The Sword and Laser discussion

After all the discussion in the other thread, I thought I’d just go ahead and create a new thread to discuss the classic books we’ve been reading, whether SFF or not. I’d define “classic” loosely as 20th-century or earlier but feel free to argue about it - that’s what discussion threads are for!

So, what classic books have you read lately? I’ve been reading the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian - I recently finished the second book, Post Captain. An interesting look at the Royal Navy during the napoleonic wars with adventures on the high seas, very memorable characters and some great moments of humour. A big influence on any subsequent books about sailing ships - to bring the discussion back to contemporary SFF, you can really see the influence of O’Brian on the The Bone Ships by R.J. Barker.

Ruth wrote: "I’ve been reading the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian"

Which reminds me that I've been meaning to add Master and Commander to my TBR list. I had a strong interest in all things maritime when growing up (influenced by many holiday trips to the Historic Dockyard in Portsmouth, and The Captain Cook Museum in Middlesbrough), so it will be fun to re-kindle this.

I also feel like there is a huge overlap in the Venn Diagram of the novels about the Napoleonic Wars (and similar historical periods) and common fantasy world-building tropes. Much like "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", any sufficiently old historical context is indistinguishable from fantasy.

Another sci-fi series that has obvious O'Brian influence is the RCN series by David Drake starting with With the Lightnings. There's a captain who is in their absolute element when aboard ship, but who tends to make sillier decisions ashore. There's a signals officer who is really something of a spy. They seem as if they shouldn't really get along, but somehow rely on each other a lot.

On the other hand, Honor Harrington, in the series by David Weber, seems much more of a Horatio Hornblower to me. They're a bit more earnest, not quite as deep.

I know there's some folks who, like me, are moving through the Discworld series now too, which are aging if not classics. It was startling to be wrapping up with Men at Arms (the City Watch book with the "gonne") at the same time there was a school shooting two towns down the road here in Iowa. The way the gun in the book convinces people that it is an easy solution to all their problems is really haunting. These books are thirty years old and still feel relevant.

I did most of my "Classic" readings in the 1980s & 1990s. My first foray into audio books, back when it came in the form of a suitcase of cassette tapes, involves books considered classics. First, I did the American classics, then the British, French and Russian classics. Back then you could run into a bad narration on a regular basis, unlike now. Candide is one of the funniest, Tess of the D’Urbervilles one of the saddest.

Seth wrote: "These books are thirty years old"

And now I feel old.

On the subject of nautical themes, another classic is, of course, Moby-Dick or, The Whale. I originally read and loved this when I was very young, although it subsequently became clear that I must have read an abridged version since, when I re-read it much later, I don't think my 10 year old self would have been quite so forgiving of the endless sections on the minutiae of whaling.

I do sometimes wonder how many people judge a book a classic by an abridged versions they read as a child, rather than full-throated original versions.

Steve wrote: "Seth wrote: "These books are thirty years old"

And now I feel old.

On the subject of nautical themes, another classic is, of course, Moby-Dick or, The Whale. I originally read and l..."
I read Moby Dick recently as well! The sections on whaling and whales were pretty interminable but I found the central story compelling and there was some humour there too - especially with Queequeg telling tall tales about his native lands “oh yes we’re cannibals and we also use people as furniture”

Ruth wrote: "Queequeg telling tall tales about his native lands “oh yes we’re cannibals and we also use people as furniture”
"

On the SFnal influence side, any chance Queequeg influenced Iain Banks? Since the "furniture" bit makes an appearance in his Culture book, iirc, "Use of Weapons."

I'm reading Magician: Apprentice right now and really enjoying it. It was published in 1982.
The last non-sff book I read was The Raven in the Foregate, part of the Brother Cadfael series. They're about a monk in the 1100's who solves mysteries. I inherited a bunch of these from my mother and read one every year or two. I find them nice and cozy. it was published in 1987.
My Heinlein reread last year was I Will Fear No Evil from 1970. It's probably his worst book and sucks pretty hard. I'm a Heinlein fanatic but would not recommend it.

I’ve just booked tickets to see Henry IV parts one and two (starring Sir Ian McKellen aka Gandalf as Falstaff) in March, I’m now listening to a full-cast recording of the play to familiarise myself with the text beforehand. If Shakespeare doesn’t count as a classic, I don’t know what does. I haven’t seen any live theatre for aaages so I’m really looking forward to it. I’ve never seen or read Henry IV before.

Ooh, nice; I haven’t seen any live shakespeare in ages - is this a modern retelling?

Steve wrote: "Ooh, nice; I haven’t seen any live shakespeare in ages - is this a modern retelling?"

