Sci-Fi, fantasy and speculative Indie Authors Review discussion

It will anger atheists and offend Christians.

Nobody believes this part. They think, 'ha-ha-ha, those dumb atheists and Christians. So easily angered and offended. Unlike me.'

A shocking account of a douchebag's afterlife that shows the disturbing and unfair third option.

This part makes it sound like it will amusing. A douchebag sounds much more fun as a character than an angry atheist. And a disturbing and unfair afterlife sounds more fun than a strange one. To read about, I mean.

I wouldn't be surprised if "negative" campaigns work better, but as Anne points out, there's a distinct difference in quality between the two ads. The "negative" one is punchier and more provocative. The "good" one is pretty meh.

For starters, Reli-philosophical SciFi story means...what? I suspect most people will look at that and just move on. "Reli-philosphical" isn't a common phrase so people aren't going to know what to expect--some pseudo-Eastern religious, New Age nonsense?

And angry atheist...no one likes an angry atheist. Except maybe other angry atheists (a pretty small demographic), so you're probably not enticing many people with that line.

So I'm left wondering if you've actually tested "positive" vs "negative" advertising, or have you just shown that better written ads work best?

;D

Another aspect is 'negative' often sells better.

Story 1: Janie was a good girl, who lived a normal life, wherein nothing particularly special happened. One day she died and went to heaven.

Story 2: Janie had problems from day one, when she barely survived being miscarried. A complete waste of space, she killed her brothers cat, as an infant. Pole dancing her way through high school...

Would you want to read Story 1 or 2?

People often say they like stories of good people meeting a good end, but they have more interest in that bad person who has an interesting life.

The reality is both descriptions could be about the exact same book. Tabloids sell copies based on adverts of a star misbehaving rather than a star doing charity work.

Well, yeah. But your two ads are about the same story. To really test the postive vs negative thing you should probably use a common ad, altering each to ad descriptive emotionally charged terms appropriate for each test:

"It will challenge atheists and Christians alike. The amazing account of our hero's afterlife reveals the unexpected and astounding third option!"

"It will anger atheists and offend Christians.A shocking account of a douchebag's afterlife that shows the disturbing and unfair third option."

...Something like that. Point is, the two need to be almost identical except for the emotional tags, otherwise you can't really be sure what the results are testing.

P.S. I used to work in the analysis of customer satisfaction surveys. I know how big an influence the way you phrase a question can have on the results.

I'll give the flip side to this. I actually saw your negative ad pop up yesterday, Rob. To be honest, if it wasn't your book and I didn't know you, I would have passed this up as another pretentious author who thinks themselves too clever for their audience. Granted, I'm neither Christian nor athiest, so I may be the outlier here.

The first ad may not have a whole lot of 'punch,' and I agree that reli-philosophical doesn't resonate with me, however... If you took that out and just had:
"A SciFi story about an angry atheist who finds himself in a strange afterlife. Currently *FREE* on Smashwords."
I would likely check it out.

R.F.G. wrote: "Another aspect is 'negative' often sells better.

Story 1: Janie was a good girl, who lived a normal life, wherein nothing particularly special happened. One day she died and went to heaven..."

Lessee: "Story 1: Janie was a good girl, who lived a normal life, wherein nothing particularly special happened. One day she died and went to heaven.

That's when all the problems started..."

Now that might be something I'd check out.

Owen,

I once thought about writing a book about that 'good girl', who avoided all things unseemly, who at the tender age of 16 died and went to heaven. Once there she found out she had to do penance for never actually having lived a life, and was sentenced to various activities back on Earth; activities she considered ungodly. Seems she'd missed the point about people having to make tough choices where the available options don't always include nice.

I agree with Micah. The second ad reads better, even without the douche bag descriptor. That one word does provide shock value though. As commonly as it is used in conversation, I don't think it is anywhere close to mainstreaming itself into a book description. I think people clicked on the ad just to find out who had the stones to use that word.

You can't buy bad publicity, and it can be the best kind. Notoriety is something that must be earned, it cannot be taken.

Rob: I have to agree that the first "positive" ad just does say much of anything. So the atheist is angry? So the afterlife is "strange"? So what? "Reli-philosphical" sounds both vague and sort of pretentious. You may not mean it that way, but it's the kind of thing people say when they want to sound "scholarly" ("a penetrating ontological analysis of neo-anarcho-ludditarism"). My guess is that lost a lot of people right there.

