The Sword and Laser discussion

The final month of the year is upon on. What will be reading to end things off? Did you meet any reading goals you may have set for the year?

Started a re-read of Wheel of time series. The Eye of the World

Still climbing the tower of Babel with Senlin. Finished Arm of the Sphinx and continuing on with The Hod King.

I finished Iron Flame, which I liked. I'll read the next one.

I also finished A Power Unbound. It was the last in the trilogy. Good ending for the series. I would recommend to readers of Gail Carriger. It is steamier than her Parasol Protectorate books, but it has a similar vibe.

Next up is December's pick.

Finished King of Scars by Leigh Bardugo yesterday. I’ll move on to the sequel Rule of Wolves as soon as my next Audible credit arrives at the end of the month, and in the meantime I’m continuing with the epic historical fiction series that is the Aubrey/Maturin books by Patrick O'Brian. I read Master and Commander last year, now it’s time for the second book, Post Captain.

Just finished Lock In by John Scalzi. Loved it, as I do all his books.
One aspect I did find annoying though was the choice to not mention the main character's sex/gender. I know he has his reasons for doing this and this is the second book of his I've read this year with this conceit but it pulls me out a bit when I try to picture the character but then realize I can't because they've never been described. It's a minor thing but I'm not a fan.
Next up is Legacy of the Force: Invincible by Troy Denning.

Still in Malazan -- I'm now up to Reaper's Gale, but don't expect to finish the series (n.b. -- Just reading the 10 mainline books) until early next year.

I have nothing set other than finishing Starter Villain which came back to me from the library. I did *buy* a boatload of books in recent weeks, but once I own them I tend to ignore them, so who knows what I’ll read.

Already read Kings of the Wyld and sequel Bloody Rose, so I’m ahead of that curve. (I liked them both.)

10,002

Currently reading Binti and The Forever War

I have one pre-orders coming in December. It is The Bitter Crown by Justin Lee Anderson the second book in the Eidyn Saga series. First book won SPFBO 6 and was picked up by Orbit Books. Finished Infinity Gate by M.R. Carey, an excellent Multiverse tale. Halfway thru The Wickwire Watch by Jacquelyn Hagen, one of SPFBO 9 ten books. One of the POVs is the lovable scamp, one of my favorite character types.

I'm almost done with System Collapse, which I'm less into than I was the previous books in the series. I'm also reading with my eyes The Olympian Affair, which I'm enjoying (but have been too tired to read lately). I'm looking forward to starting the audio for the book of the month after finishing System Collapse.

terpkristin wrote: "I'm almost done with System Collapse, which I'm less into than I was the previous books in the series. I'm also reading with my eyes The Olympian Affair, which I'm e..."

I just finished Frozen Orbit by Patrick Chiles, which I liked a lot. I don’t know how accurate it is, but it has the ring of verisimilitude. It seems like it’s up your alley.

I have a jumble of books to mention, one of which is System Collapse, and just haven't had the energy to write. But since it's come up: I also enjoyed but didn't love System Collapse. As I wonder why I come up with the following:(view spoiler)[ In the past Murderbot has paired social anxiety with significant professional competence. This book plays with the idea of a less competent Murderbot and I'm not loving that. It works okay but not great. (hide spoiler)]

I'm also having some trouble following the cast of characters and didn't remember everything from the last book. That could be solved by rereading the last book, but I feel authors should at least give you enough to go on within a single volume. I felt that was lacking here. IMO of course, and it's not like I hated the book, just that it could have been better.

John (Taloni) wrote: "I'm also having some trouble following the cast of characters and didn't remember everything from the last book."

You've put your finger on what I didn't know I was thinking. One of the joys of previous Murderbot was snappy, standalone storytelling. This one was anything but standalone. That said I still really enjoyed it and gave it four stars.

I started reading the Hugo Award-winning classic Science-Fiction novel


Way Station by Clifford D. Simak

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I started reading the Hugo Award-winning classic Science-Fiction novel


Way Station by Clifford D. Simak"

Great book I read that last year and gave it 4 Stars.