I’m not sure, I guess I’ll find out when I see it!

I'd have to watch Henry 1, 2 & 3 before I saw 4.

Weird that Billy boy broke 4 up into 2 parts.

Just copying Harry Potter and Hunger Games.

Bill never was original. Filling his plays up with outdated cliches, puns and wordplay

😉 😜

Riffing on Trike's comment in the "What are you reading" thread, some Shakespeare plays are arguably Fantasy. Looking at Midsummer Night's Dream and The Tempest here.

Also, on the subject of Classics vs SF: Where do they intersect? Perhaps more often than we might think. Oh "Classics" are regularly selected for stodgy prose and "merit" that escapes me. It isn't always so. Most of Dickens was written for the mass market. But, say, Foundation? Heavily influenced by "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

Anyway, on to today's reading. Foreword to the combined "Man Who Sold the Moon" and "Orphans of the Sky" which contains the following:

"(The book) challenges our acceptance of the circumstances we encounter as 'normal' and might also be read as an extended gloss on one of Heinlein's favorite quotations, from George Bernard Shaw's Caesar and Cleopatra: 'Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.'"

Anyhoo, not gonna front, on average I find "Classics" to be a duty read, something to have read rather than enjoy reading. Nothing wrong with working them in from time to time.

Some classics don't stand the test of time for various reasons. Outdated prose, attitudes towards women, race, diverse lifestyles etc.

But many do still standup. H.G. Wells, while slower than modern S.F still does read well.

Like Verne, Poe and other contemporaries, you do have to be mindful of the time it was written, but they all do stand up.

I'll admit I'm not a Shakespeare fan, when trying to watch or read them in the original text. But give me a modern English re-imagining and I'm in.

As for modern classics like Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Tolkien etc. As I grew up with them, I don't find them as dated as younger readers going back to them. Apart from Tolkien, I was reading them while they were still alive.

Not a fan of reading Bill. I do enjoy watching his plays in the theatre tho.

On that topic I just finished Sir Patrick Stewart's "Making it So." Would have enjoyed seeing some of his later performances.

Oaken wrote: "Not a fan of reading Bill. I do enjoy watching his plays in the theatre tho.

On that topic I just finished Sir Patrick Stewart's "Making it So." Would have enjoyed seeing some of his later perform..."

Yeah, I tried reading some of the text of Henry IV and on the page it’s dry and lifeless. It comes to life in the performance. The full-cast version on audible is pretty good so far, and I’ll probably watch the BBC “Hollow Crown” version as well before I see it live.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Anyhoo, not gonna front, on average I find "Classics" to be a duty read, something to have read rather than enjoy reading"

Yes, my impression is that regardless of how well read a book is, it usually takes being in the write frame of mind/life situation to enjoy them. I developed an appreciation of Hemingway in my twenties, at a time when short, punchy writing style, along with the "hard men making hard decisions" themes, appealed to me (having said that, one of my favourites is A Movable Feast, predominantly because of the evocative portrait it paints of inter-bellum Paris).

On the other hand, during the same period of my life, F. Scott Fitzgerald's writing would have probably bored me (being more lyrical). Reading The Great Gatsby now, a few decades later, was a revelation and led me to re-appraise my approach to classics (as you say, I previously saw them more a duty reads). Thank god I never had to read it as school however.

At the risk of going too far off-topic, on the subject of Master and Commander, by coincidence one of the podcasts I follow has just released a short series on the real life inspiration for the books: Thomas Cochrane. His life was truly one that would sound over-embellished if it were presented as fiction.

If anyone is interested, the first part of the 3 part series can be found here: https://podcasts.apple.com/sn/podcast...

^^ Hemingway has the benefit of being short. I know, going into a book, that it won't become an onerous read. The Old Man and the Sea is only 27K words. Probably I'll move on to another...which might be A Moveable Feast. We read Farewell to Arms in high school and I found it rather depressing.

On average I find it amusing that high schoolers are tasked with reading books that really require life experience to understand. I understood Gatsby far better in the post-college "striving" portion of my life.

And, some classics are as you take them. By rights I should have liked Treasure Island as it is plausibly fantasy, certainly a boy's adventure. I found it deathly dull and trudged my way through it 20 pages or so at a time, during lunches at a job I left five years ago (book was probably five years before that.) But, at least I get the references now. Peter Pan, decent but not great, and same, I get the references and see what they changed for the movie. A Tale of Two Cities I found a potboiler adventure book and am roundly amused it's considered "literature."

Steve wrote: "At the risk of going too far off-topic, on the subject of Master and Commander, by coincidence one of the podcasts I follow has just released a short series on the real life inspira..."

