their so-called "happy ending". It sucks because I certainly liked Angelique and Mitch much more than I did Anna and Simon.

Mitch was also needed to put Joe's work as a stockbroker in a different light. And Angela was the one who called the police; if she didn't, who knows how the kidnapping would have ended? Maybe Simon would have called Anna a short time later or maybe he would have kept Sam for several days, I have no clue as to what his original plan was.

Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "What was the point of these two? I think I missed how they really impacted the plot line..."

Well, the big bag of money was a big deal, right? And that came directly from Mitch and An..."

Well, the big bag of money was a big deal, right?
Sure, but was it necessary to expand on them aside from the deal with Joe and the casino scene, or calling the cops on Sam...These scenes could have very well have been brought up in somebody else's POV. How important was it for you to know where this woman came from, or this man? The money trail aside, they didn't have an impact on my reading about them. I mean, he could have very well included Simon's father, or even the perspective of Sam instead?

Also, in some perverse way, I see Mitch and Angelique as people who really needed help, yet are kicked to the side. Alex didn't like Mitch, and so it makes me wonder if he really did everything in his power to treat Mitch...If anything, if this book is at least in part to show us what different POVs will reveal, their narratives were needed to show how different Angelique was from Anna - Angelique was genuinely a caring person as evidenced from her concern for Simon and Mitch. And how different Mitch was from Simon
I like this...I can see this.

(Of course Alex ultimately saved Mitch, but that was at the dire end of Mitch's rope) As I sit here writing this, I wonder why? Was it because Alex really only wanted to save himself, and thus focused on Simon because Simon was so much like himself?
You hit the nail on the head here. I read it like this...A reverse transcendence was mentioned earlier in the book and your statement is a great example of it, if i'm understanding "reverse transcendence" correctly.

I mean, I know I wanted her to save him, but to actually end up marrying him?? No! It is so irrational!

Lol! I know! It's bad enough that she's lying under oath but marrying him was about 200 steps too far.

I was completely expecting Alex's father to be the jeweler.

I thought of that, but I think his name was Liebowitz or something like that. Maybe he's making some point about prisons that we're missing.

But, I have to admit that I did feel a tinge of sadness for Joe at the end when Rachael asked him why Joe never told Sam the truth about what happened, that Simon had kidnapped Sam and the actual history. Joe told her that he loved his son, and his son liked Simon, so why ruin that

This comment of yours actually had me thinking. I hadn't stopped to think about when he found out the actual history. When did he find out she wasn't cheating with Simon?

Even though Joe is a despicable man himself, he still has a heart for his son, even though he has absolutely no common sense when it comes to showing it.

Lol! Well worded!

I enjoyed the final chapter very much. In the very first scene we finally get to know poor Empson's fate. I'm glad that the author remembered about him and didn't casually get rid of the dog.

Me too! I was worried about that and I was glad to see someone was taking care of him rather than leaving him to starve in Simon's apartment.

I didn't like the outcome of Anna and Simon marrying, only for different reasons, as I didn't think she was worthy of him, haha.

Oh, wow. We've had four of us consistently talking about this book and we've all had entirely different reactions to these characters. I felt bad enough for him that I didn't want him languishing in prison for years, but I never actually liked him. That's amazing.

I felt that the fate of this story's true victim, Alex, was extremely sad

I hadn't thought of it this way but it's a very accurate description.

I understand her perfectly. Here she was madly in love with the man and he appeared at her door with a bag of money ? How extremely indelicate. She must have thought it a bribe and her feelings were hurt.

This makes sense. I just thought she would know that he was completely broke and would think that his explanation was the only possible way he could have gotten the money. But what a bizarre explanation. It was odd too, that he did this even though he knew Legal Aid was paying her expenses.