It would make a great Book Pick for S&L

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I started reading the Hugo Award-winning classic Science-Fiction novel


Way Station by Clifford D. Simak"

Tassie Dave wrote: "Great book I read that last year and gave it 4 Stars."

I also gave it 4 stars. Simak is solid as ever.

Right before Covid it was announced that Matt Reeves (Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, The Batman) had optioned it for Netflix. I hope it’s still going to happen, because this would make for a great little sci-fi flick.

I completed my annual challenge so I am taking things easy this month. Just had to finish my four current reads and the rest is just bonus.

Currently still enjoying The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. And maybe I'll read Cyberpunk 2077: Big City Dreams.

Tassie Dave wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I started reading the Hugo Award-winning classic Science-Fiction novel


Way Station by Clifford D. Simak"

Great book I read that last year and gave it 4 Stars.

It would make a great Book Pick for S&L"

Sounds good to me. TBH I'd like to see us read more classic SF. This group leans pretty hard into the newer stuff.

Trike wrote: "I also gave it 4 stars. Simak is solid as ever...."

I've only read City by him, but I liked it. This one is going well so far. I'm only 5-6 chapters in, but then again it's not a very long book.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I started reading the Hugo Award-winning classic Science-Fiction novel


Way Station"

Interesting: I read this a few years back as part of "read all the Hugo winners". I did not really enjoy it, just too dated.

I just finished Bookshops & Bonedust, reading it in about 2 days. Nothing super profound, but a fitting sequel (prequel, I guess) to the original. Cozy-core, I guess?

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "I've only read City by him, but I liked it. This one is going well so far. I'm only 5-6 chapters in, but then again it's not a very long book."

Back in the late 70s/early 80s Del Rey was publishing his new stuff and reprinting his older books, so I read a good half-dozen of them.

Interestingly, several of them could be folded into one meta-story because he often uses similar locations and themes. If Way Station is a hit, they can just change the names of other places and characters and continue on.


Geoff wrote: "I read this a few years back as part of "read all the Hugo winners". I did not really enjoy it, just too dated."

I didn’t trip over that. The book was published 60 years ago, yet he has email and VR video games. Also “the force” that Lucas borrowed for Star Wars and a transporter that Roddenberry borrowed for Star Trek.

Geoff wrote: "... Sounds good to me. TBH I'd like to see us read more classic SF. This group leans pretty hard into the newer stuff...."

Agreed.

Clyde wrote: "Geoff wrote: "... Sounds good to me. TBH I'd like to see us read more classic SF. This group leans pretty hard into the newer stuff...."

Agreed."

Me too. I've been saying this for years. It used to be about half and half old and new.

Silvana wrote: "I completed my annual challenge so I am taking things easy this month. Just had to finish my four current reads and the rest is just bonus.

Currently still enjoying [book:The Ballad of Songbirds ..."

I haven't read any Cyberpunk 2077 material, and I'm unfamiliar with the game. But I watched and enjoyed the anime series, Cyberpunk 2077: Edgerunners. It's suppose to be a prequel to the game.

As a scifi reader of five decades who has adjusted to auld fahrt status fine, I will note that we tend to lose readers when we go old-school. I recall Martian Chronicles, one of the breathtakingly great books of SFF, getting a meh reaction from the group. It's just a fact of life; those books are as far back and as dated as War of the Worlds was when us oldsters started reading SFF.

So much as I would like to see older books picked, for me they would likely be a reread. And new ones bring in the younger readers. And we can talk about the old ones here any time.

We do have a good balance of old and new.

Out of the 174 Books picked:
32.75% were > 20 years old (at the time we read them)

35.06% were < 2 years old.

We have read:
57 Books > 20 years old
39 Books > 30 years old
24 Books > 40 years old
14 Books > 50 years old
4 Books > 60 years old
2 Books > 70 years old
1 Book 200 years old.

Dave, your definition of new and old seems to be different than mine but even using > 20 years as old then < 20 years is new and 67.25%.
I would put "old" at the 1950's and older (2.29%), maybe with the 60's and 70's (13.79%) if I'm feeling generous.

