Indie Book Club discussion

[I'll probably post a more positive - What entices you the most? - thread in the nearish future, for those bursting with sunny optimism].

Bit of a Ronseal thread.

When you read a book, particularly by an independent/self-published writer, what puts you off? What can authors do to avoid their readership hurling their books to the ground and run, shrieking towards the hills?

My answer's changed over time. I used to have a burning hatred of typos. I still dislike them, and it does create a negative impression, but if the writing's decent enough I can overlook even many spelling mistakes or small formatting errors.

Because I check out samples beforehand, it's rare for me to buy an e-book and not finish it. What stops me from moving from sample to purchase is often a sense of predictability. A farm hand who turns out to be the king. Ancient evil. A prophecy. All those things *can* work, but they can also easily fall into a well-trodden rut.

Dialogue that's overdone can be another. I don't mind slightly fancy wording (I read fantasy, after all) but if I struggle to get the understanding first time it's 'ye olde' to the point of tedium.


So, what turns you off reading certain books?

I agree - typos are bad, but I can overlook them.

What puts me off are bland or unlikable characters. If I like the character I will read no matter how predictable the plot if only to "see" the character's reactions.

Good question. I had to sit and think about that one.
I feel lucky so far because there were not many books I struggled to finish or DNF. So here we go.

1- Repetition. I don't mind words that are repeated from time to time. After all, sometimes there are just no other way to say it, but when it feels as if the author just didn't give it a second thought, it bugs me. Now, what irritates me though and will make me set a book aside is when whole parts of the story are repeated over and over. I know I have a so-so memory, but five or six times and sometimes even more of telling me the exact same thing. No but hey, if I didn't get it the first time, I got it the second time.

2- As: Nothing will make me roll my eyes as much as the simple word 'as'.
"As I walked down the street, I watched as someone entered my house. I fumbled in my purse as I searched for my pepper spray. It slipped off my hand as I shook from head to toe, but I decided to call 911 as I saw the face of my x-boyfriend in the window."

I'm dead serious. I've seen it. The first time I encountered the problem, I didn't know better and I rated the book on the story alone, adding a note that it needed a little polishing. Now, when it happens, I just put the book aside and move to the next one. Don't take me wrong, I don't hate the word. It's the overuse of it I can't stand. If I beta read, you can be sure I'll point them out, especially when I see a few in the same paragraph, or very close to each other. To me, the word 'as' is like a rat, cute and fuzzy by itself, overwhelming when too many.

Similar to GG, but my peeve word is 'was'. I don't like the same word (any word) repeated in the same or continuing sentences, unless it's for effect rather than laziness. I also don't like sentence structure that doesn't flow well.

I'm quite forgiving, but the one that really sticks in my mind was a book I got because of a posting I saw here; the fellow and I had similar work experience. The blurb and cover made it seem like a sci-fi adventure. The book was really a loose plot filled with tons of gratuitous sex and foul language. I can understand sex and foul language to move the story forward, but this was way too much and too disjointed to make sense. It would not have made good erotic sci-fi either, in my opinion, but if that was the author's goal he should have stated it. Plus, the plot was resolved by a completely new set of characters with a new agenda magicked into the last chapter. This was an example of why readers don't trust indie books, especially those with few reviews.

I agree with everyone so far on the technical stuff - "as" and "was" and typos, etc. But I think for me, the fastest way to turn me off has more to do with tone than technical finesse. I hate self-seriousness and self-importance. It's really hard to pin down exactly what clues me in to this as a reader, but if the tone is relentlessly solemn/portentous from the get-go, I won't keep reading. I don't care what your subgenre is or how dark or adult you want your story to go, if you're unable to include some wit, I'm going to question your ability to keep me entertained for the long haul.

Typos annoy me, but I can put up with them if the story still flows well and is engaging enough. But if the sentence structure is too repetitive/juvenile/stilted/hard-to-understand I'll set it aside.
Something I really hate is when characters 'fall in love' right away, you know, insta-love. I've gotten so I'll quit a book for that, especially if they're gaga over each other and seem like they can't have coherent thoughts. YA is notorious for this. I actually prefer erotic scenes that I can just skip to the constant drooling.
Another thing is when the characters are weak to the point of irritation. I can handle it for a while, but if they don't start growing up I'll end up dropping the book, or in the case of one where I felt like it was going somewhere, I'll finish it and then hate it because dagnabit I expect character development of some sort in a story. If I wanted people who stayed the same I wouldn't bother reading books.

