The BURIED Book Club discussion

Exists, truly, in a Dutch translation, Het leven in stukken. Possibly a Turkish Ulysses type of thing, which makes translation difficult.

For more, including a piece in English about the novel from its Dutch translator, see The Untranslated ::
https://theuntranslated.wordpress.com...

Fascinating. This sounds wildly problematic re translation, what with the pre- and post- Attatürk Turkish, and the bizarro (from an English perspective) syntax. I've heard of this guy but not this book. I'll ask around among my Turk netbuddies to see if I can score a sample passage in English.

Gregsamsa wrote: " I'll ask around among my Turk netbuddies to see if I can score a sample passage in English. "

Cool! The thing is is that if this thing's got 3500+ gr ratings, then maybe gr is in fact a bit more international in its membership than I had previously given them credit. Still and all... But too, if there's anything available by him in English, you'll let us know?

.......

So I did post this thing yesterday without looking much further hoping that the good, solid, and upright members of the BBC would take the ball and run. Which they did. So now to catch up with you=all. The wikipedia has something veryveryvery promising ::

His first novel, Tutunamayanlar (The Disconnected*), appeared 1971-72. Never reprinted in his lifetime and controversial among critics, it has become a best-seller since a new edition came out in 1984. It has been described as “probably the most eminent novel of twentieth-century Turkish literature”: this reference is due to a UNESCO survey, which goes on: “it poses an earnest challenge to even the most skilled translator with its kaleidoscope of colloquialisms and sheer size.” In fact one translation has so far been published, into Dutch: Het leven in stukken, translated by Hanneke van der Heijden and Margreet Dorleijn (Athenaeum-Polak & v Gennep, 2011). It appears also that a complete English translation exists, of which an excerpt won the Dryden Translation Prize in 2008: { http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/... -- names of translators :: SEVIN SEYDI and MAURICE WHITBY }. His book of short stories, Korkuyu Beklerken, has appeared in a French translation by Jocelyne Burkmann and Ali Terzioglu as En guettant la peur, Paris, L'Harmattan, March 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%C4%9Fu...

In other words, we have another Zettel's Traum situation.

But check that wiki=article for more reasons to salivate, ie --: "His subject matter is frequently the detritus of Western culture — translations of tenth-rate historical novels, Hollywood fantasy films, trivialities of encyclopaedias, Turkish tangos.... — but it is plain to any reader that he had a deep knowledge of Western literature. First come the great Russians, particularly Dostoevsky..... But as the fracturing of society in 20th-century Europe gave birth to the modern novel, so James Joyce, Franz Kafka, Vladimir Nabokov and others licensed his revolutionising the Turkish novel." ETC ETC.

Found one German thing :: Der Mathematiker



* aka "The Good for Nothing"

He's got a book of short stories translated into both French and German ::
Warten auf die Angst
En guettant la peur

UNESCO says ::

Tutunamayanlar (The Losers)
by Oğuz Atay

Summary of the book: The young engineer Turgut Özben investigates the reasons behind his close friend Selim Işik’s suicide. People close to Selim Işik pool their knowledge to shed light on the unknown aspects of his life. In his last days, Selim was assembling an “encyclopedia of losers” wherein he had reserved an entry for himself. The encyclopedia proves helpful in revealing self-knowledge to Turgut Özben. In the course of his investigation: he too is a loser, or a perennial nobody; to date he has been going through the motions of habit and ritual. He makes a clean break, leaves home, and boards a train never to be seen again.

Reasons for this choice: Probably the most eminent novel of twentieth-century Turkish literature, a work that won high critical acclaim and popular following, Tutunamayanlar offers an endless series of tragicomic observations, an expansive and critical panorama of Turkish manners, attitudes and clichés through a profound sense of irony, parody, dark humor and existential questioning. Although it poses an earnest challenge to even the most skilled translator with its kaleidoscope of colloquialisms and sheer size (nearly 700 pages), it represents Turkish literature at its best. Its translation into the wide-known language of the world is a must.
First publication: 1971-1972 - (two volumes); current edition: 2002 (27th printing) [!!!!! -"N.R."]
http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/e...

[all html from "N.R."]

Perhaps send an email to Open Letter or Dalkey recommending?