I don't disagree with what John says above but I do think it was a different mix when I joined 12 or so years ago. I also wonder if there are as many active members now as there was then.

Phil wrote: "Dave, your definition of new and old seems to be different than mine but even using > 20 years as old then < 20 years is new and 67.25%.
I would put "old" at the 1950's and older (2.29%), maybe wit..."

I think 20 years is a decent breaking point, as 2003 is as good a place as any to divide “the present” from “the past”. Personally I would choose 2007, as that year saw the debut of both the iPhone and the Kindle, and those two specific devices have completely changed our culture. To be sure, there were cell phones and ereaders for a good 15 years before that, but they were rare in the wild. The ubiquity of cell phones skyrocketed when the iPhone came out, and in the first decade after the Kindle debuted there were more books published in English than had been published globally in the entirety of the 20th century. I can’t imagine a 12-year-old having a cell phone in 2005, but nowadays they’re commonplace.

I still get tripped up by time whenever someone points out those “until” and “since” comparisons. For instance, I had my 40th high school reunion this year, but between the end of WWII and my graduation was less than 38 years. Someone recently pointed out that we’re closer to 2050 than 1990 and I was like, “wut”, but yeah, it’s true.

I think any date we pick will be somewhat arbitrary, of course, but early 2000s doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

By 20 years old, I mean at the time we read the book.

For example: Ender's Game was read by the group in 2007 and was published in 1985.

This is a 22 year old book for the purposes of my stats. Not a 38 years old, as it is now.

Phil wrote: "I would put "old" at the 1950's and older (2.29%)"

Because of the way I do the stats (age of book at the time we read it) there are more than 2.29% of books from pre-1960

Pre-1960 = 11 Books (6.32%)
Pre-1970 = 21 Books (12.07%)
Pre-1980 = 30 Books (17.24%)

BTW I do maintain a 'Statistics' page on the S&L Wiki. All sorts of juicy stats to nerd over. 😉

https://swordandlaser.fandom.com/wiki...

Tassie Dave wrote: "By 20 years old, I mean at the time we read the book.

For example: Ender's Game was read by the group in 2007 and was published in 1985.

This is a 22 year old book for the purposes of my stats. ..."

I realized I had misinterpreted your dating in the middle of the night and I apologize for that. Still, I think only 17% pre-1980 is too low for my tastes and I guess that it does just come down to taste.
I just retired but this makes me feel older.
Also that's a cool chart that Mark posted.
And also thanks for the work you do with the stats Dave.

John (Taloni) wrote: "As a scifi reader of five decades who has adjusted to auld fahrt status fine, I will note that we tend to lose readers when we go old-school...."

That's true. I remember a group read of Neuromancer by William Gibson (not sure if it was this group or another) where the group consensus seemed to be "I don't get it." Sigh. I'd rather not bother if that's how it's going to be. I won't tell anyone what they need to like or not, but I do have a hard time with people who can't see merit in anything older than the milk in their refrigerator.

I think there are a few problems with older works. First, being a product of their times they often contain questionable content. You can tell readers, "Well, you have to understand the context of the time in which it was written. Just ignore that stuff, that's how people thought back then. Read it for this other stuff." But unless you are reading something with a critical eye toward understanding social issues from that time period you can understand why people aren't keen on that idea (re: the discussion on "Brightness Falls from the Air.")

Also, we stand on the backs of giants. Many of the true classics have formed and shaped the current zeitgeist in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. What was innovative back then now seems either commonplace or a very basic expression of ideas that have further developed (re: the discussion on "Elric of Melnibone.")

Neuromancer. Loved those books. Still love William Gibson. I recommended it to a friend maybe ten years back. He read it and said it felt very dated. I've considered a re-read many times but his comments make me wonder if it would just spoil a great memory. Personally, I've mostly given up on re-reading science fiction and fantasy that I loved many years ago because I don't find it stands the test of time. YMMV.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "John (Taloni) wrote: "I won't tell anyone what they need to like or not, but I do have a hard time with people who can't see merit in anything older than the milk in their refrigerator."