I can stand a few typos and not be put off. The thing that always puts me off is love triangles. I hate those and instantly lose interest in a book. I'm not a big fan of present tense either. It's clunky to me, but it doesn't really put me off reading.

Christian, I agree that wit is a huge plus. I can occasionally read something without humor, but I make sure they're few and far between.
Patricia, I don't like love triangles either. If it's subtle and doesn't overwhelm the story I can tolerate it, but if it becomes clear that the book is going to lean heavily on it, I'm done.

The thing about love triangles is that it's hard to make the stakes feel high. I suppose it's different if romance is your genre, but anywhere else...it's a little hard to care about which guy/girl the protagonist winds up with when much more dire things are at stake (see: The Hunger Games).

And if everything wasn't about sex the girl could be great friends/co-fighters with both of them and they'd all live happily ever after. (Everything being about sex is one of my turnoffs, both in books and real life.)

Or it could get really disturbing like in the Twilight series when the 'third wheel' ends up with the heroine's daughter instead.

R.A. wrote: "And if everything wasn't about sex the girl could be great friends/co-fighters with both of them and they'd all live happily ever after. (Everything being about sex is one of my turnoffs, both in b..."

I'd like to see more books with just friend characters. Wish I'd stop coming up with ones that have romance. Ha.

My first book was friend characters, but it changed by the second. I feel a bit of pressure to write romance into my stories because it's so wildly popular. My readers REALLY wanted romance between some of my characters and it was a natural progression, so... but I really do like books with little or no romance, or at least that aren't FOCUSED on romance. And for goodness' sake, we don't need a token erotic scene. Most books have them even if they don't have much romance. It's like the publisher sent back the first draft with a note, 'Where's the sex scene? Don't you know you have to have one before we'll publish you?' Sometimes they come from nowhere and in the most ridiculous settings. I'm sorry, but if you're injured, hiding in a cave (stone floors, no mattresses) as you're running for your life, and you're out of water with little hope of finding more, I don't think you're really going to be in the mood. Or am I only speaking for myself?
Sometimes it fits, and I'm not complaining about that. I just hate that sometimes if feels obligatory and forced.

I actually don't like it when a book that I haven't read is a cultural phenomenon! For example - a few years back I was put off when I saw every other passenger on the tube reading The DaVinci Code. It was so annoying - it even appeared to me that they were posing with the book. A silly irritation I know but I just can't help it. I felt the same about seeing everybody holding Fifty Shades of Grey. I could go on, and I also extend this to film and television. I'm simply put off by something that everybody is reading or watching. I guess the logical thing to do would be to see it as a piece of storytelling that I should probably check out since everybody else is doing so. But I think the main reason why things like this bother me is because I've always loved the escapism of storytelling. I also love the fact that in the literary world one can meet such unique individuals. But I feel as if when something like a book becomes a phenomenon most people may find it's quality hard to judge. Do I really like this is book, or do I feel the need to say it's good because everybody else says so? Does it make me weird that I don't like this book? Maybe, so I'll say it's good! And possibly worst of all: "I should probably say how beautiful and thought provoking this book is otherwise people might deem me unintelligent.

Maybe my above answer would be more appropriate for the question; what puts you off reading a book in the first place?

Ha!

Michael wrote: "I actually don't like it when a book that I haven't read is a cultural phenomenon! For example - a few years back I was put off when I saw every other passenger on the tube reading The DaVinci Code..."

I know how you feel a bit. Sometimes when a book is talked about by everyone, I get tired of hearing about it and just want it to go away. It doesn't make me want to read the book more, but less likely to read it.

For me it depends on if the people recommending it are people I trust or just media. I do tend to be skeptical of books that are all the rage.

GG, repetition and 'as' are things I can be guilt of. I do try and avoid them as much as possible.

Although I do appear to have used 'as' twice in the previous sentence... damn it.

Christian, a total absence of humour can sometimes put me off. Even in the darkest of worlds, there are moments of levity. Not having humour is as odd as having a book without fear, or desire.

What turns me off (as can be found in my 'Stopped Reading reviews'):
1)Lazy writing.
2)Info dumps.
3)Lack of verisimilitude.

And not strictly in that order.

Thaddeus wrote: "GG, repetition and 'as' are things I can be guilt of. I do try and avoid them as much as possible.

Although I do appear to have used 'as' twice in the previous sentence... damn it..."

Ah but those 'as' are not the ones I was talking about. Those are ok 'as'. ;)

:)

Christian wrote: "I agree - typos are bad, but I can overlook them.

What puts me off are bland or unlikable characters. If I like the character I will read no matter how predictable the plot if only to "see" the c..."

