Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is the thread for the January 2024 buddy read of Rabbit Redux by John Updike. Discussion begins on January 15th.

I have ordered my copy and will start it when it gets to me.

I'm putting a comment in so that I see when people get going on this. I'm looking good for starting the book on or near the 15th.

I think I am still on track for the 15th, Sue.

Great, Sara. I love when buddy reads start on the 15th

I decided to join and have finished.

I'll be interested in your thoughts, Sam, when I have had a chance to catch up with you.

I might get to it before the 15th, but then I tend to read at a slow pace.

How is everyone doing on this? I see Sam is finished.

I'm finished with the 1st chapter which is page 100 in my copy. Some general non spoiler thoughts so far. First, I can't believe how racist Rabbit has become. It's very uncomfortable reading but there is still this train wreck quality that makes it hard to put down.

I still contain that Janice is just as bad as Harry. She's not as racist, that we know of, but in terms of what's happening in their relationship and how she is treating their son, she is pretty despicable.

I am just on page 28, Sue, so not very far in. To me, Rabbit is still not very likeable, but the writing is again very powerful, so I am again feeling the ambivalence about reading on, with Updike’s writing luring me in. It seems that Harry has some of the same attitudes of an Archie Bunker character, being not very evolved. Actually, he seems to have some of the grievances that you hear these days. He wants his wife home to cook him dinner and sexually available on his terms. He wants his son to be sports oriented and to look less like a girl. Almost like — why is the patriarchy that is supposed to deliver for me not working for me? As for Janice, I have to read on to see what you mean in this novel.

I completely understand, Terry. Archie Bunker is a good comparison with the racism, but I don't think Rabbit is as bad as him. We never saw Archie self reflect or be sorry for anything as I remember. Rabbit wants to do good, he just can't seem to. It's the same with Janice. They're unlikeable but not evil, just deeply flawed. Harry and Janice are more ignorant and pathetic than purely unlikeable. I can't help put feel sorry for them that they can't get their acts together.

Behind the Spoiler is for up to the end of Chapter 1 (approx pg 100 in my book) (view spoiler)[ For Janice, I'd compare her to Joanna Kramer. This chapter really brings to mind Kramer vs Kramer with the effects of marital problems on kids. Poor Nelson. It was so sad when he rode is bike to her lovers house after she leaves without giving him any explanation. And what was the point of lying to Harry and saying she was going to the Poconos with her parents when he already knew about the affair. I can't imagine being that close to my kid and ignoring him. (hide spoiler)]

I am going to stab at further defing Rabbit and Janice. Updike was a conservative and the conservative element seems to imbue Rabbit and his portrait of Janice seems based on the conservative idea of a woman at the time. But then Updike overlays those characters with a layer of childish irresponsibility that we tend to associate more with the liberals of the time. So I would portray Rabit as an Archie Bunker with a Meathead personality superimposed on top. You can do the same for Janice by substituting Edith with a layer of Gloria on top. These comparisons aren't exact but I think they get us a little closer.

I just finished Chapter One. It is good to remember that this book is set in 1969 and there were many men spouting Bunker views, and in fact, there is an odd echo these days. It was a perilous time of deep divide. But the comparison —Rabbit to Bunker and then to now— doesn’t go very deep. Yes, both of these characters are flawed and yet want to be better but can’t seem to. That’s what makes them interesting and keeps me reading.

I have also now finished Part 1. Much like the original, I do not like Harry or Janice but it is like trying to look away from a car wreck. I like Janice less than Harry for some reason. She seems both unfeeling and totally self-centered. I feel mostly for Nelson.

Completed Part II: Jill

(view spoiler)[I wonder if this would read completely differently to someone who hadn't been there. I was in college in 1971 when this book was published and all the issues Rabbit and the others take on are ones I remember all too well. Do younger people understand the dichotomy of the newly prosperous post-war society and the emptiness of the assassinations? The way we felt our world was blossoming and disintegrating at exactly the same time? The dual nature of the sex and drug cultures--freedom and enslavement, mixed together in the minds of kids too young to really sort through it? I find Jill a very convincing character. In fact, they are all convincing. I cannot like Harry, but I cannot dislike him either. I find myself always searching for some way to justify him or to see a way out that he is failing to discover (but, of course, he is as trapped as a man can be. There is no miracle to "save" him from the life he has begun, and to try and justify him is impossible, he cannot even justify himself. (hide spoiler)]

Sara wrote: "I have also now finished Part 1. Much like the original, I do not like Harry or Janice but it is like trying to look away from a car wreck. I like Janice less than Harry for some reason. She seems ..."

I agree, Sara. Up to chapter 1 so far I like Janice less. Ignoring Nelson is cruel.