In the mid-90s I used to work with a movie reviewer who hadn’t seen anything older than Jaws, and he refused to watch any black-and-white films. I was gobsmacked. I’m like, “Not even Raging Bull? Not even Clerks?” Nope. “Too old-looking.”

Tassie Dave wrote: "By 20 years old, I mean at the time we read the book.

For example: Ender's Game was read by the group in 2007 and was published in 1985.

This is a 22 year old book for the purposes of my stats. ..."

So like the moving timeline of superhero comics, where almost everything in the past happened “five years ago”. In 1975 Peter was bitten by the spider five years ago. In 2023 Peter was bitten five years ago. :p

Currently reading Emily Tesh’s Some Desperate Glory. It’s a multiverse-spanning timey-wimey type story that I’m really liking. It’s a bit heavy-handed in terms of the ethic quandaries/morality bits of the story but a solid tale of humanity trying to overcome it’s instincts and find it’s place in a galactic society.

Yaas. It was published in 2023. Sue me.

So many books...anyway, recently finished Iron Flame. It's all the tropes. Slow start, finishes strong. I gagged over the sex scenes but hey, that's what skimming is for. Some unexpected plot developments and a good setup for the next one.

Was kind of amusing that her second Impression oops I mean Bonding was with (view spoiler)[a mobility-impaired dragon, like the MC, and also the most important dragon of her generation - like the MC. (hide spoiler)]

And of the half dozen others, first up the non-genre book. Someone brought up Hemingway which reminded me I'd wanted to read some of his works. Read "For Whom the Bell Tolls" in high school but nothing else.

Anyhoo, I picked up The Sun Also Rises. (We were riffing on German in the Discord so my brain insisted on reading the title as "The Sun Therefore Rises.")

Went a lot better than I thought it would. I was reading 5% at a time to start, making sure I didn't gloss over stuff the way I would with a 700-page doorstopper. This book isn't an insomnia read, it needs to be read carefully.

There's more here than I could possibly get into in a quick post. The dissolution of the expats in Paris and the cross-class camaraderie of those expats, where an upper crusty Greek interacts with a journalist without a whit of condescension, nice. Same for the eventual upper crusty Brit.

There's also the fellowship of the road, where the upper middle class Brit enjoys the company of the other two so much that he's gladly spending cash to keep the hangout going just a little longer. I think only travelers will understand this one.

Of course the tour de force of this book is the bullfighting in Pamplona, which takes up the latter half of the book. It's a prime example of literature as travelogue. People couldn't so much visit then as now, nor did easy video exist. It people wanted an experience of a place, books like this provided it. Reminded me obliquely of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, which went on and on about the ocean locations.

The bullfighting is described in all its raw physicality. Injuries, even deaths, occur and are simply a part of the festival. I think it's this visceral appeal that has made the book a lasting masterpiece.

The narrator is not, IMO, the MC. That's Brett, a woman who lives life on her own terms. Even so, with full agency, her story is a tragedy. Social conventions leave her no avenue to personal fulfillment, for all that she is an object of desire to every man she meets.

*brain* and then there's "On Earth as It Is on Television," a story of aliens visiting, hovering over our cities Childhood's End style, and then leaving. Or is it? The book starts out so violent and so sordid that I almost lemmed it. The book picks up at the 25% mark and then goes in so many whacky directions that it became more a comedy than anything else. Cat lovers especially will appreciate several plot points. I was glad I kept doing.

Next "And Put Away Childish Things" by Adrian Tchaikovsky. This is another one that started slow and picked up. A big chunk of the first half felt like standard fantasy tropes lightly sauteed. Tchaikovsky takes it in new and interesting directions later on. Yes, that's a reference to a certain famous wardrobe on the cover, but by the time Tchaikovsky is done with it you wouldn't recognize the place. Or you would, but you'd be seeing it for the first time.

Nice graph Mark. 😎

I like these visualisations of the data. I have thought about doing some as well, but maintaining them would become a chore after a while.