Now, personally I would never click on the "negative" one either, because I don't bite on "offend" bait. Others might, but this: "disturbing and unfair third option"; actually says something. It raises questions that are more intriguing than a "strange afterlife".

So I agree that in trying to write a "negative" ad, you were motivated to write a more interesting one. Combining Micah's and Christina's perspectives would likely give you an even more effective ad.

Owen wrote: Now, personally I would never click on the "negative" one either, because I don't bite on "offend" bait.

Keep in mind that as writers and authors, we see the strings being pulled so we can't enjoy the puppet show the same way as readers.

What we see and what the reader sees are often two different things.

Charles wrote: "Keep in mind that as writers and authors, we see the strings being pulled so we can't enjoy the puppet show the same way as readers.

What we see and what the reader sees are often two different things. "

My Wife tends to dislike when I see where a movie is going long before she does, though I normally don't like to spoil twists unless she asks.

Sometimes it takes a while to find the perfect blend for a blurb.

R.F.G. wrote: "Owen, I once thought about writing a book about that 'good girl', who avoided all things unseemly, who at the tender age of 16 died and went to heaven. Once there she found out she had to do penan..."

That makes me wonder why you didn't? Though I will say that I think 16 is a rather tender age for that sort of judgement. Bump it up to where she at least had a chance, maybe?

Charles wrote: "Keep in mind that as writers and authors, we see the strings being pulled so ..."

That may be true to an extent. My point was more that "offend" bait is something that is transparently "bait", and that will drive away some proportion of people , regardless of their perspective (readers, authors, whatever).

The thing about "bait" is that it almost always catches something (which is why there is so much of it), but does that "something" actually benefit you?

Owen wrote: "Charles wrote: "Keep in mind that as writers and authors, we see the strings being pulled so ..."

That may be true to an extent. My point was more that "offend" bait is something that is transpare..."

At this point, for me at least, every reader is a victory. :)

But I'm not disagreeing with you. I see click bait like that as a loud salesman that's too friendly. But if it works, it works.

We may not be in the target audience anyway. ;)

Owen wrote: "That makes me wonder why you didn't? Though I will say that I think 16 is a rather tender age for that sort of judgement. Bump it up to where she at least had a chance, maybe? "

To be honest, in a manner of speaking I had other characters' voices clamoring louder for attention.

As I remember form my original idea, that girl never did anything that might have had the slightest chance of being bad.

The girl she would never speak to, much less associate with at school, died at the same age in the same accident. The bad girl drank, fornicated promiscuously, used foul language, and shoplifted; pretty much the antithesis of the good one. Her penance was to walk in the good girl's shoes.

Call it a learning experience for two similar but different lost souls.

For now, I've got a ticked-off intelligent egg-laying 'mammalian' species waiting for their story to be released -- they've already destroyed LA and a few other large bomb-magnets, erm, high-population centers.

R.F.G. wrote: "To be honest, in a manner of speaking I had other characters' voices clamoring louder for attention..."

Well, it's there when you want it. I suppose one might think of it as "job security".

Some of our readers are asking for a spin-off series involving "semi-major" character in our books. And they right: she really does deserve one. Ans she'll get one ... eventually. (Which might substantially outsell our current series, so eventually might be sooner rather than later.)

Owen wrote: "Well, it's there when you want it. I suppose one might think of it as "job security".

Some of our readers are asking for a spin-off series involving "semi-major" character in our books. And they right: she really does deserve one. Ans she'll get one ... eventually. (Which might substantially outsell our current series, so eventually might be sooner rather than later.) "

I already did the zeroth or prequel to my first series due to prompting for answers from a reader. I need to clean that one up as I wrote it in two weeks while Wife was on maternity leave, almost a year and a half ago.

As for good girl / bad girl penance, I have a couple dozen projects in various stages to work on and finish, while teaching my tiny demon -- job security I don't lack.

Then again I could try along the lines of: "Do not read this book, as it has been corrupted by the influence of a 17 month-old tiny demon -- she will make you her minion."

R.F.G. wrote: "Then again I could try along the lines of: "Do not read this book, as it has been corrupted by the influence of a 17 month-old tiny demon -- she will make you her minion."

Might be worth a shot. ;-)

Hi, everyone. I'm new here. I read your comments with interest. I find writing a punchy advert that will attract readers much harder than writing the book itself!
I have 2 fantasy novels in print, parts 1 and 2, and wish I could write something as good as the second, negative ad. I agree that it is the writing that is attractive not the negativity.

