The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 30th – April 5th, we are reading Chapter Three, p. 43-65 - Cleopatra Captures the Old Man of the book - Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week Three - March 30th – April 5th
Chapter Three, p. 43-65
III: Cleopatra Captures the Old Man

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on March 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 30th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Stacy Schiff

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--

by Stacy Schiff

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of March 30th – April 5th, we are reading Chapter Three - Cleopatra Captures the Old Man, p. 43 - 64

The third week’s reading assignment is:

Week Three - March 30th – April 5th, 2015
Chapter Three: Cleopatra Captures the Old Man - pages 43 - 64
Note: This week's reading ends with the sentences "The Alexandrian War ended on March 27. Caesar stayed with Cleopatra until mid-June."

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Three - Cleopatra Captures the Old Man

When Ptolemy XIII came to the palace to meet with Caesar, he was appalled to see that Cleopatra had got there before him. He ran out the gates into the crowd and bewailed his treatment by Caesar and his sister. Roman soldiers grabbed him and brought him back inside. Caesar spoke to the crowd and tried to appease them. He convoked a formal assembly where he read Ptolemy Auletes’ will, wherein he directed Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII to rule together. Caesar then gave the island of Cyprus to the other siblings, Arsinoe and Ptolemy XIV. This calmed the Alexandrians but Pothinus, Ptolemy’s tutor, plotted to poison Caesar and Cleopatra. When Caesar learned of this, he had Pothinus executed. The Egyptian general Achillas brought troops into the city and tried to cut off water to the palace. Arsinoe and her tutor, Ganymedes, escaped from the palace and joined with Achillas to try and oust Caesar and Cleopatra.

Egypt had always been a problem for Rome. Its wealth and grain imports were very tempting, but whoever would be the governor of Egypt would have too much power, so it was never made a province, even though one of the earlier Ptolemies had willed his kingdom to Rome. Auletes had had trouble with the Alexandrians and had to flee Egypt, and was only reinstated to the throne through the influence of Rome, where he stayed for three years, trying to get various influential men on his side. He finally returned with some Roman legions. He killed off his eldest daughter, Berenice, and got rid of many at court, confiscating their fortunes for good measure.

When Auletes died, Cleopatra did much to ingratiate herself with the native population, i.e. the non-Alexandrians. But perhaps she did too much to eclipse her brother, leaving his portrait off the coinage and leaving his name off official documents. Ptolemy and his advisors forced her to flee to the Syrian desert, where we found her when we started this story.

The Alexandrians were disillusioned with Arsinoe and Ganymedes and asked Caesar to release Ptolemy, who begged Caesar not to send him away, having become good friends with him. When he was forced out, he joined with Achillas. Luckily for Caesar, a large force of reinforcements arrived and there was a fierce battle, during which Ptolemy was killed, although his body was never found. Alexandria capitulated and there was finally peace. Caesar stayed in Egypt for a few months after the victory, although there was no military reason to do so.

Folks, we are kicking off the third week of the Cleopatra discussion - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

I feel sorry for Ptolemy XIII. He was manipulated by his advisers and it seems like he got on really well with Caesar. I guess he was just too immature to see where his best interests lay. Perhaps it would have been better if he had persuaded the crowd to go along with Caesar's plan for him and his sister to rule together. But maybe Achillas took over and Ptolemy really didn't have a say in what happened next.

I'm going to get caught up this week. Really enjoying the book so far.

It's interesting that Schiff brings up Mithridates. He was a thorn in Rome's side for many years. When he was young, he escaped his mother's plots to kill him, and over the years he ingested small amounts of various poisons in order to make himself immune. The Poison King: The Life and Legend of Mithradates, Rome's Deadliest Enemy and King of Pontus: The Story of Mithradates Eupator are two very good books about him.

by Adrienne Mayor
by Alfred Duggan

I wonder how Pothinus and Achillas thought they could actually murder Caesar, one of the smartest men around. Surely they would have expected him or Cleopatra to have spies in their camp.

I read the account about Ptolemy XIII a little differently I thought his tears and emotional outbursts were more manipulative to get the opportunity to return to his army.

Michael wrote: "I read the account about Ptolemy XIII a little differently I thought his tears and emotional outbursts were more manipulative to get the opportunity to return to his army."

I also thought Ptolemy was being manipulative, something which seemed to run in the family.

Perhaps it's a foolish comparison because Cleopatra was an absolute monarch, but she reminded me of Jackie Kennedy with all the descriptions of her poise, charm, and sense of how to stage a pageant to impress the masses.

Kressel wrote: "Perhaps it's a foolish comparison because Cleopatra was an absolute monarch, but she reminded me of Jackie Kennedy with all the descriptions of her poise, charm, and sense of how to stage a pageant..."

Ah yes, I can see that. Unfortunately, Jackie was able to write much of her own story and Cleopatra was not.

Interesting comments, Kressel and Kathy. I can sort of see the similarities, but Cleopatra was able to operate on a much vaster scale. And the consequences were greater for her.