Sara wrote: "Completed Part II: Jill

[spoilers removed]"


I'm about half way in part II (page 148) but looked at your spoiler anyway Sara. I was in grade school at the time this was published and didn't comprehend the gravity of the time until later from books, movies, stories from those who lived it etc... It's the same for me that I can't really like or dislike Harry. He's just lost with guilt about people dying in the war, his dead end job, sick mother and fractured marriage. He can't make sense of the world like many others of the time who all expressed it in different ways.
Jill is a convincing character and (view spoiler)[ the way Harry can't have sex with her seems telling that he's grown a little bit but I'm sure he'll eventually give in. I'm getting a feeling that she may help him with his racism (hide spoiler)]

About Harry's racism: (view spoiler)[I can't help thinking one of the points Updike wants to make is how much people have bought into the fiction and prejudice. Harry isn't a bad person and he doesn't have any true malice toward black people, but he has been taught to fear and dislike and almost has to remind himself to do that. The telling scene for me was when he and Jill are leaving the bar and the guys bring her her purse. He is scared, truly scared. He thinks he is going to be the next headline in his paper. And, they know what he is thinking, they kind of laugh about it...but it is not funny, it is sad for both sides. (hide spoiler)]

Part III: Skeeter

(view spoiler)[I am not sure what I really think about this! Parts of it were a massive slog for me and I admit to feeling total revulsion at the living situation, the drug use, the foul language, and the exposure of this child to all of this rampant immorality. The end surprised me, but not because I thought it was going to have any happier an ending, just that I wasn't expecting it to be that. I hated the lack of feeling both the men showed for Jill, even after she was dead. I did not understand Harry's attachment or attraction to Skeeter either.

I understand what Updike is going for in this novel, but I feel like he slides into overkill. There is a seedy side to life, but the negatives on both sides are just too exaggerated here for me. Harry gives no thought to Nelson. Does it not occur to him that Nelson could easily have been in that house? (hide spoiler)]

I just closed out this section and have not really had time to digest it yet, but my impulse was to get my initial impressions down. It left an unpleasant taste in my mouth. I'm anxious to know how others react. This is not an easy book to read, for numerous reasons.

I am still in Part 2 and not sure where this is heading.

I'm anxious to have your thoughts, Terry.

You are very gracious in your comment, Sara. I’m not sure I can add much to the conversation at this point, which is not that far into the story.

Okay, I will try here. I will say two things. One, I was very impressed with Updike’s physical description and characterization of Jill. She is described as being almost transparent, the color of clear heart cedar, which is very pale, blonde to white. Question: Is Updike saying she maybe not a completely formed personality? She is not a ghost, but maybe not fully a person? What does she represent in this novel? This is till unclear to me, but maybe will become clearer when I read on.

And then, the obvious connotations of “Rabbit” could be someone speeding away (as he did in the first novel), or sexually active (which he seems more interested in than actually doing). I have a lot of rabbits and bunnies who feast on the salad bar of my garden, so I have some experience watching them. When you think about the mannerisms of a rabbit, there is a certain amount of nervousness or alertness about the environment, a constant measuring of the surroundings, and being totally in tune with the movements of other potential threats or just changes. This is Rabbit, I think, who is almost constantly sniffing the tides —almost in a paranoid sense when on the bridge when Jill’s purse is returned to her.

Am I reading too much into these ideas?

I knew you were going to give me things to think about, Terry!

I noticed the pale, white, transparent descriptions, but I did not connect that with Jill being unformed, which is perfect. I kept thinking of her as being weak. She is trying to put herself forth as a rebel or one who stands for something, but mostly she is just pushed and pulled. She doesn't choose. She has sex when she doesn't want to and she tries to disappear while it is taking place. She embraces the "movement" but for the wrong reasons. She also only sees skin color. She cannot distinguish between Skeeter, who is a drug pusher and pimp, and Martin Luther King, who wants people to be judged by their character.

Again, your analysis of Rabbit is perfect. He is constantly alert for danger, and yet, like Peter Rabbit, he has got to get into the garden regardless of what the farmer might do to him.

I have never known anyone who was as untethered as he is. How hurt is he by Janice? She makes him feel like a failure, but does he really want her back in his life? He does a good job of seeming not to care about anyone at all, but then he can't leave Skeeter on the street or turn him in, he has to try to transport him to a safer place to let him go. His conscience is so strange to me, because he feels concern for Skeeter, but he fails to see what he is doing to Nelson and he accepts what happens to Jill without any real emotion at all. He loves his mother, but he is almost resigned to whatever happens to her and he behaves as if he will always have tomorrow to visit her, no hurry.

