Victorians! discussion

Chapter 4:

Cytherea's advertisement for a lady's maid is answered by one Miss Aldclyffe. Despite Cytherea's inexperience, her appearance and carriage impress Miss Aldclyffe and decides to give Cytherea a chance.
We are introduced yet again to another new character. Although Hardy describes fully of her appearance, it is hard to judge what sort of personality she possesses.

Chapter 5:

Cytheria is given a trial as a lady's maid to Miss Aldclyffe, and she arrives at Knapwater House mansion. Mrs. Morris, the housekeeper, welcomes her to the household.
I was much puzzled by why Cytherea was addressed by Mrs. Graye. She was a young unmarried woman. Was it a tradition to call the servants so?

Once arrived, Cytherea falls into a depressing mood and is a little restored at seeing sheep and figuring they have the initials E.S. which reminds it of Edward Springrove. After a brief inquiry from Mrs. Morrison, she surmises that the sheep belonged to Edward's father. She learns that it was Farmer Springrove who had recommended her and is resolved to think that it was Edward's doing and that he approved of her doing.
Here is a mixup, was what I felt. It's difficult to think Edward has enlightened his father as to her existence. There is a mystery surrounding Edward, which may well bar him from any mentioning of Cytherea to his father.

We get a better look at Miss Aldclyffe in this chapter. She is a highly disagreeable woman with a quick temper. There is a secret to Miss Aldclyffe as well and we learn what it is. Miss Aldclyffe is the love of Cytherea's father. Cytherea is surprised and angry that such a disagreeable woman was once the love of her father. Miss Aldclyffe also in turn learns Cytherea was the daughter of her former lover. However, the first-day experience was quite unpleasant to Cytherea, and she decides to leave the situation.

Chapter 6:

A drastic change takes place in Miss Aldclyffe's treatment of her. This could have arisen from the knowledge of who Cytherea is, but there could be some ulterior motives too. We are yet to understand what moved Miss Aldclyffe to act so. Cytherea is not too comfortable, but she's willing to accept the position of a companion.
Meanwhile, in an intimate conversation, Miss Aldclyffe wrings from Cytherea her secret love for Edward. Miss Aldclyffe figures that Edward is Edward Springrove. She even claims to have seen him with Cytherea on the boat. Miss Aldclyffe declares that Edward is engaged to be married. Whether this is true or not or whether this is the secret of Edward is yet to be seen. However, this declaration crumples down the world Cytherea has built.
And she renounces him without insisting on an explanation.
Miss Aldclyffe's father dies leaving her alone in the great mansion. The death decides Cytherea to stay with Miss Aldclyffe.

For me, this novel finally sparked into life, literally, when the older Cytherea opened the hotel door surrounded by a golden, fiery halo. This apparently symbolic entrance seemed to be a portent of what was to follow. She dominated the subsequent three chapters because of her capricious and impulsive nature, a nature which left the younger Cytherea bemused and bewildered.

Leaving aside the outrageous coincidence of the two Cythereas being brought together, I enjoyed their exchanges. Young Cytherea finally showed the spirit that I hoped was within her in the way she stood up to the older woman’s bullying. Was that the shortest ever stint as a ladies maid in Victorian literary history?

However, despite young Cytherea’s problems with Edward, my fascination lies with Miss Aldclyffe. I had never imagined that the architect’s lover had remained single, so her reasons for doing so and the fact that she still wears his photo by her heart decades later are intriguing.

I am also rather concerned about Miss Aldclyffe’s motives for insisting that young Cytherea becomes her companion.

This to me is just a little bit sinister….as if a bond had been formed by the deaths of their fathers.

’ Miss Aldclyffe held her almost as a lover would have held her, and said musingly— 'We get more and more into one groove. I now am left fatherless and motherless as you were.' Other ties lay behind in her thoughts, but she did not mention them. 'You loved your father, Cytherea, and wept for him?'
'Yes, I did. Poor papa!'
'I was always at variance with mine, and can't weep for him now! But you must stay here always, and make a better woman of me.'

I haven’t made my mind up about Edward yet, but young Cytherea, as Miss Aldclyffe’s companion, will get no encouragement there to maintain her love for him.