I know that he broke the law, but morally the case was extremely ambiguous and not as straightforward as 'he kidnapped Sam and that was that'

I think this may be one of the most difficult things about this book for me. The law should be entirely straightforward. A line in the sand needs to be drawn. If there are holes, and people think they can get away with things by claiming they meant no harm, then it would create total chaos. On the other hand, I honestly do not believe that Simon deserved to spend years and years in prison. Although, if I had seen Joe's panic when he went to pick Simon up and he wasn't there, I might have felt differently.

I'm pretty sure it was a suicide. How selfish of Simon not to meet his friend after the trial

This was absolutely appalling to me. Alex walked through fire for Simon and Simon just cast him aside once he had Anna.

Overall, a great read and a great choice of the book. Thank you, Sarah, as I have never heard of this particular author and now I'm sure I want to read his other books.

I'm glad you joined us Teanka. Your comments have been well thought out and interesting :)

On we go with the cyclical cycles we create and how they transcend onto others, like Sam. He too, from what I read, begins to see the world and act on it through the eyes and influence of Simon-How sad.

This was unbelievably horrible. It was so tragic.

I agree the characters are flawed, but aren't we all? What I liked most about this novel was how it allowed us to see the events from a multitude of perspectives, and if not agree with than at least understand each point of view

I also agree that this was the novel's strength.

I find your word choice here in the above statement to be very emotionally charged in comparison to the few lines you attributed to Simon in the statement below.:) Simon you consider to be "off his rocker," you admit he did "kidnap Sam, Anna's son," and are surprised? to find out he ended up with Anna, but the only disparaging thing you say below is actually about Anna and how you lost respect for her. I guess my question for you is, does beating a man to a pulp in an attempt to protect his child trump the abduction of a child?

Keep in mind that Joe is protecting him from having his picture taken not from a threat to his life. I disliked Joe but the emotionally charged tone your referring to is because of the sexual overtones towards Rachael. This kind of stuff started happening to me when I was 14 and I have zero tolerance for it. Marrying Simon was completely appalling to me, so yes I lost respect. As for Simon, after his POV a lot of my opinion about him was based on the fact that he kidnapped Sam out of some irrational belief that Anna would see that her marriage to Joe was a sham and that she needed him, Simon. I thought this meant that Simon was ill so I had compassion for him. But then he was right so now I have absolutely no idea what to think of him.

What if the the roles were reversed...What if Joe was a woman and Anna a man, and if Simon was a woman... Would you think differently about each character?

You and I talked about this at the end of section three I think. At the time I thought that my opinions would have changed, but once the story was over I don't think it would make any difference. Except Josephine's leering wouldn't bother me as much as Joe's :)

And after all, doesn't Simon know best?

This is the thing that is so disturbing about this book. Everyone does act that way and to varying degrees we were all pulled into that.

I do believe it was a suicide.

You don't think his illness might have had him thinking irrationally?

And the journey reading it with you guys was great. Thanks everyone! :)

This has been a fun group. I'm glad the discussion was so lively.

After her accident and Mitch's unsuccessful suicide attempt, it just left me thinking...What was the point of these two?

I thought that Angela was need to move the narrative forward between Simon and Joe, and Mitch felt like a bridge between the first and second half to me.

Sarah wrote: "I find your word choice here in the above statement to be very emotionally charged in comparison to the few lines you attributed to Simon in the statement below.:) Simon you consider to be "off his..."

I disliked Joe but the emotionally charged tone your referring to is because of the sexual overtones towards Rachael.
Yes, I figured as much that you disliked him, but I've never read anything from you like this, so I was very surprised...I couldn't figure out what would exactly trigger such a response. Well, ask and ye shall receive...I commend you on your honesty, hands down.

