Victorians! discussion

There will not be a summary coming up for this segment. I'm very sorry if it inconveniences you. Please feel free to share your thoughts. I promise to pop in as and when I'm able. Thanks.

Well I was shocked somewhat by these chapters. Whilst the previous chapters were a little too much for me to digest all at once, the unsavoury and distasteful actions of Manston and Miss Aldclyffe rendered these chapters emotionally sickening. They revealed Cytherea to be an almost helpless victim of what felt like evil intent, her vulnerability becoming increasingly disturbing to me.

Sabagrey’s first impressions of Manston (in the previous section) seemed spot on. His ‘love’ for Cytherea was no more than obsessive infatuation and I get the impression that he will plumb almost any depths to get her.

’ Manston introduced into his method a system of bewitching flattery, everywhere pervasive, yet, too, so transitory and intangible, that, as in the case of the poet Wordsworth and the Wandering Voice, though she felt it present, she could never find it.’

His wicked manipulation of all those who could influence Cytherea’s decision to marry him was partly blackmail (re Miss Aldclyffe,) partly emotional coercion on a grand scale.

Even the hard-hearted Miss Aldclyffe seemed troubled by Manston’s despicable efforts to burn all the bridges of Cytherea’s escape.

’The haughty mistress's soul sickened remorsefully within her when she saw suddenly appear upon the speaking countenance of the young lady before her a wan desolate look of agony.’

My new nickname for him is ‘ Manston, the handsome Phantom’ because his initial entrapment of Cytherea began with that music in the thunderstorm. He has continued to mesmorise Cytherea so that, almost in a trance, she is irresistibly drawn to him against her better judgement.

I am now hoping that Edward can save her in the nick of time, because his misdemeanours at Budmouth can now be seen to be honestly foolish compared to the heinous machinations of the handsome Phantom.

’ During the dilemma she fell into a troubled sleep, and dreamt that she was being whipped with dry bones suspended on strings, which rattled at every blow like those of a malefactor on a gibbet; that she shifted and shrank and avoided every blow, and they fell then upon the wall to which she was tied. She could not see the face of the executioner for his mask, but his form was like Manston's.’

Hardy vividly and horrifically sums up the terrible and unacceptable emotional torture being experienced by Cytherea.

Trev wrote: "Sabagrey’s first impressions of Manston (in the previous section) seemed spot on."

On the contrary - so far, he appeared 'better' than what I had expected. His restraint toward Cytherea spoke of some sense of honour and virtue.

Now his character has changed: he is predatory and ready to apply any means to get Cytherea. I wonder whether he has hidden his 'true' character until now, whether he has really changed - or whether it is only the inconsistency of an unexperienced author.

It is only when he switches from blackmail to bribery with regard to Owen that he gets Cytherea to accept his proposal. She is immune to threats, but not to generosity.

Similar to the previous section, this one also ends with a confusion about dates (of the wedding), and I feel this will prove as momentous as the first one. Hardy likes to elaborates on the role of minor coincidences.

I thought the action really took off in this section with Aldclyff and Manston's plot to drive Cytheria into marrying Manston through any means possible. Interesting that the first two steps involved blackmail coercive efforts:
- Aldclyffe to force Edward into declaring for a marriage date with Adelaide, which makes Cytheria feel that her preferred mate is unavailable and so clears the way for:
- Manston to force Cytheria into marrying him as quid pro quo for aid to her brother before he sees it is wiser to add the 'honey" of some voluntary good works toward the brother to his blackmail efforts.

I think the plot is kind of fun but does rely on what I'll generously call 'flexibility' in the characters of both Aldcliffe and Manston, as noted by sabagrey. Hardy has them alternate between moments of purely bad intent with glimpses of their each having a conscience. I attribute this to Hardy's attempt to 'sensationalize' his natural realism inclination for sales purposes as much as his inexperience. But then it is his inexperience that is the driving force to have him sacrifice more realistic characterization to enhance the novels 'sensational' feeling so the reader will be wondering "what are these people capable of doing next?"

Perhaps this is not as great a 'literary' work as others in the Hardy canon but I'm finding the book to be a fun read. I find his descriptions are still enjoyably poetic but, at times, do feel they may be a bit more overdone or garish than usual. But that may just be me looking to find more 'rookie' traits or flaws in this early Hardy work.

Brian E wrote: "I thought the action really took off in this section with Aldclyff and Manston's plot to drive Cytheria into marrying Manston through any means possible………

Perhaps this is not as great a 'literary' work as others in the Hardy canon but I'm finding the book to be a fun read. I find his descriptions are still enjoyably poetic but, at times, do feel they may be a bit more overdone or garish than usual. ..."

I am also enjoying the poetry amidst the dastardly deeds of Manston. (By the way I don’t think that the ’ fascinating panther or leopard’ as first encountered by Cytherea has changed his spots in any way nor will he in the future. His kindness and conscience have all been shallow devices utilised to achieve his selfish desires.)

Having just finished rereading Jane Eyre I was struck by the way Hardy uses poetic imagery from nature and uses natural phenomena (eg the weather) in a very similar way to Charlotte Brontë. They both use them as warnings or foreshadowings of the consequences of an imminent event or events.

Here are two examples……

’ They were standing by the ruinous foundations of an old mill in the midst of a meadow. Between grey and half-overgrown stonework—the only signs of masonry remaining—the water gurgled down from the old millpond to a lower level, under the cloak of rank broad leaves—the sensuous natures of the vegetable world.’