Here are links to a couple of the references mentioned by Hardy in this section.

1. Cytherea, on leaving Miss Aldclyffe after her first interview at the hotel.

’ Cytherea turned away towards the door. The movement chanced to be one of her masterpieces. It was precise: it had as much beauty as was compatible with precision, and as little coquettishness as was compatible with beauty. And she had in turning looked over her shoulder at the other lady with a faint accent of reproach in her face. Those who remember Greuze's 'Head of a Girl,' have an idea of Cytherea's look askance at the turning.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...




2. Cytherea and Miss Aldclyffe discussing Cytherea and her lover.

’ Miss Aldclyffe was as jealous as any man could have been. She continued–

‘He sees a beautiful face and thinks he will never forget it, but in a few weeks the feeling passes off, and he wonders how he could have cared for anybody so absurdly much.’

‘No, no, he doesn’t–What does he do when he has thought that–Come, tell me–tell me!’

‘You are as hot as fire, and the throbbing of your heart makes me nervous. I can’t tell you if you get in that flustered state.’

‘Do, do tell–O, it makes me so miserable! but tell—come tell me!’

‘Ah–the tables are turned now, dear!’ she continued, in a tone which mingled pity with derision–

‘”Love’s passions shall rock thee
As the storm rocks the ravens on high,
Bright reason will mock thee
Like the sun from a wintry sky.”

‘What does he do next?–Why, this is what he does next: ruminate on what he has heard of women’s romantic impulses, and how easily men torture them when they have given way to those feelings, and have resigned everything for their hero. It may be that though he loves you heartily now–that is, as heartily as a man can–and you love him in return, your loves may be impracticable and hopeless……….’

https://poemanalysis.com/percy-bysshe...

Thanks for your detailed comments, Trev. Very much enjoyed reading them.

ch. 4

ominous first impression of Miss Aldclyffe - like a premonition of danger and disaster:

like a tall black figure standing in the midst of fire

ch.5

Cytherea’s fears that at the undressing this suppressed anger would find a vent, kept her on thorns throughout the evening. She tried to read; she could not. She tried to sew; she could not. She tried to muse; she could not do that connectedly. ‘If this is the beginning, what will the end be!’

a perspicacious description of the state of servitude - how it comes to dominate the mind faster and more completely than the body, how degrading is the dependence on the mood and whims of a superior.

ch.6

By this time of waiting for her mistress’s outburst Cytherea’s independent spirit is at least weakened, if not yet broken. It ‘prepares’ her for her for Miss Addclyffe’s insidious attack.

To me, Miss Addclyffe’s behaviour is repulsive: manipulative, intrusive. The sentence

Miss Aldclyffe took her new pet’s hand,

summarises succinctly the relationship. She goes so far as to use her father’s death as a tool to bind the young girl to her.

Yes, Cytherea goes along with it, and promises to stay: she is no match for the powerful older woman.

sabagrey wrote: "ch. 4

ominous first impression of Miss Aldclyffe - like a premonition of danger and disaster:

like a tall black figure standing in the midst of fire

.."

I’m inclined to agree with you about Miss Aldclyffe, sabagrey. I can’t imagine that the servitude will cease even in their change of situation.

After all, even as the older woman’s companion, young Cytherea is entirely dependent on her. Will Miss Aldclyffe give her an allowance, or treat her ‘pet’ to occasional spending money according to her moods and whims? I am intrigued to find out what there could be that might stop Cytherea from leaving Miss Aldclyffe and returning to her brother’s home.

Thanks for the portrait and the links, Trev.

This is a startling section, particularly the very strange behaviour of Miss Aldclyffe, actually going to her maid's room and getting into bed with her and passing the night there-and no comment on this at all or discomfort with it the next day! As someone who worked in my youth as an au pair, your room was your refuge-the one place in your employer's home where you could be "off duty"-and to have your mistress impose on you like that is astounding. I realize that there were worse impositions on women servants but this feels like a lesser version of that sort of assault, even if it isn't sexual (although the repeated mouth kissing is also odd). Miss Aldclyffe is clearly a troubled woman so this bode's ill for Cytherea's future there.

Interesting point of C hearing the death rattle of the father-I wonder if there will be later significance?

