Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

This is a Buddy Read for The Obelisk Gate by N.K. Jemisinstarting on March 15, 2024.


Happy Reading!

Thank you!

1. The Fifth Season (Jan 15) [link]
2. The Obelisk Gate (Mar 15)
3. The Stone Sky (May 15) [link]
There's also a short story in How Long 'til Black Future Month? called "Stone Hunger" that was an early concept short for the series.

audiobook: no library/subscription copies
ebook: no library/subscription copies

If anyone finds any library/subscription copies, let me know and I will update...

I'm not in the best reading space to give this book the due focus it deserves, but I'm here anyway... Hopefully, I can ride the coat-tails of later readers and say a bit more...

Read the first 50% already, almost...

First 10-25% is a mix of recapping and new content... (view spoiler)[Finally get more of Nessun & Jinsun... and some Schaffa POV... (hide spoiler)]

25-50% (where I feel safer to talk a bit)... (view spoiler)[The loss of Nessun's innocence is tragic to watch (and even then, it's only a partial loss... she's still way too quick to trust Schaffa when he shows up...)

Jinsun is trying, but it's hard to throw off generational systemic bigotry/fear...

Schaffa is in moments empathetic/tragic, but it's impossible to forget everything he did in book 1, and is willing to do still, even just on muscle memory while he doesn't even remember his own history...

The seeming origin of orogenes as children of Guardians, with their connection to the Earth through the sessapine implant thing, is another interesting development...

And then, there's all the revelations from Alabaster & Antimony, about the history of this world, and the loss of the moon to a cometary orbit... (I think I just made that word up)... (hide spoiler)]

Starting this week somewhere...

Started! Chapter 1--(view spoiler)[And now we find out what happened to Nassun, the husband, and another POV on the child...

Can already tell that Nassun is going to be a complicated character.

"a look flitted across his face, as subtle as an earthquake..." love that description. (hide spoiler)]

Nirkatze wrote: "Started! Chapter 1 ..."

complicated is right

Aaand.... finished. Ooops. That's the trouble of reading on work days... I don't stop to comment. (view spoiler)[Nassun first comes across as... a bit sullen, I'd say, a child who definitely has her favorite parent and is willing to forgive him even murder... and blame it on her least favorite parent instead.

Learning that her--hatred? distrust? dislike?--of her mother is rooted in the same event that caused readers to hate Schaffa... that's deep. Especially when seen in conjunction with the comm where Essun is currently living--seeing that there is another way to raise and train orogenes that doesn't involve breaking hands and using pain and fear as a learning rod. Add to that Schaffa himself... stepping in as a better father figure than her own father, and struggling quite literally with his own demons, and his own history that made him the way he is... I actually started to like Schaffa in this book... it isn't easy to change--and to change what you believe is right--and to battle with your instincts and inner voices to do that right thing.

And even through the loss of innocence, even through being forced to kill her own father in self-defense... Nassun still remains a child, with a child's implicit trust and a child's knife-edge emotions. She's such a painful and interesting character.

Meanwhile, all the craziness going on over with Essun... I love that last bit, and the hope it gives... a Stone Eater made all out of Alabaster.... is it Alabaster? Once orogenes link with the obelisks and start turning to stone...

I really enjoyed the little bits of culture dropped out through here--that when a Season comes, they have a system that drops into place, Breeders and Hardbacks and Leaders get locked into roles and lateral movement requires Council rule. There are systems in place for cannibalism and extreme allocation of resources, even up to conquering other comms to keep your own alive... It actually reminds me a little of Seveneves, with the little we learn about the people who survived in caves... (hide spoiler)]

Nirkatze wrote: "Aaand.... finished. Ooops. That's the trouble of reading on work days... I don't stop to comment..."

I think you hit the salient points... (view spoiler)[I want to hate Schaffa on sight, so I basically do... it's not like he had a normal life of malevolence, he's like 4000 years old, kept alive by that thing he does consuming sessapine energy... seems to be a Guardian thing... gifted by the Earth Spirit...