Thanks, looks interesting, I’ll check it out

I've no doubt I'll work some old stuff into my queue this year -- another couple H. Rider Haggard novels, probably some Edgar Rice Burroughs (Pellucidar and maybe more Tarzan), Harold Lamb ... And of more recent vintage, this might be the year when I finally give Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond books a try.

Have we had a discussion on who are modern SciFi/Fantasy Classic writers? I saw Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Tolkien mentioned but would add Phillip K. Dick. Are William Gibson and Douglas Adams too "soon" to be classic? If no thread exists we should have one.

Calvey wrote: "Have we had a discussion on who are modern SciFi/Fantasy Classic writers? I saw Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Tolkien mentioned but would add Phillip K. Dick. Are William Gibson and Douglas Adams too ..."

I agree with you about PKD. I just went looking for the SFWA Grandmasters list to see who else I'd include, and was shocked to find PKD was not on the list. I always thought of it as the ABC's (and sometimes D) of Science Fiction were Asimov, Bradbury, and Clarke, and for me Dick. That of course leaves out a lot of folks who should also be in the conversation, but it was an easy go to.

Le Guin and Heinlein for sure in my mind. Anne McCaffrey and Lary Niven should also be in the conversation. I know I'm missing a lot, and everyone has there own list of who's who. But for me I'm thinking of folks who were writing over 40 years ago (I think every one of them was writing over 60 years ago), and who have stood the test of time to the point where they are still reprinted today.

Calvey wrote: "Have we had a discussion on who are modern SciFi/Fantasy Classic writers? I saw Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Tolkien mentioned but would add Phillip K. Dick. Are William Gibson and Douglas Adams too ..."
Here's a list I suggested a couple years ago of authors that haven't been group reads yet but might be considered classics.:
H. G. Wells
Jules Verne
Robert E. Howard
E. E. Doc Smith
C. S. Lewis
Fritz Leiber
Jack Vance
Hal Clement
Poul Anderson
John Wyndham
Robert Silverberg (both as author and editor)
Clifford Simak
James Tiptree Jr.
Robert Sheckley
Philip Jose Farmer
Roger Zelazny
Theodore Sturgeon
Harlan Ellison (both as author and editor)
Spider (and Jeanne) Robinson
John Varley
Vonda McIntyre
David Brin
Douglas Adams
Bruce Sterling
Jerry Pournelle (with or without Larry Niven and others)
Ben Bova
David and Leigh Eddings
Greg Bear
Stephen Donaldson
R. A. Salvatore

^ we’ve read James Tiptree Jr, Brightness Falls from the Air what a popular pick that was…

I forgot about CS Lewis, I guess I always think of him as a children's book author. Shame on me.

I would put Verne and Wells on traditional Classic list.

Lastly there are some names on there that I can't believe we haven't read. Like Adams, Salvatore, Brin and Eddings....

Ruth wrote: "^ we’ve read James Tiptree Jr, Brightness Falls from the Air what a popular pick that was…"

read my mind..

Ruth wrote: "^ we’ve read James Tiptree Jr, Brightness Falls from the Air what a popular pick that was…"

I just copy and pasted that list from my previous post. It must have been before we read Tiptree. I did delete a few from the end that haven't been around that long.

Johnny Storm likes Jane Eyre (Whatever Happened to the Fantastic Four Vol 1 - Ryan North)

Calvey wrote: "Ruth wrote: "^ we’ve read James Tiptree Jr, Brightness Falls from the Air what a popular pick that was…"
read my mind.."

The reaction to this book always gets me. My take on it was:

James Tiptree Jr.: "I'm a former CIA operative. My husband is the Director of the CIA. We've seen things so horrifying you wouldn't believe them, and we are unable to share them due to secrecy requirements. Here's a fictionalized account of the most disgusting ones. I'm trusting you to read between the lines."

S&L Response: "Why is James Tiptree Jr. justifying child porn?"

Calvey wrote: "I forgot about CS Lewis, I guess I always think of him as a children's book author. Shame on me. "

Eh. Narnia is his most popular by far so it's an easy classification. I've read the Space trilogy and yeah, hard slog. I'm glad to have read them, good philosophical points, but it was work and I don't think I would do it again. Think I've read Narnia all the way through four times.

I have only really read Narnia. (except for some letters or whatnot around him and Tolkien - not even sure). I would read Narnia any day of the week. :).

^ Time of life may matter. I remember picking up Perelandra in my teen years and just dropping it after 50 pages. Fast forward four decades and I found the going tough but tolerable, and the insights worth getting.