The thing is is that if this thing's got 3500+ gr ratings, then maybe gr is in fact a bit more international in its membership than I had previously given them credit.

Turks rock some serious reading on GR, as I discovered when I saw that my boy Aziz Nesin had a bazillion reviewers here and nearly none in English. There seems to be a strange semi-bias against Turkish lit among publishers. It's Other, but not Other enough like Arabic or Persian.

Somewhere I think I have an essay by Orhan Pamuk on Atay (btw the g in his first name is semi-silent, a placeholder satisfying the Turkish allergy to adjacent vowels so it's like "Oh-ooz" "Ah-tie"). I'll try to find it online. A critical essay on Atay was his first real writing gig if I remem ber correctly.

A commenter over at The Untranslated points out that Contra Mundum Press lists Korkuyu Beklerken as a forthcoming publication, Englished as “While Waiting for Fear”. This is the short story collection already available in German and French ::
http://contramundum.net/forthcoming-b...

They are the publisher of Prae: Vol. 1, aka, the Hungarian Ulysses.

Bless you for this thread, btw.

It doesn't translate right because Turkish is agglutinitive, but the title is more literally "Those who lose."

Or "The Ones Who Lose."

I think in English "The Losers" brings in different connotations.

I'm thinking of just getting a copy of the 33rd f***'ing edition in Turkish ::
http://www.amazon.com/Tutunamayanlar/...

This is all most fascinating. That Hungarian aside in here as well. Thanks, as always!

Nate D wrote: "This is all most fascinating. That Hungarian aside in here as well. Thanks, as always!"

Just to run the numbers. I have both the Prae and Tutunamayanlar on my xyz-ulysses shelf (courtesy of Joshua Cohen) and Tutunamayanlar is the second most rated on gr, right after Mrs. Dalloway. I've read only 4 of the 16 (I've expanded slightly beyond Cohen's list) and all are mind=blowing; as I anticipate the others are as well.

A Goodreader friend Devrim told me he would ask his translator's mail-group about Eng/Turkish translations. Although I think most of them translate to Turkish (Devrim translates from French), mebbe some of them have done a little excerpt or something that might give us a li'l taste. Tutunamayanlar happens to be one of Devrim's favorite novels, and though the link he shared with me carries some overlap info with what Nathan kindly posted above, here it is anyway:

http://www.literatuuruitturkije.nl/en...

Yes! That talk is linked in the Untranslated's article, but it deserves a direct link. At least we have some Dutch teasers!

Hey there ! Just wanted to drop in and give some information as a native Turkish speaker.

Now, the book IS wildy problematic in terms of translation, starting from the very beginning, the title.

The "supposed" title used in the translation, "The Disconnected", doesn't really mean the same thing as "Tutunamayanlar". (A more literal title would be "those who cannot hold on".)
However, it seems like an appropriate one because the author himself used the term "disconnectus erectus" parodically to refer to the people in question.

The (mythical) complete translation who won the Dryden Prize seems to be written by Sevin Seydi and Maurice Whitby. I don't know who Maurice Whitby is, but Sevin Seydi is the wife of the author Oğuz Atay. It is said that she translated the book as he wrote, (around 1971-72), which is strange. If a complete translation had existed, I believe it would've been published, after 44 years. I don't think that there exists a complete translation, perhaps an incomplete one.

Also, let me give an example of the "problematicness" I'm talking about.

In the novel, the main characters "Selim Işık" and "Turgut Özben" sometimes call each other as "Selimciğim Işık" and "Turgutçuğum Özben"
Let's analyze that : "Selim-cik-im" (k becomes ğ, due to consonant change.)
Selim is the proper noun, and "-im" is the possesive suffix (meaning mine). The "-cik" is the equivalent of "-chen" in German. It is used to create a "diminutive" form. It also adds feelings like "compassion, tolerance, and affection."
How are we going to deal with this ? Can we use "My dear little one Selim Işık" ? or "little Selim Işık my dear" ? or should we just ignore it ?

It's almost as if Oğuz Atay predicted our struggle :


"This song is the myth of the Disconnected,
My fellow Süleyman Kargı.
Hands float in emptiness, cannot cling to the soil,
cannot tell the untellable.
It needs to be told: the enemy has surrounded us.