In many ways, Essun's plotline feels like it's in a holding pattern in this book, giving it some strong Middle Book Syndrome vibes... saving the forward momentum for the finale... (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, this book feels like (view spoiler)[Nassun's book, more...

I remember reading an interview where Jemisin talked about wanting to upend regular tropes and conceptions about a "loving Mother Earth" and swap it for a vengeful Father Earth... (hide spoiler)]

Just after the first interlude in Ch. 5 ... (view spoiler)[ The first chapter with Schaffa's POV got me all angry again... His killing that whole family to get the little life force they provided him with! I wanted to kill him myself! However, his thinking since the almost drowning, sounds inhuman, and I am starting to think that maybe whatever forces create the Guardians, are entities from Father Earth and the Stone Eaters are connected with the broken Moon. I am speculating here...

Nassun is a child and I am trying really hard not to forget that, but her childish view of how Daddy is perfect while mommy is mean and she doesn't love me because she is trying to keep me alive and teach me how to be human, really pisses me off! It pisses me off even more because I can see how I was in her, when I was her age, and I hated myself for that... My dad was always working and travelling, so my mom and grandmas took care of us kids and everything else, so they had to enforce boundaries and consequences. Then my dad would show up and it would be like a holiday, presents, relaxed rules, staying up late, everyone happy... Until he was gone again in several days. So, he was the good guy and our mom was left to play the disciplinarian, thus vilified in our eyes... It took me to my early teens to figure that out... I tried to make it up as I grew up, I just didn't have much time, since cancer took her from us very early... I hope Nassun figures it out sooner...

Essun, what the heck were those flash eating Beatles and how were she and Alabaster able to neutralize them? Once again, I feel like the Earth is trying to kill all the people... And the doctor dude was not right attacking her like that - she can't just stop The Season like that, can she? Or if it is possible to do, who would teach her? He needs to stop it! (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch. 12... (view spoiler)[ I really hope I see when you guys started liking Shaffa, because I hate him even more right now! He is terrifying! The casual way he kills people is beyond horrible to me! And now Nassun killed, although not on purpose, the kid from the sea town Shaffa took with him in the first chapter... This makes me so upset! What a cruel world! (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch. 17... (view spoiler)[ As much as I like Essun, I dislike her daughter! And I haven't come to like Schaffa either. I especially dislike how freely he continues killing people, but even worse, when Nassun understood where her mother had learned the braking of the hand thing, she just lashed out and killed everyone in the place, bunch of innocent students like her! Let's once again give her the benefit of the doubt, she is a child, she doesn't know any better... But Schaffa goes ahead and instead of pointing how wrong she was, he praises her for the help!!!! So now, you are creating a person who thinks that in the moment they perceive someone as "wrong", best thing to do is to kill them all, with no conversation or understanding!!!! This has me so angry!!!!!!!!! (hide spoiler)]

I finished and I have no idea how to rate it! On one hand, I still love NKJ's writing and the way she tells a story. On the other, I really disliked some of the characters, or even some of the things all characters chose to do... Back to the good stuff - the world building is still awesome, but then there was this thread of justification of "you don't like me, so I will kill you" thinking on all sides of the conflict, and it was even encouraged, which I really couldn't understand! Whatever happened to "let's talk about all of this" and where is the effort to understand the motivations of the other side? And everyone reacted to any level of diversity with the most extreme reaction possible!

I still want to know what happens, and I am still very invested in the story, and because I believe in this author, I expect much more from her than the random entertainment or popcorn book... It is kind of funny how I can easily give a pass to almost every enjoyable read, but when I hold an author to a higher standard, I tend to be more pedantic...

I love hearing your thoughts, Choko--and totally agree with how horrible everything is...

These books are really tough to swallow--honestly, I don't think I like any of the characters in these books, but I do find them fascinating... I think it helps that I don't have a lot of emotional connection to things in general, so I find it easier to forgive book atrocities... my trigger points are usually logical, rather than emotional. I kind of think of these books as similar to The First Law ones, where everyone is doing horrible things... and it's their flaws and motivations that make it so I can't stop reading...