Agreed. I hate shallow or unbelievable characters. I also hate no world/character building.
Not just crimes from Indies either. There are plenty in trad pubbed books.

AL, I really like world-building, but it can be a tightrope. From a writing perspective, it's very tempting to become a fantasy tour guide showing the reader what a lovely world you've made.

Not that I've ever done that, of course. Ahem.

That's actually one of the things that's turned me off from fantasy, the world building. I want just enough to give me a feeling and sense of being there. If things are described very much I think it takes away from the actual story and I either skim or just quit. A lot of popular series seem to spend a lot of time detailing people, trees, creatures, and all that, and it just isn't very interesting to me. I know people who love it, so I'm glad they have books to read, but it's not for me. But really, I think you can have excellent world building without over describing. I've read some books where I felt at home in the world but it wasn't described all that much. I think it's a matter of style.

I would agree. There is a happy medium when world building. You need enough for your mind to fill in the blanks.

Terry, your comment got posted thrice for some reason [happens sometimes] so I deleted two of the duplicates.

Deciding how much of a gap to leave for the reader's imagination to fill can be very difficult (both in terms of description and plot twists). When twists are obvious, they're tedious, but if they come too far from left field they read as deus ex machina.

For me it's authors who are trying to be funny but obviously don't know how. This applies to in-person meetings as well. There is nothing more annoying and sad than someone blurting out joke after joke, all falling flat.

In a book it's worse. I've read ones where authors put in one stale wisecrack after another. Usually the jokes are cheesy, really old, or have been uttered on sitcoms for decades.

Most books don't have much comedy, and I am glad for that. It is when they try really hard to include that it is just sad.

Bad or immature narrative. This has become more common with the explosion of the YA genre. However, I detest when a narrative takes an over melodramatic tone in everything it does.
The moment a character or a narrative pines about everything and tells rather than shows, I'm done. This is especially annoying when it happens in random and inappropriate places in a story.

The bad guy was over me. But why didn't Jack ask me out? I'm so sad. This is definitely sad. I punched the bad guy in the face and saved the day. But I'm still sad because Jack wouldn't ask me out. I'm so sad it hurt my feelings.

That may be over dramatic itself, but it represents a lot of what I read in Indie YA...and it makes me sad.

poor writing (i don't mean sloppy or failing to adhere strictly to the chicago manual. i mean ugly, inartful sentences).

if the writting is bad, i can't even get to other elements like plot and characterization.

R.A. wrote: "That's actually one of the things that's turned me off from fantasy, the world building. I want just enough to give me a feeling and sense of being there. If things are described very much I think ..."

i agree with this 100%. i used to like fanstasy, but gave up on it when it was taken over by the trend of descriptions of tea cozies and turtles and the piping on someone's lapel, going on for so long that when the story resumed, you've completely forgotten what was happening. =)

A.L. wrote: "Christian wrote: "I agree - typos are bad, but I can overlook them.

What puts me off are bland or unlikable characters. If I like the character I will read no matter how predictable the plot if o..."

i'm a fairly strict chekhov's gun advocate regarding any description, whether of things, places, or characters etc.

if an author is going to tell me what something looks like or sounds like or smells like, i want it to be for a specific, necessary reason not just because the author likes blue eyes etc.

i think a good way for authors to check themselves with this, is to pretend they are telling someone right in front of them whatever it is they are describing as if it was something that just happened to them to in real life.

if it would seem weird or silly or unnecessary to go into detail about what something looked like etc. in a real life situation, there's a pretty good chance it will seem that way to a reader to.

Christian wrote: "I agree - typos are bad, but I can overlook them.

What puts me off are bland or unlikable characters. If I like the character I will read no matter how predictable the plot if only to "see" the c..."

there is a great online editing program called aurocrit that runs reports on repeated words, highlights them, let's you know exactly how many times you used each word, and how closely. It also has a report that specifically looks for filler words like "as."

it's a great a program. i can't recommend it enough.

One dimensional characters. Inconsistency.

Inconsistency's a killer, whether that's with characters or the rules of the world. A fantasy world can do pretty much anything, but blatant inconsistency makes it ridiculous.

Indeed.

Christian wrote: "I agree with everyone so far on the technical stuff - "as" and "was" and typos, etc. But I think for me, the fastest way to turn me off has more to do with tone than technical finesse. I hate self-..."
I feel the same way! I've read some books that sound as if the author is trying to prove how smart they are. It's especially annoying if the author uses "big words" and think that makes quality writing despite sloppy everything else (looking at you, E.L. James.)