I agree with both Trev and sabagrey that Cytherea is no match for the older scheming woman (that's how I see Miss Aldclyffe at present). The repercussions of the servitude to which Cytherea bounds herself will certainly be greater than she could ever imagine. Miss Aldclyffe is a dangerous woman to trust.

Frances wrote: "Thanks for the portrait and the links, Trev.

This is a startling section, particularly the very strange behaviour of Miss Aldclyffe, actually going to her maid's room and getting into bed with he..."

Miss Aldclyffe's behavior is indeed odd. At present, I feel it's an act to bind the young girl to her. Then again, as you explained, it's a sort of assault on privacy.
And as to Cytherea hearing the death rattle of Captain Aldclyffe is sure to have some significance in the future.
Since you mention the death rattle, it is curious Miss Aldclyffe spending the same night with Cytherea. I don't like to say anything on the matter. It's premature. But my imagination is running wild! :)

I agree with what everyone has said so far. When we learn that Miss Aldclyffe can't keep lady's maids for very long, I thought that it was because she was tyrannical. But now I think she's disturbing rather than tyrannical.

This is why I can’t make my mind up about Edward. It is probably too early to judge, but after hearing from Mrs. Aldclyffe of Edward’s engagement, Cytherea thinks this…….

’ The meaning of all his (Edward’s) allusions, his abruptness in telling her of his love, his constraint at first, then his desperate manner of speaking, was clear. They must have been the last flickerings of a conscience not quite dead to all sense of perfidiousness and fickleness.

The quote might just exemplify the inexperience, naivety and/or possible lack of judgement of Cytherea or it could provide hints from the author about Edward’s character.

Miss Aldclyffe is a very disturbing character. Her moods shift from moment to moment, and she can be a terrible bully. Hooray to Cytherea for standing up to her. As for the scene in Cytherea's room, I found Miss Aldclyffe's behavior most repulsive. Her physical caresses seemed to a desperate violation of Cytherea's private physical space. The kissing seemed sexual to me, and i felt that Cytherea the younger wanted to escape from the smothering and unasked for embraces.

Nancy wrote: "As for the scene in Cytherea's room, I found Miss Aldclyffe's behavior most repulsive. Her physical caresses seemed to a desperate violation of Cytherea's private physical space. .."

This scene reminded me of a novel I read with another group: 'Olive' by Dinah Maria Mulock Craik, from 1850 (sorry, search doesn't work for this). The relationship between the eponymous heroine and her mother is similarly physical - sleeping in one bed, kissing, embracing. It was definitely 'too much' for me, but it did not seem to be transgressive or abusive for the author, rather a 'normal' sign of strong affection.

So that made me ask about the Victorian attitude toward physical relationships between women. Maybe they were not seen as erotic or sexual? Maybe they were tolerated, especially as women had hardly any other outlet for their need of physical contact? - I just have to wonder whether Hardy's contemporary readers considered Miss Aldclyffe's behaviour as abusive as we see it today.

Miss Aldclyffe's behaviour is certainly odd by modern standards. Today, it may take as erotic or sexual behaviour except in the case of a mother and her child. I must confess that I too felt a little nauseated at the description of repeated mouth kissing. However, Victorians might have had different understandings of that kind of physical embracing of women.

Like most, Miss Aldclyffe's behavior was striking to me, and like some, it struck me as sexual. Yes, the differing Victorian standard can explain why Aldclyffe found it so easy to be so foreward in her kissing and caressing. However, whether they were motherly or sapphic, I think that under any cultural standard, Miss Aldclyffe's intention was physical and emotional dominance over Cytheria, or what would now be termed predatory, especially as her physical actions were accompanied by her statements that Cytheria would be required to devote herself to Miss Aldclyffe rather than a man.

My main take after this section was "what was Cytheria's father thinking when falling in love with this creature?" But as Trev points out, she is a fascinating creature that adds much to the story.

I have to admit that I also found the behaviour of Miss Aldclyffe difficult to understand and to read it not in a "sexual way" even if my book's footnote said something different. Probably is just a question of different times....

I'm actually a bit not sure which version of Greuze's painting is correct. According to my endnotes, the version to which he was referring was hanging in the National Gallery at the time.