(view spoiler)[Nassun's childlike view of her parents really sticks in my craw also, and Schaffa's support of her is... it's like... watching a train wreck. Or... I don't know how to explain it--but Schaffa went from being a one-dimensional evil character in the previous book to having one redeeming quality in this one--his care for Nassun. And that one redeeming quality doesn't redeem all of him, but it makes me hope that it might redeem more of him... and we see him fighting and changing his moral code on the go, and he doesn't have it all down, and he's still a horrible person, and Nassun isn't exactly doing much better, but the fact that the grow and change and it makes me uncomfortable to watch... I find all of that fascinating.

But yeah, NOT comfortable. At all. (hide spoiler)]

As for the "let's talk about all of this"--that's a really good point, and I almost feel like that's part of the conversation the author is having with this book... or rather, that this is a world where conversation has mostly stopped working, and we're seeing the consequences of what happens when everything breaks down and people stop talking... (view spoiler)[the Comm where Essun ends up, with the orogenes living side-by-side with regular folk, was a place where people were able to "talk about all of this" and live together...

But then the Season hits, and communication breaks down, as shown with that one person who gets killed--and then the Leader just executes the person who killed him, without more investigation or trial. As shown by the neighboring Comm, which tries to take over--they aren't listening. They've decided to stop listening, and to stop the conversation, and because of that... everyone died. (hide spoiler)]

So... I kind of feel like the author agrees with you, Choko... she's just writing a very uncomfortable story to show it...

And I totally didn't have any of those thoughts until you brought it up... your comments just opened that door in my mind there... I'm seeing the book in a whole new light now even if it's not the same light that you see it...

That makes perfect sense - NKJ trying to make a point about not communicating and the complete disaster that can lead to... Also, I can see her pointing out how in crisis civility is the first casualty. And all this is very valid. But I still want the acknowledgement that this is not OK... Abercrombie has all these horrible characters doing horrible things, but there is the knowledge that none of it is how it should be. I understand very well what a grim dark theme is, and I wouldn't put this one there... It has a dystopic post-apocalyptic slant and does an amazing job with it! She does a great job with the personal, internal character breakdowns. I just wish there was more interpersonal communication and desire for understanding...

You know, the more we are talking about it, the more I think back on the other two series of hers ... In both, she does great when it comes to the personal, internal monologues of the characters. We learn a ton about them, because we are in their heads .. But in all of the series, she tends to go to extremes when it comes to relationships between persons or communities. Interesting... I wonder if this is how she sees the world for real, or if it is a fictional social experiment in her writing only...

I hear you... A lot of NKJ's stories deal with systematic racism and hatred, and some of them are more clear on morals than others... definitely agree on the difference between grimdark and dystopia...

I've only read like 5 pages so far, I'm a bit behind in BRs but hopefully i'll get to it properly next week.

That's the refrain this month. At least folks seem to be enjoying books!

Yeah these books are decidedly not comfortable things to read about... But when I first read them I could not put them down... So much heartbreak.. But this is a world where a group of people have been subjugated and treated as less than human for I don't even know how many generations.. I don't blame them for reaching a breaking point and not trying to convince other people they should deserve to live..
And while this isn't grim-dark per se, its not a very traditional fantasy either.
Perhaps her writing is an outlet of people who have Had Enough..

Still love Jemisin's style here though. These lend very well to oral story telling.. I almost want to slow down the narration :D

fuuuuu I had a whole comment typed out then accidentally clicked on something and the whole thing is gone :(((( Trying to remember what I said...

Through the first Interlude (view spoiler)[ I really like how these first chapters are all narrated... Hoa is the primary narrator speaking to Essun, "you".. We go through Nassun and Schaffa and they're described as being "parts of you" even if Schaffa is no longer... I like how that implies the people that are important to you or helped shape you are a "part of you"

This first Interlude kind of has a ton of information packed into it.. His story begins with a war.. Implying the orogenes are part of the reason why the moon left the Earth and that's why they have been so singled out...
How there are factions presumably within the Stone-eaters and he doesn't want just vengeance but he wants something from Essun...