What if the the roles were reversed...What if Joe was a woman and Anna a man, and if Simon was a woman... Would you think differently about each character? Except Josephine's leering wouldn't bother me as much as Joe's :)

Well, other than the concept of a woman "having" to paying for sex, I don't see too much of a difference in the way I would think if there was a role reversal between Anna and Joe. I find it ludicrous for a woman to "have" to pay for sex...You're a woman?! For women who do feel they "have" to pay for it, all I will say is, they're really getting screwed (no pun intended). My statement isn't against women, it's actually "for" women. If it's one's choice, then fine, so be it; however, if it's because there's no other way, that's where I disagree. :)

You don't think his illness might have had him thinking irrationally?
No, I think he was at the end of his rope. And medicinal cocktails are engrained into the minds of psychiatrists, I find it hard to believe it was an oversight. What did he have going for him in the end...He was completely alienated, but mostly by Simon, someone who he saw himself in. I felt his transcendence made him see something in himself he once held in high esteem to something he began to be troubled by.

I find it ludicrous for a woman to "have" to pay for sex...You're a woman?!

I don't know about having to pay for it but I can totally see the appeal to paying for sex as a woman :) You can get a skilled sex partner without all of those messy emotions. At least if you're paying for it you know exactly what you're getting. I actually think this may come into why I thought that Joe cheating with a prostitute was actually less of a betrayal than having a mistress.

No, I think he was at the end of his rope. And medicinal cocktails are engrained into the minds of psychiatrists, I find it hard to believe it was an oversight.

I keep trying to think it wasn't. If it was any other combo of drugs I probably would succeed. But MAOIs? I don't see any room for doubt here, but by God I keep trying. I don't want Alex to have committed suicide. Especially as, like Teanka said, he really was the story's true victim.

Sarah wrote: "I find it ludicrous for a woman to "have" to pay for sex...You're a woman?!

I don't know about having to pay for it but I can totally see the appeal to paying for sex as a woman :) You can get a..."

At least if you're paying for it you know exactly what you're getting. I actually think this may come into why I thought that Joe cheating with a prostitute was actually less of a betrayal than having a mistress.
Sarah, I was also thinking about it along similar lines...For me, it was the physical affair versus the emotional; Joe's was clearly physical, from what I perceived.

MAOI's
From what I understand of them, they've been on a steady decline as far as being prescribed; for the sole reason, there are too many side effects with food and other drug interactions. Why do you think otherwise and what am I missing? I don't have my book in front of me, but from what I remember, he was treating himself for depression...Right? I wonder why he went the MAOI route since there were so many antidepressants (non-MAOI) on the market-I base this on a time frame in the early millennium years.

He was on an SSRI and then switched to an MAOI before the former was out of his bloodstream. I honestly can't believe this was a mistake since MAOIs are so dangerous. I just want to believe it was a mistake because it's so sad.

Some things we haven't discussed: What does everyone think happened to Sam in the end, and what did everyone think of the poem?

Sarah wrote: "What does everyone think happened to Sam in the end, and what did everyone think of the poem?"

Darn it, I forgot about the poem and now I don't have the book anymore. I meant to specifically ask about the poem because I was left scratching my head at what it was suppose to mean....and now I can't even remember what it said.

As for Sam, all the talk of suicide and notes, I was almost expecting him to be the one to have gone that route. That there must have been something in the card to Rachael that she missed upon her initial reading. But then I realized that was probably not the case since it appears he returned and left the journal, so his disappearance really happened after he came back to return the journal. My guess is that Sam left to be alone for some time and think things through - but where? And what I can't understand is that did it ever say that Rachael ever went to where he lived to find him? I don't think so. Where did Sam live? Does anyone remember if it said? Did he live on his own, or did he still live with Anna and Simon and that's why she didn't attempt to find him at home?

I thought he still lived at home And this section was talking to Simon when she went to find him. Clearly all assumptions. I'm on my phone so there will probably be misspellings but here's the poem.

"The pleasure lives there when the sense has died.
The pleasure lives there when the sense has died.
Sired, hired, inspired, fired, mired, tired.
I reasoned, but it will not rhyme.
There are some for whom the pleasure cannot live when the sense has died."

Here's the whole poem. I think it clarifies that Alex intended to commit suicide.

Leave go my hands, let me catch breath and see;

Let the dew-fall drench either side of me;

    Clear apple-leaves are soft upon that moon

Seen sidelong like a blossom in the tree;

    And God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


The grass is thick and cool, it lets us lie.