Oolonthegreat wrote: "Hey there ! Just wanted to drop in and give some information as a native Turkish speaker."

Thanks for dropping by, Oolonthegreat. I've got my fingers crossed that we'll have Atay in English before the century is out!

http://www.turkishstudies.net/Makalel...

In this article, you might understand the reason why this novel is having trouble with translation to other languages. Atay is highly influenced by Joyce and uses stream of consciousness in his great work "Tutunamayanlar" and like Joyce's works, these novels are highly problematic to translate into any other language, let alone the fact that they are even hard to understand for their native readers. I, myself, as an English Language and Literature student, still do not feel myself ready to read "Tutunamayanlar". I feel the same way for Joyce's "Ulysses". However, these authors have other novels that might be more suitable for a common reader. Like Joyce's "The Portrait of a Young Man as an Artist" and Atay's "Korkuyu Beklerken" or "Tehlikeli Oyunlar" Atay is also highly influenced by Nabokov's "Pale Fire". Until we, Turkish readers understand Atay, and translate his novels and journals, I am sure that we have to be patient and wait for many more years.

Here is a passage from Atay's journal that he wrote in 1970. I tried to translate it as much as I can, but, of course this passage is not enough to understand his ideas completely.

"I feel that we are a nation that is still a child and we conceive the events and the world in the most serious meaning from an aspect of miracles, and being tied to myths. In a deadly serious way that a smart westerner would laugh away.

Another point is, we have such a sloppiness that our drama and tragedy happens in an inconceivable manner. Also, we are not aware of the fact that we are in a tragedy. We guess that we live and die beautifully. Those who are in power, express this guessing for the nation. There's no one that understands this fact except some intellectuals and these intellectuals say nothing but some social sayings. The psychological aspect of this issue is being left aside."

Damn, glad this thread got bumped - not just to bring this book/author to my awareness, but also because of Prae and Contra Mundrum Press, neither of which were on my radar (but my wish list just grew by 20 or so books...)

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. It sounds like another Devil to Pay in the Backlands. Lots of people want it but the translators say"you don't understand how impossible this is"

Sevin Seydi's translation of The Disconnected will appear in a very small edition from Olric Press early in 2017,
ISBN: 978-0-9955543-0-6

Maurice wrote: "Sevin Seydi's translation of The Disconnected will appear in a very small edition from Olric Press early in 2017,
ISBN: 978-0-9955543-0-6"

Looking forward to this! Thanks.

http://us9.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8...

Hello there guys! Anyone who had the time to check the new translation by Sevin Seydi?

https://www.amazon.com/Disconnected-O...

As a Turkish speaker, Oğuz Atay lover and researcher myself, I have devoted a considerable amount of years to Atay's work, written articles and theses on his major works and humbly tried to translate Tutunamayanlar into English. I have gone as far as translating the first 100 pages, as well. But Seydi was obviously faster than me :) actually we all know that she was already translating this novel as Atay was writing it in the apartment they shared back in the 70s. You can't imagine how happy I am to see that Atay is finally open to the whole world with this translation and I hope you guys will all enjoy it. I admit that The Disconnected is a groundbreaker, despite being the author's first novel. But if you ask my opinion, Tutunamayanlar is not his best, I wish you could have the chance to read his second and, by far, the best novel: Tehlikeli Oyunlar (Dangerous Games).
Here is a challenge to Seydi, then :)
Good day to all!

A question about the translation of this novel - I know the title (literal translation: "those who cannot hold on" per the introduction) has been translated to "The Disconnected"; but, in the text, the term "the Disconnected" pops up with some frequency - is that an occurrence of "tutunamayanlar" in the original text? i.e.: should I read the reference as "those who cannot hold on" within the text itself? Or are there actual occurrences in the text when a different term is also being translated to "the Disconnected"?

i do not have the english translation but in the original text the word "tutunamayanlar" appears twice in the long poem section: first in the 10th verse and the second as the first word of the fifth song (528th verse of the poem). while he is doing his pale fire thing, the term occurs again in the section of encyclopedia of the strange creatures with a parenthesis (disconnectus erectus). (is the disconnectus erectus thing there in the english trabslation?) so you can read the term as both, disconnected and those who cannot hold on to.

tutunamaynlar pops up after that more frequently, almost more than thirty times.