Loved Lerna calling out Essun though in Chapter 4-- You have the power to do something, so WHY DON'T YOU? Stop throwing yourself a pity party and at least think about the problem.. He has empathy for what happened to Essun's babies, but at the same time this is a season and there isn't time to wallow in grief... (hide spoiler)]

I also love the way she tells a story! I just wish for at least some civility in anyone at all... But no, she is a great talent for sure!

Think about it and do something! A great piece of advice!

Ditto that--great analysis and point-outs...

And then I go and finish lol
I've only reread this one once I think (The first I've read a total of 4 times now? I don't know how I didn't finish my rereads each time...)
I'm starting to remember all the details about the world which is very interesting and unique to me..
Trying to think about what we've learned so far (view spoiler)[ Somehow the people who left all the oldest "deadcivs" caused the moon to go out of orbit which pissed off Father Earth... We think orogenes are involved somehow and the Obelisk Gate was probably used to do this... There are at least 3 factions of StoneEaters.. Those trying to fix the moon (Hoa, it seems belongs here), those trying to crash the moon into Father Earth (Steel with his comments of bringing the moon home and how he wants to kill everyone essentially), and those maintaining status quo (not sure if we know any StoneEaters who specifically fall here)... (hide spoiler)]

Nassun (view spoiler)[I feel so bad for Nassun... I want to be mad at her, but she's still a child and has had shit role models, even her mother.. Kiind of a cycle of abuse thing, Essun didn't know another way to teach her to keep her safe so Nassun only associates her mother with punishment and not love. Can't really blame her for that because Essun hasn't shown traditional affection, even though her teaching Nassun is expressing her love by trying to keep her safe...
Then we have her father who, before he finds out what she is, has shown her fatherly affection.. But has failed her so utterly it makes my blood boil!!! Can't help but see parallels between Orogenes and how LGBT people have been treated in the past and to some extent the present..
And then there's Schaffa who has probably accepted her the most and shown to Nassun's eyes more affection than her mother.. With him as a role-model, how could Nassun learn better from her mistakes? Schaffa hasn't told her she's doing wrong (and Nassun knows she has done "bad things", but she has no guidance! Especially with Steel worming his way in... (hide spoiler)]

And did anyone notice (view spoiler)[ the familiar StoneEater made of Alabaster...
We find out StoneEaters were once people.. How are they made 🤔 (hide spoiler)]

Nirkatze wrote: "Aaand.... finished. Ooops. T"

Re Schaffa (view spoiler)[ It's said a few times he doesn't remember the old him.. Has memory problems with what he's done before and when that happens Father Earth seems to assert more of himself on his Guardians... But Schaffa seems to still be resisting that.. Admitting he's done wrong in the past and trying to work with the Orogenes now.. Is that Father Earth's doing? Does he want what Steel wants? (hide spoiler)]

I can totally see the connection between Orogenes and any marginalized or minority communities in our world... I belong to several of those... But I am very uncomfortable with the logic of "I have been treated wrongly, so I will return the same"... This is what perpetuates the cycle... Stand up for yourself, but go for communication and understanding first and foremost, then get to the violence, if need be. It seems like we as people are getting further and further away from trying to put ourselves in someone else's shoes... And since I see it in our reality, it upsets me in literature more...

Re: Schaffa... (view spoiler)[ It is a vicious cycle... He is the one who "taught" Essun by punishment, Nassun was punished by Essun, trying to teach her to keep her safe, and Nassun now punishes everyone whom she feels threatened by... Exactly the way a very immature child might think... And as you said, none of her role models have shown her any other way...

I would have totally bought Schaffa trying to redeem himself, if he didn't just decide folks were in his way and kill them with no second thought for expediency. The only person he is trying to protect is Nassun, and I am not sure if that is enough... (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "Re: Schaffa... ."

Exactly (view spoiler)[ and I think he has a "use" for Nassun too, so it's not totally a selfless act either (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "I can totally see the connection between Orogenes and any marginalized or minority communities in our world... I belong to several of those... But I am very uncomfortable with the logic of "I have ..."

Oh I get that... But perhaps in literature it can be an outlet for pain/frustration.. I do appreciate seeing non-violent approaches, but sometimes you want to see someone burn it all to the ground 😅

Haha! Yes, Yes you do!!!