Some of it is unintentionally hilarious. We have this staunch Christian author but in the third book, Merlin shows up and the narrator opines that back in the day the dividing line between Pagan and Christian wasn't so hard and hey, it's Merlin! Then by the end the spirit of Venus shows up and everyone has sex. Oh....kay then!

Wow that is selling that book!

@Ruth - which Henry IV audiobook are you listening to? Coincidentally, my wife has also bought us tickets to see Player Kings in April, so I want to brush up...

Phil wrote: "Calvey wrote: "Have we had a discussion on who are modern SciFi/Fantasy Classic writers? I saw Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Tolkien mentioned but would add Phillip K. Dick. Are William Gibson and Dou..."

We should read Galactic Patrol. 😜

I'm always good for an EE Doc Smith reread. We could trace the followups, one of which is Green Lantern.

I’m reading milton’s paradise lost.

I’m surprised how easy it is to read.

I’m also going to try and wrap up reading the complete works of Shakespeare a project that has taken more than 3 years

What are some classic books that have very good world-building? I've just finished Master and Commander, which manages to be engrossing despite also being intricately detailed regarding sailing during the Napoleonic era (unlike, for example, Moby-Dick or, The Whale, which, in my recollection, was more an infodump with interludes).

Another example is Jamaica Inn, which manages to capture the windswept landscape of Bodmin Moor very well. I seemed to remember that The Hound of the Baskervilles does a similar job for Dartmoor.

So, any recommendations for books that manage to evoke their physical setting very well and, crucially, remain enjoyable?

Steve wrote: "What are some classic books that have very good world-building? I've just finished Master and Commander, which manages to be engrossing despite also being intricately detailed regar..."
The Riverworld books by Philip Jose Farmer was the first thing that came to mind. Or maybe some of Niven's books like Ringworld or The Integral Trees. Dreamsnake by Vonda McIntyre and Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward are also good.

Steve wrote: "What are some classic books that have very good world-building? I've just finished Master and Commander, which manages to be engrossing despite also being intricately detailed regar..."

There is a lexicon specifically for the Patrick O'Brian books. A Sea of Words: A Lexicon and Companion to the Complete Seafaring Tales of Patrick O'Brian. Well worth getting if you are going to read the series.

I read a couple of novels per year that I put on my classic’s bookshelf. In previous years I read novels that I had never read before from Ernest Heminway and John Steinbeck. Last year I started to read Charles Dickens. In December of 2023, I read David Copperfield and A Christmas Carol. I am currently reading Great Expectations. It's the story of Pip and his journey to becoming a gentleman. I plan to read Thomas Hardy after Dickens.

Gary wrote: "I read a couple of novels per year that I put on my classic’s bookshelf. In previous years I read novels that I had never read before from Ernest Heminway and John Steinbeck."

I read David Copperfield last year, a fantastic book. I also loved Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver, a kind of modern retelling set in Appalachia.

I received an orient express jigsaw puzzle for Christmas I’ve just got round to starting. Needing something to listen to while I put the pieces together, I’m going on a minor kick of listening to classic novels from the 1930s set on the orient express. First up is Stamboul Train by Graham Greene, an enjoyable thriller with an eccentric cast of characters. After I finish that I plan to move on to - of course - Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie. I first read it years ago and I can remember the central twist, but I think it should still be enjoyable to watch the mystery unfold.

I've just finished reading The Catcher in the Rye for the first time and I think I can state quite confidently that, from the perspective of a 50+ year old man, Holden Caulfield is one of the most irritating little sh*ts in all of literature. If I had read this when I was a teenager, I probably would have worshipped him (being an irritating little sh*t myself at the time).

Steve wrote: "I've just finished reading The Catcher in the Rye for the first time and I think I can state quite confidently that, from the perspective of a 50+ year old man, Holden Caulfield is one ..."

I read this as a teenager and absolutely loved it, but I have deliberately avoided re-reading it because I fear that I might have a similar reaction to you!

I recently realised that, although I am very familiar with the trope of Chekhov’s gun, I had never read (or seen) any of his actual works. So I’ve got a collection of his major plays from the local library and I’m working my way through them. Gotta say, I think the characters would save a lot of trouble if they stopped leaving guns lying around!

^ Okay. Pick one - ONE - that you would recommend. And I will consider powering through it.

I'm in a similar boat in that I have heard of many Russian authors but have read only a few. IIRC it has been since high school and, well, whatever is the one where the husband behaves abominably and the wife leaves. Hubby is a banker and was saved during a period of illness by a loan from a guy who he later treats like dirt.

As for Catcher, I read it somewhere around college and thought, "wow, these entitled fucks sure do make up things to get angsty about." Was around too many trust fund kiddies in my youth.