…….’ All dark objects on the earth that lay towards the sun were overspread by a purple haze, against which a swarm of wailing gnats shone forth luminously, rising upward and floating away like sparks of fire.’

I am struck by how both Edward and Cytherea have been coerced into marriage by threats/promises to their families, and both feel this is the only way to save a beloved father/brother.

I don't know what to make of Manston-he does feel predatory, however isn't this how someone is supposed to "woo" a hesitant beloved-be kind, assist them, be interested in their lives and take an interest in their woes? He behaved reasonably when his wife was still alive, has not been physically aggressive/seductive, has not lied to her. I could see that another woman in the same circumstance might come to love him-and how is he meant to read her body language/hesitancy-is that not how good Victorian young women are supposed to behave towards their suitors?

I don't mean to say that I disagree with everyone's comments, just that I think his actions and behaviours could have a different interpretation, and it's not clear if he has correctly "read" Cytherea's lack of feeling for him.

I am puzzled by his and Miss Aldclyfe's history-I assume that this will come out later unless I've missed something-was Manston brought to his steward's job expressly to try and arrange a match with Cytherea?

The youth and naivety of Cytherea, who, as her wedding day nears, desperately wishes for the counsel of her dead mother, has partly led her into the situation she finds herself.

‘Indeed, the inexperienced Cytherea had, towards Edward in the first place, and Manston afterwards, unconsciously adopted bearings that would have been the very tactics of a professional fisher of men who wished to have them each successively dangling at her heels.’

However, I think this quote describes quite clearly the relative feelings of Cytherea and Manston, and ought to convey to Manston, if he was in any way honourable, to desist his stalking of the young woman.

’ For the first time in her life she truly dreaded the handsome man at her side who pleaded thus selfishly, and shrank from the hot voluptuous nature of his passion for her, which, disguise it as he might under a quiet and polished exterior, at times radiated forth with a scorching white heat.

She perceived how animal was the love which bargained. 'I do not love you, Mr. Manston,' she replied coldly.’

Their relationship seems to bear some similarities with (spoiler warning for those who have not read Mansfield Park)(view spoiler)[ Fanny Price and Henry Crawford, except that courageous Fanny did not crumble under Henry’s onslaught. (hide spoiler)]

I agree that those chapters get even more awful than the others. The intrigues by Manston and Aldclyffe aren´t easy to bear, and they abuse Cytherea´s naivity.

I agree with Trev about Hardy’s use of weather and setting. Cytherea accepts Manston’s offer of marriage while everything around them is dying before the bleakness and cold of winter.

Regarding Manston, I have more of a favorable feeling towards Manston than some of you. He seems to genuinely love Cytherea. But my feelings may change as we progress further into the book.

Both Manston and Miss Aldclyffe fully reveal their evil sides in these chapters. We know now that Miss Aldclyffe has a dark secret involving Manston (could he be her illegitimate child?), and she has plotted to marry him to Cytherea. She is willing to sacrifice everyone else’s happiness to accomplish this and doesn’t even consider Cytherea’s feelings. That Manston doesn’t overdo his grief for his wife is understandable since it’s obvious he didn’t love her. But his use of Owen ‘s illness to blackmail Cytherea is proof to me that he has no conscience. I suspect his passion for Cytherea will go the same way as his passion for his late wife if she succumbs to his threats.

Nancy wrote: "Both Manston and Miss Aldclyffe fully reveal their evil sides in these chapters. We know now that Miss Aldclyffe has a dark secret involving Manston (could he be her illegitimate child?), and she h..."

My thoughts concur closely with yours Nancy. I tried to find something good or noble about Manston’s actions, but when he is described like this…..

’ Manston's eye sparkled; he saw for the hundredth time in his life, that perseverance, if only systematic, was irresistible by womankind. …..

I could only see a controlling fanatic who has done this sort of thing many times before.

Nancy wrote: "Both Manston and Miss Aldclyffe fully reveal their evil sides in these chapters. We know now that Miss Aldclyffe has a dark secret involving Manston (could he be her illegitimate child?), and she h..."

Yes, back in Chapter 1 it says "Huntway could tell nothing definitely. He said he believed there had been some prior flirtation between Cytherea (Miss Aldclyffe) and her cousin, an officer of the line, two or three years before Graye met her, which suddenly had been terminated by the cousin's departure for India, and the young lady's traveling on the continent with her parents the whole of the ensuing summer, on account of delicate health."

The note in my book explains that this is a euphemistic way of concealing that the delicate health problem was an unwanted pregnancy. This happened about thirty years ago, so that's about right for the age of Manston.

Also, in The Aeneid, Venus was the mother of Aeneas.

Wow! I didn’t catch that at all. Thanks for the additional information, Melanie. The reference to Chapter 1 and the explanatory footnotes really add to my understanding of what’s going on with these characters.

What a wonderful discussion you all have had. It was lovely reading all your comments. I finally managed to finish reading this section. (Quite late :) ).

Like many of you, I was shocked by the amount of coercion put on Cytherea by Miss Aldclyffe and Manston. Manston rather fell in my esteem. However, his reaction to his loss and his interest in Cytherea still look genuine to me (unless he is a good actor and is playing his part).

I also thought the connection between Manston and Miss Aldclyffe could be what Melanie and Nancy predicted. There must be a strong bond for Miss Aldclyffe to act as she does - submitting completely to Manston's whims.

I also completely missed that about her "travelling abroad" which now makes perfect sense, particularly in a Hardy novel!

Melanie, now I know what you meant when you said in Week 3 that:
“My edition however gives too much away in the explanatory notes.”

That's right! :-)