I struggled to start The City We Became... still haven't read it... loved this trilogy tho... really makes you think... seems to be a NKJ writing thing...

Oh for sure! I think if you get a bit further in The City We Became you'd like it

re: Schaffa--I have to wonder (view spoiler)[how much of his actions are his own, and how much is Father Earth bending him... he's so messed up, and not just in morals... (hide spoiler)]

re: NKJ--her writing is so diverse... I love her short-story collections, because each one is a small world in itself... there are a lot of similar themes, but also a huge variety of stories, and she isn't an author who feels things have to end happily...

Garth Nix is another author who can create a whole world in a page. But I think these are the only two authors in this category for me.

Schaffa (view spoiler)[ I think it's a mix.. since the other Guardians who have bent to Father Earth act a bit differently than him (hide spoiler)]

I'm starting this one finally this week, but is there a date set for the last one?

I'm still only onto chapter 2! I'm so behind in a load of BRs at the moment. I really hope to catch up soon.

No worries, I've got the same thing ;)

Charlie wrote: "I'm still only onto chapter 2! I'm so behind in a load of BRs at the moment. I really hope to catch up soon."

Just focus on the Urban Fantasy... the important stuff ;)

Alex Verus, Ilona Andrews...

Otherwise, Nirkatze dropped the ball...

I'd expect it to start around now, but actually, the same thing happened with this book, and we waited 2 months I think, so why not schedule #3 for May 15th?

Reminds me of the sporadic BR of The Siege last year:

Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City -- March
How to Rule an Empire and Get Away with It -- May/June?
A Practical Guide to Conquering the World -- August

I'm happy for whenever, since I'm perpetually late!

I'm okay with that :)

Yeah, I will be good with that too...

I'll put in the request

Fine for me too...

LOL Yeah, I kinda forgot about this one. My bad!

Though to be fair, life has been throwing a lot of things in my face lately and making it harder for me to remember what I'm doing or reading or how did this sentence start again? Hold on, I've gotta go blow my nose... is today Tuesday?

Thankfully Iain has all our backs! I sleep easier in this knowledge. May sounds great.

Nirkatze wrote: "Started! Chapter 1--And now we find out what happened to."

I wonder if (view spoiler)[ that lorist knew that Nassun giving her a diamond likely meant she was an Orogene. Surely she did?

I don't understand how the husband could so easily beat his bay boy to death but then turn around and spare the daughter, absolute insanity. Perhaps he was going to take her to the Fulcrum? (hide spoiler)]

re: Chapter 1--Ooh, good point about the diamond... curious now too... as for the children... (view spoiler)[I think maybe the husband killing the baby boy was a instant reaction--discovering that his own son was an orogene broke him and he snapped... shows just how very deeply embedded the racism is, so far down that a man would beat his own child to death in fear and hate...

As for why he didn't kill Nassun... maybe partly because by the time she came on the scene, he'd come back to himself? We never see the inside of his mind, but he has to be in two screaming halves over what he did to his son... after killing one child, perhaps he got caught up with the idea that he could "save" the next?

it makes me think of how parents aren't supposed to have favorites... but I imagine many do... I'm thinking Nassun was his favorite, and maybe he wasn't overly fond of his son yet, seeing has how he was still in the young and annoying phase... yet another reason not to kill Nassun... yet. (hide spoiler)]

I really hope he felt remorse and was devastated by what he did. It's not forgivable, but he at least should hopefully feel the horror of what he did for the rest of his life.

Charlie wrote: "I really hope he felt remorse and was devastated by what he did. It's not forgivable, but he at least should hopefully feel the horror of what he did for the rest of his life."

I'm not sure he can do that though... if he admits he was wrong, he'd have to rewrite his entire life knowledge... and he's already battling that hard enough with Nassun...

Chapter 3 (view spoiler)[ Wow. So much to unpack there. So if I remember from book 1, guardians are the still children of Orogenes?

It seems like they have demons whispering in their heads?

They have the ability to eat Orogene power? And when that power is gone you die?

I have no idea what's happening but it's very cool. (hide spoiler)]