V.M. wrote: "Hi, everyone. I'm new here. I read your comments with interest. I find writing a punchy advert that will attract readers much harder than writing the book itself!"

Hello V.M. So do I. I think that is a very common condition with authors. Welcome aboard. :-)

And I think there are a lot of mad men who feel the exact opposite. Be proud of your work! :)

Advertising blurbs can be fun

R.F.G. wrote: "Advertising blurbs can be fun"

Will you write ours? (If we ever decide to run ads?) ; )

As an aside, has anyone else noticed how many mistakes there are in the ads here on GR?

Hi, W. I am proud of my work, it's just getting others to read it! :-)

Why have I just become Vivienne when I was V.M. Before? Weird!

Owen,

Below the line is the blurb I wrote for the novel I'm doing final edits on. I had the blurb ready back when Her Grace was still in the mother-ship.

The blurb may not give a blow-by-blow, but it does give an idea of the story. If this blurb would entice you to read the book, we can talk.

As for mistakes in ads, many people don't seem to realize that nailing the blurb is more important than nailing every last word in the book it represents.
*************************************************

Animals, Monsters, or People?

The ‘simple’ line between our reality when awake and our nightmares when asleep can be very thin. In our fiction we are the innocent victims of monsters intent upon taking everything from us, including our lives. In a world where corporations and governments work together to find ‘new frontiers’ to strip for a profit, who decides if a creature from another world is an animal, a monster, or a person? What happens when ‘we’ are the monsters another species has very good reason to fear?

It is so simply worded (generalizations?) I don't get what the story is actually about.
Is the story about what goes on in the twilight zone of "The ‘simple’ line between our reality when awake and our nightmares when asleep can be very thin" or is it about "What happens when ‘we’ are the monsters another species has very good reason to fear?" Sounds like in one case monsters are chasing us, in the other we are the monsters chasing something else.
After reading it 10 times, it seems like alien corporations and governments are ruling that humans are monsters?

Robert wrote: "It is so simply worded (generalizations?) I don't get what the story is actually about.
Is the story about what goes on in the twilight zone of "The ‘simple’ line between our reality when awake and..."

Perhaps this would work better? "Do not read this book, as it has been corrupted by the influence of a 17 month-old tiny demon -- she will make you her minion."

Owen wrote: "As an aside, has anyone else noticed how many mistakes there are in the ads here on GR?"

Honestly, no. Because I never actually even look at them, let alone click on them.

It's like my mind has AdBlock built into it.

I actually do have an ad block, so I never see them.

I don't have ad block, but twenty years of web browsing has conditioned me to assume that clicking on anything vaguely ad-like will brick my machine, steal my identity, and crown me the latest in a long line of Nigerian royalty. Sadly for Rob and others who have paid for advertising, I know I'm not alone in this conditioning.

Just wondering, what would be the benefit of being Nigerian royalty?

Christina wrote: "I don't have ad block, but twenty years of web browsing has conditioned me to assume that clicking on anything vaguely ad-like will brick my machine, steal my identity, and crown me the latest in a..."

Too bad ad-block is needed at all, but websites like this one seem unable to practice any self restraint. When I turn the ad block off, it's hard to see the books or much of anything else for all the ads.

R.F.G. wrote: "Just wondering, what would be the benefit of being Nigerian royalty?"

You get to pay someone you don't know lots of money, and then you never hear from them again.

Ken wrote: "You get to pay someone you don't know lots of money, and then you never hear from them again."

Sounds kind of like the politicals who keep asking me for large chunks of money so they can save the world.

Back in my wayward youth, I would write back to the supposed princes and mess with them. Later I learned that the mobsters behind the schemes would use poor people they either indentured or outright kidnapped to handle the emails and I felt awful. I never did anything to hurt or humiliate them (as apparently many sick individuals have), but I did have one guy who went to great lengths to prove he was not a frog.

Micah wrote: "Honestly, no. Because I never actually even look at them, let alone click on them..."

These things tend to catch my eye -- not ads in general, but goofy mistakes in them. Not too long ago, GR paired two ads. One was for a novel and they spelled "havoc" as "hovac". The ad paired with it for a guide to improve your grammar, punctuation, etc, to make your book appear more "professional." The juxtaposition was amusing, but even more amusing was the fact that the second ad also had an egregious typo in it. I'll have to admit that sort of made my day.