Manuk wrote: "i do not have the english translation but in the original text the word "tutunamayanlar" appears twice in the long poem section: first in the 10th verse and the second as the first word of the fift..."

I definitely noticed "the Disconnected" in the long poem section (i'd need to go back to see if "disconnectus erectus" appears; though I believe I do remember seeing it). And the frequency with which you reference tutunamayanlar showing up in the text would appear to coincide with the frequency with which I'm seeing "the Disconnected" pop up. I'm around 400 pages in, and it's probably shown up around 15 times so far.

Thanks so much for the response!

And yes, Disconnectus erectus does appear in the translation.

Ronald wrote: "A question about the translation of this novel - I know the title (literal translation: "those who cannot hold on" per the introduction) has been translated to "The Disconnected"; but, in the text,..."

I took it as "those who cannot hold on" being the definition of "tutunamaynlar" but "The disconnected" as the translation. That is, even in Turkish "tutunamaynlar" gets defined as the Turkish equivalent of "those who cannot hold on". In other words, both the word and the definition get translated.


edit'd to correct :: er, in the introduction a definition for the translation is provided.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Ronald wrote: "A question about the translation of this novel - I know the title (literal translation: "those who cannot hold on" per the introduction) has been translated to "The Disconnected"; bu..."

In the English translation, where 'the Disconnected' appears with a capital letter the Turkish will read 'tutunamayanlar', and there is a clear reference to the subject implied in the title. At three places, pages 255, 654 and 711, 'disconnected' is used in lower case. This is translating a form of the same verb in Turkish. and its relation to the commoner use is for the reader to judge.

[edit'd to add this was directed at Nathan; Maurice's comment was not loaded on the page for me when I responded] You lost me on everything prior to your edit.

I did go back to the introduction - I had initially caught that the author and the translator had agreed upon using "The Disconnected" as the title for the English translation; but on first read I had missed the later note that tutunamaynlar was being directly translated as such.

Maurice wrote: "Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Ronald wrote: "A question about the translation of this novel - I know the title (literal translation: "those who cannot hold on" per the introduction) has been translated to ..."

Cool. Thanks!

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "A commenter over at The Untranslated points out that Contra Mundum Press lists Korkuyu Beklerken as a forthcoming publication, Englished as “While Waiting for Fear”. This is the short story collection already available in German and French ::
http://contramundum.net/forthcoming-b...

They are the publisher of Prae: Vol. 1, aka, the Hungarian Ulysses."

Anyone have any insight as to what happened with this? The "Forthcoming Releases" page no longer exists on CM's site, and it doesn't look like this ever saw the light of day.

Also - anyone checked this out yet: Philosophy, Literature, and the Dissolution of the Subject: Nietzsche, Musil, Atay (Studies in Social Sciences, Philosophy and History of Ideas)

0 ratings on GR, so I'd think not, but I'm contemplating picking up a copy - it's pricey though...

And, lastly: I read this! Review here. Cliffnotes - It's amazing, and you should get a copy if you can, which is becoming increasingly more difficult as the days go by.

Ronald wrote: "Nathan "N.R." wrote: "A commenter over at The Untranslated points out that Contra Mundum Press lists Korkuyu Beklerken as a forthcoming publication, Englished as “While Waiting for Fear”. This is t..."

http://contramundum.net/new/forthcoming/

This still shows the
WHILE WAITING FOR FEAR
OĞUZ ATAY
Translated by Mark Wyers

Thanks - looks like the URL changed since it was first posted!

Still shows the Senges as forthcoming... Also, I badly want like half of those to come out.

They are a really great press - and I love the style of their books. They have a subscription service I signed up for that I would wholeheartedly recommend.

Jonathan wrote: "They are a really great press - and I love the style of their books. They have a subscription service I signed up for that I would wholeheartedly recommend."

I've considered the subscription aspect - they just keep pushing off the books I'm actually interested in, so until some of those actually see the light of day I'll probably hold off on subscribing.

(I still buy their stuff though)

Ronald wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "They are a really great press - and I love the style of their books. They have a subscription service I signed up for that I would wholeheartedly recommend."

I've considered the s..."

Fair enough - I have certainly received some from them than are likely to remain unread for quite some time...