Writing about Updike is hard. Everything I want to write has to be qualified. I tried to free some time to comment this morning but found the thoughts aren't going to be clear were I to try and put them to paper, so I will try for clarity later and for impression today.
(view spoiler)[
I love how Updike puts me in the period. When Rabbit is sitting with his father in a bar just after leaving work and before the bus ride home, the reality is so that I can hear the ceiling fans turning, picture the jukebox in the corner, see the picked egg jar by the National cash register at the end of the bar.

But when Updike is trying to describe certain characters with whom he wishes to make the story, he seems to be basing them on pictures or quotes form Life or Time magazine. Jill is less a character than a manifestation of the quote, "free love." Skeeter a cross between , the stereotypical pimp/drug dealer and the revolutionary. Updike's depiction while seeming to be realistic is IMO, very much fantasized and when we add in that Updike is trying to satirize their values to a degree, the result is not like anyone I ever met.

But Updike does catch a sense of the spirit, of the Zeitgeist of the times that spawned the characters. For example, Updike in Harry or Janice, captures some of the best examples of the essence of narcissism and hedonism that was to almost to define the period of my life. I am not referring to the "Trump," narcissism which is somewhat exaggerated. I am talking about everyday stuff we all do that places ourselves at the top of our perceptions of the world. I think Updike saw the potential of that early he seems to capture many ideas and trends that developed. But his actual characterizations are often suspect IMO. This isn't saying he could not have written real ones. I can imagine how much I would have like this novel if instead of the pyrotechnics and fantastic, Updike had just tried to write of the relationship between Harry and his father as they both age. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

I love your comments about narcissism, Sam. (view spoiler)[I wonder if any of us can really look at the world except through the prism of ourselves. But, the WWII generation was one of sacrifice, living for others; and the 60's generation became one of me first, you second, whatever makes you feel good is A-ok, which meant drugs, sex, and most of what was there but hidden during the previous generations.

What makes Updike difficult for me is all the mixed feelings that ebb and flow. I wonder if that isn't one of the things he is saying...that there isn't a straight line, we are all mixed bags of good and evil, smart and stupid, "pimp and revolutionary", and none of us really knows where he is going. We'd like to be better than we are (Jill, Rabbit, Janice, and even Skeeter are trying to reach for better things) but we are all too aware that we are nowhere near getting there.

I can never make up my mind if this is a 2-star read (I really hate parts of it so much) or a 5-star read (because it makes me think and search for meaning). (hide spoiler)]

I finished the book tonight. (view spoiler)[I cannot say I either like Harry any better than I did in Rabbit, Run nor that I understand him better. I am amazed at how Updike keeps me reading when I really just want to stop. All of these people are chasing emancipation, but they are looking in all the wrong places and sex as a liberator doesn't seem to work, although it doesn't stop any of the characters from thinking it will.

I was not surprised Harry and Janice would get back together. I expected that. I don't think they will have any more success this time around, but according to Updike, Rabbit is about to be "rich". (hide spoiler)]

I am going to wait before I read reviews, Sara, Sam and Sue. I am only about 40% into the book, so I am going at a slower pace.

Sara wrote: "About Harry's racism: [spoilers removed]"

I agree completely, Sara. It's just mindlessly spouting off, like the swearing. We see later in the Skeeter chapter (view spoiler)[ the way Harry takes him in and is willing to listen to his point of view. I think, he's a product of the time and today, he wouldn't say those things (hide spoiler)]

Sara wrote: "Part III: Skeeter

I am not sure what I really think about this! Parts of it were a massive slog for me and I admit to feeling total revulsion at the living situation, the drug use, the foul langua..."

I too was shocked by a lot that happened in this chapter, Sara. Harry switched places with Janice for me, being the much worse parent at that point but (view spoiler)[ Janice still wasn't great. I liked Skeeter at first, and still think he was a great character, but when he started shooting her up and using her the way he did, it was beyond disgusting. And Harry, to watch it and do nothing. He was using her too but did care about her and even cared Skeeter after all he did. He has this uncanny ability to not be able to act on his heart and conscience. It's like he's living in a walking coma and can't control anything around him, like his mom in her nightmares. I was shocked by the turn of events after Skeeter calls him at Peggy's. It was getting bogged down before that but then I couldn't put it down. I'll say more in my response to Sam (hide spoiler)]

Terry wrote: "You are very gracious in your comment, Sara. I’m not sure I can add much to the conversation at this point, which is not that far into the story.

Okay, I will try here. I will say two things. One,..."

Excellent point about Jill's description and her not being fully formed, Terry. I think all the characters are not fully formed which I'll say more about in Sam's due to spoilers.