Phil wrote: "I think only 17% pre-1980 is too low for my tastes and I guess that it does just come down to taste."

As a 61 yo brought up on the classics I would like the group to read more older works as well, but I can understand the group wanting to read newer works.

It makes me feel ancient realising that the newer works I was reading in the early 70s are now considered old 🤔

Another problem with reading older works is that they are dominated by male writers. The group does like to read a diverse gender mix.

All Book Picks:
Male 56.57%
Female 42.86&
Non Binary 0.57%

Newer picks are dominated by women:
Books published 2020+
Male: 17.64%
Female: 82.35%

Books Published 2010+
Male: 42.52
Female: 56.32
Non Binary: 1.14%

2005 is the point at which the numbers of male/female authors is even. (For all books published +2005)

Everything older is male dominated. Everything newer is female dominated.

"Another problem with reading older works is that they are dominated by male writers."

Is it really? Andre Norton, Ursula LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, Leigh Brackett, CL Moore, Zenna Henderson, Joanna Russ...more recent (but still decades old) include CJ Cherryh, Tanith Lee, Octavia Butler, Vonda McIntyre, Joan Vinge, James Tiptree Jr., Lois McMaster Bujold, the list goes on and on. The above are just off the top of my head. We've read some but not all of these. Plenty to pick from.

John (Taloni) wrote: "...Anyhoo, I picked up The Sun Also Rises...."

Ditto, a couple years back. I'm glad you read it slow - I do think that's the best way to absorb it. For me, I found it an interesting "introduction" to Hemingway (I had read some short stories but this was the first novel of his I'd read, and of course it was also the first novel he ever wrote) and it also made me learn a little more about the "Lost Generation" who wandered around post-WWI Europe drinking cheap beer and bumming money off their stateside parents. Reading it around the same time as the amazing The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham the combination of the two books gave me a strong sense of that time period.

Bending this back to Sci-Fi, as Oaken pointed out above, reading classic works requires the reader to "want" to think about the time the book was written to get the most out of it. People obviously didn't have the same social awareness in those days that they do today and the writing will reflect those different standards. Yet good literature will find a human commonality that stands the test of time, which makes it worth the effort for those who take the time to look for it.

But my original comment was just kind of a throwaway remark; I wasn't trying to fire a shot across anyone's bow. I have a couple other Goodreads groups who read almost exclusively classic Sci-Fi and I'm happy reading those books with those groups. If this group prefers new Sci-Fi then I'd rather see it focus on that, even if that means I won't join many group reads. I really don't want to have next month's pick be Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and spend a month reading people's complaints about Heinlein's wacky views on marriage and feeling awful for having brought the whole thing up. (And for what it's worth, I'd rather not re-read TMIAHM anyway, not even on audio.)

Currently reading a short captivating ebook All Quiet in the Milky Way: Ray M. Holler’s Adventures vol. 1 which so far i'm enjoying the pace... It's disheartening to see the author facing an unfair 1-star review from a recently created account, likely a troll. I Urge anyone to support this up-and-coming author by reading and sharing honest reviews. Every genuine review counts!

Chiming in on the older books discussion to say that I enjoy reading a variety of classics alongside newer works, and I appreciate this group for introducting me to books (often older books) I wouldn't have picked up on my own.

I do find that older science fiction can feel more dated than 'normal' fiction of the same era - I think if I'm reading a book that was written in the 50s and set in the 50s, the author's attitudes are just going to reflect the society of the day, and that same society is portrayed in the book, so while I might find some things uncomfortable it's easy to shrug and say 'well, things were different back then.' But if I'm reading a book written in the 50s but set in SPACE in the FUTURE and it still has 50s attitudes to eg gender, that's going to feel a lot more jarring. It's like, you can imagine humanity going to Mars but you can't imagine women being anything but housewives and whores? Oof, Ray! (fwiw I did actually enjoy The Martian Chronicles and was glad it was picked as a group read but Mr Bradbury's attitudes to women certainly dated it).

I personally think the group has the balance between older and newer works about right for my tastes. As was said upthread, we can always discuss classic works here and on Discord, even if they're not chosen as BotMs that often.