Kissed upon either cheek and either eye,

    I turn to thee as some green afternoon

Turns toward sunset, and is loth to die;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Lie closer, lean your face upon my side,

Feel where the dew fell that has hardly dried,

    Hear how the blood beats that went nigh to swoon;

The pleasure lives there when the sense has died,

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


O my fair lord, I charge you leave me this:

It is not sweeter than a foolish kiss?

    Nay take it then, my flower, my first in June,

My rose, so like a tender mouth it is:

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Love, till dawn sunder night from day with fire

Dividing my delight and my desire,

    The crescent life and love the plenilune,

Love me though dusk begin and dark retire;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Ah, my heart fails, my blood draws back; I know,

When life runs over, life is near to go;

    And with the slain of love love’s ways are strewn,

And with their blood, if love will have it so;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Ah, do thy will now; slay me if thou wilt;

There is no building now the walls are built,

    No quarrying now the corner-stone is hewn,

No drinking now the vine’s whole blood is spilt;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Nay, slay me now; nay, for I will be slain;

Pluck thy red pleasure from the teeth of pain,

    Break down thy vine ere yet grape-gatherers prune,

Slay me ere day can slay desire again;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Yea, with thy sweet lips, with thy sweet sword; yea

Take life and all, for I will die, I say;

    Love, I gave love, is life a better boon?

For sweet night’s sake I will not live till day;

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.


Nay, I will sleep then only; nay, but go.

Ah sweet, too sweet to me, my sweet, I know

    Love, sleep, and death go to the sweet same tune;

Hold my hair fast, and kiss me through it soon.

    Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.

Sarah wrote: "Here's the whole poem. I think it clarifies that Alex intended to commit suicide."

Thanks for typing all that out, Sarah. I was sitting here analyzing the bit from the book as you typed the entire poem.

So yeah, the tidbit that was in the book, I was trying to think who it was referencing, and I thought it must be himself - Alex. He was a father (sired), a psychologist (hired) to help, (inspired) by Simon's ideals, (fired) so-to-speak by his wife as they divorced, (mired) by personal relations and the complexity of getting his ideals realized (the healthcare system fiasco), and (tired) of fighting for everything and everyone.

And the last line: There are some for whom the pleasure cannot live when the sense has died, felt like he was depressed - he is getting no more pleasure from life. So I did think this had to do with suicide.

I might be too analytical in trying to figure out the poem, but anyway, those were my thoughts.

I got to copy and paste the whole poem :)

I like your analysis of the individual words. Those puzzled me. I'm quite literal too, and I can't for the life of me figure out how you can experience pleasure if your sense has died.

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "What does everyone think happened to Sam in the end, and what did everyone think of the poem?"

Darn it, I forgot about the poem and now I don't have the book anymore. I meant to spe..."

Sarah wrote: "He was on an SSRI and then switched to an MAOI before the former was out of his bloodstream. I honestly can't believe this was a mistake since MAOIs are so dangerous. I just want to believe it was ..."

Sarah wrote: "Here's the whole poem. I think it clarifies that Alex intended to commit suicide.

Leave go my hands, let me catch breath and see;

Let the dew-fall drench either side of me;

    Clear apple-leave..."

Yes, and there was so much talk about the statistics of those who leave suicide notes and those who do not. I happen to agree Alex's journal was one long suicide note as well. This poem, as dark as it is is absolutely beautiful to me...This was my favorite stanza, Yea, with thy sweet lips, with thy sweet sword; yea

Take life and all, for I will die, I say;

Love, I gave love, is life a better boon?

For sweet night’s sake I will not live till day;

Ah God, ah God, that day should be so soon.

If these aren't the last words of somebody on the verge of cutting their lights out for good, I don't know what is?

And pooh on me, the MAOI switch "was" the cause of death, I knew this and still confused myself with his self-medicating, I forgot about the SSRI.