Sam wrote: "Writing about Updike is hard. Everything I want to write has to be qualified. I tried to free some time to comment this morning but found the thoughts aren't going to be clear were I to try and put..."

I also find Updike's way to put us in the room, exceptional, Sam. (view spoiler)[ My opinion about the not fully formed characters, is similar to what Sara says below. I feel it was a feature, not a bug. It's one of the reasons I'm giving it 5 stars (along with putting me in the room and his ability to create excellent dialogue throughout).

I was thinking at first that Updike needed to give us more about the characters, more reasons why Harry was the way he was. His parents weren't divorced, they seemed to love each other and be pretty good parents and yet they end up with Harry, becoming an emotionally stunted jerk, and his sister becoming a prostitute. Then it dawned on me, that it was intentional. Updike was making them all an everyman torn between 2 imperfect sides. Janice who supposedly hates Harry's racism, then is appalled that he has a "darkie" living with him, whereas Harry is really trying to understand where Skeeter is coming from and treating him as an equal.

I don't know for sure what Updike is trying to do, but I'm a firm believer, that it doesn't matter, it's what you get out of it. In the end, I got that everyone there was living in a broken times with so much division, strife and uncertainty that they were numbed by it and couldn't find a way forward. All of the major characters are deeply flawed in different ways at different times.

I got disgusted with the use of the N word, C word, heroin use and many really bad, and some cruel sex scenes, but I believe it was all meant to show the effects of war and slavery and other ills of society as a whole and wasn't done gratuitously.

I love the ending with Harry and Janice meeting at the house and then at the hotel. It's all so awkward, but real. (hide spoiler)]

I thought this was brilliant and look forward to the next one, even though I'm sure it will be another train wreck.

Sue, you have expressed so well many of my thoughts while reading. It is precisely because everything seems intentional on Updike's part that it is bearable to read.

I really appreciated this comment regarding Harry: It's like he's living in a walking coma and can't control anything around him, like his mom in her nightmares. Exactly.

Sara wrote: "Sue, you have expressed so well many of my thoughts while reading. It is precisely because everything seems intentional on Updike's part that it is bearable to read.

I really appreciated this com..."

Thanks, Sara. I just realized that I accidentally had 2 spoiler tags in a row that cancelled each other out. Luckily Terry didn't get here before I noticed.

Does anyone want to go on to Rabbit is Rich? I'm thinking of reading it in June. I want to have time to recover from this one.

I'm also thinking of reading the Rabbit at Rest this December or next January.

Yes, Sara I am in for the series and will let you call the timing.
By the way, I am in Part 3 now. Has everyone else finished?

Terry wrote: "Yes, Sara I am in for the series and will let you call the timing.
By the way, I am in Part 3 now. Has everyone else finished?"

I'm finished. Glad you are up for the next one, Terry!

Sue's suggestion of June would work for me. I need a little break between them but will absolutely finish the series. I might want to read Rabbit at Rest in September or November. December is generally a tough month for me and I do want to finish the series this year.

Terry--I am very curious to see what your final thoughts are on this one.

June and Sept work for me.

Also okay for me.

Putting it on the calendar!

Sara wrote: "Putting it on the calendar!"

Great! with this, I'll make my minimum goal of 5 Pulitzers this year for sure!

I made it to Part 4 and hope to finish tomorrow.

Great, Terry! Part 4 goes pretty quick

I have finished Rabbit, Redux and still trying to puzzle out exactly what I think about the book.

One thought is that the lunar landing is a metaphor for Rabbit in this period of his life. He is floating in an unfamiliar world, having completely lost his bearings when his wife leaves him. The book is filled with words like “space,” “astronaut,” “moon rocks” and “moons.” Harry is on another planet, does not understand the current political environment, and seems to be passively floating in space, untethered, not even able to help his son — although he wants to. As the book progresses, he loses more and more.

I found the book to be sad and somewhat unsatisfying with perhaps just a glimmer of hope at the end.

Great pickup on the moon symbolism, Terry. Fits perfectly. I'm unsure if I have any hope for Rabbit or Janice, they seem so self-destructive to me. But...he is about to get "rich" and that might mean life and not money.

Love your observation, Terry. It does certainly describe Harry and probably Janice and even Jill and Skeeter.

I don't expect their lives to get better even when Rabbit gets "Rich" as the next title implies. I guess it doesn't bother me because I see this series now like a great modern tragedy. An American tragedy.

Yes, these characters are tragic, Sue, so I get your point. And I am also mot confident that becoming rich is going to help them.

Sara, I posted a review after some reflection,

Fantastic. I am off to read it, Terry.