^^ I think the husband in that story was supposed to be a controlling asshole. He was not sympathetic. I thought Bradbury was critiquing the gender roles of the day. Well, he didn't make it easy with the "fat = bad" story later. You know, that didn't even register the first two times I read the book. And then there's The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit, a short story that felt like representation the first time I read it but would now be hopelessly stereotypical. Ah well. Didn't stop Edward James Olmos and a host of Hispanic actors appearing in the movie version in the late 90s.

Dipping back to Hemingway: I was amazed at how much the characters drank. And not just cheap stuff either, quality liqueurs, champagnes and wines regularly. The rich people I can understand but the narrator is a journalist. I'm left with the impression that the exchange rate was very favorable so that even a journalist, paid an American wage for American newspapers, could live richly. Plus with Prohibition back home, if you're as big a drunk as those people, well, can't live in the US. Or at least not easily.

Of all the characters I think I enjoyed the Count most. He's Greek aristocracy, well off, and a constant moving party. He hits on the book's object of desire, repeatedly but not insistently, and takes no for an answer when it's clear her answers really do mean no and not "suggest something more compelling." The Count respects her agency where others do not. He asks her and the narrator why they don't get married, obviously understanding the two have a history and not still himself obsessed with her, something other characters in the book do to their detriment. After one outing the Count is last seen with three attractive ladies who have joined his table, an indication that he is always on the mack, but in an equal opportunity way. In the dissipation-dedicated Paris of the 1920s he is a player but without an agenda beyond a good time.

John (Taloni) wrote: "...Dipping back to Hemingway..."

If you thought they drank a lot you should read The Thin Man by Dashiell Hammett. MY GOD I have no idea how their livers survived.

Hey, can we have a Hemingway group read? That could be cool.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Hey, can we have a Hemingway group read? That could be cool."

The Hemingway Hoax by Joe Haldeman is SF. I remember thinking it was okay, but very inside baseball for English Lit majors.

Just finished Legacy of the Force: Invincible by Troy Denning. It was the last of a 9 book series in the Star Wars Extended Universe written by a rotating group of 3 authors. They were of mixed quality (2 to 4 stars) but were really just one long story.
The main plot of the series was about the fall of Jacen Solo, Han and Leia's son and EU equivalent of Kylo Ren, to the Dark Side as he takes over the Galactic Alliance for, as he sees it, the good of the Galaxy. In the process he becomes Sith Lord Darth Caedus.
There is also an occasional subplot about Boba Fett and the Mandalorians.
I haven't read any other EU books except Heir to the Empire so I kept running into references to previous books and situations and characters that I just don't know or care about. I bought these books many years ago at a used book sale for 50 cents each and read them 1 or 2 a year since then. Overall I'd rate it "meh".
Next up is Lovecraft's Monsters edited by Ellen Datlow.

Xpost from Discord: I read the latest Percy Jackson book, Chalice of the Gods. This isn't a world-shaking tale with death on the line like the rest. Nope, Percy inexplicably needs to do his senior year, having not qualified for college by, yanno, saving the world multiple times. And he has to collect college reference letters. From three gods. After doing quests. The quests are short and silly. Annabeth and Grover appear, as do a number of minor gods and a few major ones in cameos. The book is, dare I say it, Cozy. From the looks of it Riordan is going to try to get a trilogy out of this. Well, why not. I'm glad I read it and also glad I didn't pay for it (thank you LAPL.) Decent, short insomnia read.

4-star reads:

The Grey Bastards - Fantasy - grimdark orcs
The Vastalimi Gambit & The Tejano Conflict - MilSF - book 2 & 3 of Cutter’s Wars series; space mercenaries
Frozen Orbit - Science Fiction - throwback Hard SF

3-star reads:

The Ramal Extraction - MilSf - book 1 of Cutter’s Wars
Thornhedge - Fantasy - fairytale retelling of Sleeping Beauty
Colony One Mars - Science Fiction - murder on Mars
Starter Villain - Science Fiction - talking cats and cursing dolphins, also villain stuff