I thought the same as Linda at first with all the suicide note(s) information and Sam too being on the verge, but then I thought otherwise...About his potential suicide. I think he was hiding out somewhere reevaluating his life and its components. I feel confident Rachel was able to get in touch with him and probably the one who helped him cope with the newly discovered oddities in his life...Who knows?

His poem led me to believe in spite of Anna's and Simon's influence, his intuition at times, fought them on a subconscious level. From his birth to the present, this kid has been through the wringer: He is born; he grows up into this precocious child living amongst familial strife not knowing where he belongs in it; his parents obviously divorce and now he has a new stepfather to whom he holds in high esteem, but he also has a father with whom he shares DNA-I can't help but think this kid grew up half hating himself because of the pictures drawn by both Anna and Simon, it couldn't have helped his being. Having to consider all of this, I can't imagine the stresses and pressures it would have put on Sam...It's exhausting. I would think, to then come upon Alex's journal and turning what he knew about himself upside down... I think the journal confirmed what he felt intuitively but kept under the surface, and in that same respect it confirmed what he felt about himself-Torn.

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Here's the whole poem. I think it clarifies that Alex intended to commit suicide."

Thanks for typing all that out, Sarah. I was sitting here analyzing the bit from the book as you t..."

Your analysis is perfect, I agree with you.

Sarah wrote: "and I can't for the life of me figure out how you can experience pleasure if your sense has died."

I'm not much for poetry, so I was glossing over that part. I couldn't understand that either. :)

Sarah wrote: "I got to copy and paste the whole poem :)

I like your analysis of the individual words. Those puzzled me. I'm quite literal too, and I can't for the life of me figure out how you can experience pl..."

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "and I can't for the life of me figure out how you can experience pleasure if your sense has died."

I'm not much for poetry, so I was glossing over that part. I couldn't understand t..."

What part, Linda, the pleasure and dead senses?

Ami wrote: " Having to consider all of this, I can't imagine the stresses and pressures it would have put on Sam...It's exhausting. I would think, to then come upon Alex's journal and turning what he knew about himself upside down... I think the journal confirmed what he felt intuitively but kept under the surface, and in that same respect it confirmed what he felt about himself-Torn."

You summed this up nicely, Ami. And I agree that Sam went to do some self-analysis after reading the journal. I hope with what Rachael knows of the past, she can be in a position to help him.

Linda wrote: "You summed this up nicely, Ami. And I agree that Sam went to do some self-analysis after reading the journal. I hope with what Rachael knows of the past, she can be in a position to help him. "
I don't think he wants to meet with her at all. He must feel betrayed and used. It certainly looked like Rachael befriended him because of the family history. I suppose it constitutes a good background for yet a few chapters more or a sequel to the story we've just finished reading :) Of course I'm joking, and I'm glad that there is no sequel. And thank you for typing and interpreting the poem, I totally forgot about it and already returned my copy of the book to the library.

Teanka wrote: "I don't think he wants to meet with her at all. He must feel betrayed and used. It certainly looked like Rachael befriended him because of the family history."

I think so too. I am just hoping, I guess, that Rachael can find Sam and that he would listen to her long enough to understand that what appeared to be her intent in befriending him was not true at all, however improbable that might sound. THEN she could try helping him. But of course we will never know what actually happens.

I want her to find him and explain but I don't know about helping him. He had some very unhealthy ideas about how their relationship should function.

Sarah wrote: "I want her to find him and explain but I don't know about helping him. He had some very unhealthy ideas about how their relationship should function."

You're probably right Sarah, I hadn't thought of their relationship getting in the way. I was too focused on what Rachael knew of Anna and Simon and their entire history, but I suppose now that Sam has read Alex's journal he knows of all the history too.

What a horrible thing to find out. That would cause a total identity crisis for me. Anna and Simon should have been honest from the start. Somehow. Okay, I'm all for always being honest about things but how do you tell him the truth when they also end up getting married? "Your step dad is a kidnapper but he's a really nice guy"? And he would never hurt you. That is just weird. " And how did your parents meet, Sam? Awkward.