R.F.G. wrote: "Ken wrote: "You get to pay someone you don't know lots of money, and then you never hear from them again."

Sounds kind of like the politicals who keep asking me for large chunks of money so they c..."

The trouble with politicians is that you ALWAYS hear from them again.

Owen wrote: "Micah wrote: "Honestly, no. Because I never actually even look at them, let alone click on them..."

These things tend to catch my eye -- not ads in general, but goofy mistakes in them. Not too lon..."

This one was odd enough for me to call to their attention and as you can see, the response was more than a little irksome.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mcmullenwr...
Note that they never addressed the real issue, choosing to believe that I was offended by the mature content rather than the pairing istself.

Christina wrote: "This one was odd enough for me to call to their attention and as you can see, the response was more than a little irksome.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mcmullenwr...
Note that they never addressed the real issue, choosing to believe that I was offended by the mature content rather than the pairing istself. "

Yeah, I can see how pairing a Christian allegory for kids with the M-on-M thing would be a not-so-good pairing. Someone should have been called on the carpet over that one.

Some days ya has to wonder.

Christina wrote: "This one was odd enough for me to call to their attention and as you can see, the response was more than a little irksome."

I saw that one! Laughed for 5 minutes! (In fact, I had to take a screen shot and email it to my friends.) I've seen other examples just like it, enough to wonder if it was truly random.

I'm curious if some "context-based" marketing algorithm did that or what? Is this an example of "AI" in action? ;-)

I downloaded a book about using the ipad and the first 12pages were advertising erotica. This is also a strange place to put it. I complained that it could have been downloaded by children with a new iPad but was tols by iBooks that they have no control over ads in the books.

Vivienne wrote: "I downloaded a book about using the ipad and the first 12pages were advertising erotica. This is also a strange place to put it. I complained that it could have been downloaded by children with a n..."

Huh? Apple -- who is famous for the way they enforce their T&Cs, who is well known for the extreme degree of control they exert over their devices and how they are used -- can't tell that someone is putting ads for porn in their products?

Right...

Owen wrote: "Vivienne wrote: "I downloaded a book about using the ipad and the first 12pages were advertising erotica. This is also a strange place to put it. I complained that it could have been downloaded by ..."

That's what they said, Owen. They did give mme an iTunes voucher for 3 itunes though, so it's noyall bad.:-)

Vivienne wrote: "I downloaded a book about using the ipad and the first 12pages were advertising erotica. This is also a strange place to put it. I complained that it could have been downloaded by children with a n..."

Wow, I had to do a Plain Brown Wrapper version of an old-school Sci-Fi book cover due to a shadowy female nipple (on a female android), but they can't control ads in books?

Right

R.F.G. wrote: "Wow, I had to do a Plain Brown Wrapper version of an old-school Sci-Fi book cover due to a shadowy female nipple (on a female android)..."

Yeah, well the fact it was an android probably made all the difference. ;-)

Was this on Apple (iBooks) or Amazon? (Although I have seen some slightly racy sci-fi/fantasy covers on Amazon.)

Wait...
Am I the only person here shuddering at the words 'ads in books'? Has it come to that already?

Christina wrote: "Wait...
Am I the only person here shuddering at the words 'ads in books'? Has it come to that already?"

You are not. And it appears it has. (I have not encountered it personally yet. Maybe it's just an iBooks thing so far?)

Christina wrote: "Wait...
Am I the only person here shuddering at the words 'ads in books'? Has it come to that already?"

I see it as a natural part of the evolution of self-publishing.

That being said, I would never read or publish a book with advertisements in it.

Christina wrote: "Wait...
Am I the only person here shuddering at the words 'ads in books'? Has it come to that already?"

Ads have been in books for a while, and I still shudder.

Owen writ: "Yeah, well the fact it was an android probably made all the difference. ;-)

Was this on Apple (iBooks) or Amazon? (Although I have seen some slightly racy sci-fi/fantasy covers on Amazon.)"

It was Apple, Kobo, and apparently B&N Nook that had a problem, though the print version (full Sci-Fi raciness) wasn't an issue for B&N print.

It's easier to censor the cover than tell customers to set the parental controls before handing the device to a ten to seventeen-year-old.

http://www.amazon.com/Regeneration-Ca...

I'm still waiting for the updated less expensive typography on the print to hit B&N and Amazon, among others.