The Sword and Laser discussion

Trigger Warning: this book includes depictions of rape.

I finished the first book and found the handling of the entire topic around rape to be very problematic. Specifically, the reactions of the different characters including the two protagonists.

Let's start with Admiral Vorutyer. He is a sadist. Everybody knows he is a sadist but he is tolerated because of his political connections. Okay, I get that it is important for the author to show how he is cruel and evil and why he and the other leaders need to die.

The two soldiers who bring Cordelia to Vorutyer know what he is going to do. One is sympathetic to her, one is not. After Vorkosigan takes over, the sympathetic one is promoted to be in charge of the prisoners while the other one is taken off duty - I guess the message is that being sympathetic absolves you of guilt?

The surgeon knows what Vorutyer does because he patches the women up after. He tries to hide Vorutyer's crimes by wiping the memory of his victims - which should be a crime by itself. He does nothing to stop it. He is meted no consequences by anybody and gets an exciting new technology - artificial wombs - to experiment with. He should not be put in charge of anything.

Vorkosigan knows what Vorutyer does, has known for years. After Elena he says if Vorutyer did it one more time he was going to kill him regardless of the Emperor's script. Wait, what? So how many women had to be tortured and raped for Vorkosigan to get pushed past his tipping point? And even after the worst one he doesn't act, he's just like, "Well, Elena makes 20 women now. When he rapes the 21st that will just be a bridge too far." I didn't know we had to keep score.

The guards in the POW camp? Only the worst ones are replaced. So being kind-of-rapey is okay?

And before anybody says, well, it's a brutal, patriarchal society, I have to point out that Cordelia is fine with all of this. She's also fine with Bothari - who did a lot of raping on his own. Bothari deserves sympathy but he also deserves proper treatment. His clinging to the perverse memory of what he did to Elena - including continuing to rape her in his cabin after he took her out of Vorutyer's clutches - does not absolve him of anything. I don't know why the author included those details if she was then going to just sweep it under the carpet. Bothari does not deserve to be given a baby to take care of in his mental state. That isn't going to magically make him better and is a huge risk for the child. But Cordelia isn't creeped out by any of this and is happy for him. Look! Baby! PTSD rapist soldier will be okay now!

It's all just very, very problematic and spoils the book for me. Anybody else in a similar starship (boat)?

I read the Warriors Apprentice first so spoilers for that book that give more insight into Bothari.

(view spoiler)[
There are two Elenas. Elena Visconti and Elena Bothari. There are major consequences for Bothari when Elena Visconti recognizes Bothari as her rapist and kills him. The baby is Elena Bothari and Cordella’s son covers up the murder and says Bothari shot himself. Elena Visconti then doesn’t want anything to do with Elena Bothari although the eventually reconcile. Bothari doesn’t really raise the baby Elena. A nanny raises her in most of the timeline.

In Barrayer, the Elena Bothari is decanted just in time for Cordella’s son to go into the uterine replicator after the bio weapon injures Cordella’s unborn child. I think Bujold had written about the uterine replicator and then had to explain how they got into the story as Cordella’s Honor is a bit of a prequel.
(hide spoiler)]

I seem to remember this issue being the reason that I didn't give the book full marks. Although, like Ben mentioned (above) these events do have big consequences on the larger series.

I am interested to reread the book, now, and see if my opinion changes. It is a feature (not a bug) of the series that the Barrayaran society has major flaws which then need to be corrected by future generations. Things don't change overnight and people don't always act immediately (which I find very realistic).

J wrote: "It is a feature (not a bug) of the series that the Barrayaran society has major flaws which then need to be corrected by future generations."

Yes, which is why I’m glad I waited to read these books all at once. Reading them as they were published must have been annoying, because even though each individual entry has a beginning, middle and end, some over-arching and secondary plot threads didn’t get resolved for 20-25 years.

Oaken wrote: "Trigger Warning: this book includes depictions of rape.

I finished the first book and found the handling of the entire topic around rape to be very problematic. Specifically, the reactions of the ..."

Your visceral reaction to the book reminds me of the reaction to the Tiptree read. An act within a book places the rest of the book beyond redemption and no explanation or reason for having that act can redeem it.

The reasons I found the portrayal tolerable is the context and characterisation of the two leads and Aral Vorkosiagan's rise to become the leader of Barrayar. Shards is replete with evil acts of various types. It is book places honourable people in a setting where there are no honourable actions, just least bad actions. The quote that sums this up is:

The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present — they are real.

Aral cannot act against the rapes and mistreatment of the prisoners until his larger task has been completed. If he does not complete his mission then the suffering caused by Vorutyer and his ilk will continue and many more will suffer. Once he has control of the fleet he takes immediate action to end all mistreatment of prisoners. He acts appropriately within his allowed range of actions.

Beta colony acts as a counterpoint to the conservative and feudal Barrayar. On Beta there are no real restrictions on sexual mores so Cordelia's reactions to rape are not those of a Barrayaran (which would amount to property theft) or our society. Beta would treat these as evidence of a diseased mind and force a therapeutic intervention which would change the personality of the perpetrator. This may have been Cordelia's fate if she had not fled.

Bothari is an interesting case. It is clear from the early part of the book he is a deeply damaged individual who has attached himself to Vorkosigan for "moral" guidance. Bothari cannot navigate these decisions and knows it. Vorutyer uses him as a weapon effectively torturing Bothari along with his other victims. The guardsmen who bring prisoners to Vorutyars cabin have more volition than Bothari.

Finally, I can accept the portrayal of rape in these books because of the ongoing repercussions of the actions and the way they effect the perpetrators.


As Trike commented these events can only be put into context by the whole saga. The different layers of responsibility for Komarr, Cetaganda, Jacksons Hole is very complex and difficult to disentangle from a single book.

All that said it doesn't matter how well justified a piece of writing is if it crosses your line. There are too many books to ever read so leave this book behind and find something else.

It just doesn't add up for me. I get that Vorkosigan has been put in a position where he needs to sacrifice his honor for the greater good of the empire, hence thousands of people being killed on both sides for a war that is really about Barrayar housecleaning before the Emperor dies. In that context, turning a blind eye to Vorutyer's conduct is part of that burden. Frankly, if they left it there it would have been more palatable to me; not that it was good but it fits the arc and the burden he has to carry.

Except, of course, Vorkosigan asserts that whole "if he rapes one more woman I'll throw the script away and kill him" thing. Its like the author is trying to make Vorkosigan's inaction more palatable by saying he would act but it fails for me because, like, how much rape is too much rape? It rings very false and I can't reconcile it or Cordelia's acceptance. And that he let Bothari do what he continued to do to Elena, knowing it was probably going on? Yikes.

Oaken wrote: "It just doesn't add up for me. I get that Vorkosigan has been put in a position where he needs to sacrifice his honor for the greater good of the empire, hence thousands of people being killed on b..."

I get that. I don’t recall the bit you’ve referenced, but it definitely is problematic. The ‘80s were messed up, right? We didn’t even think about this sort of thing.

That doesn’t explain why I didn’t flinch about it in 2019, though. Maybe because it was the 8th book I listened to in the series and was a prequel, so I already knew aspects were being resolved.

Thanks oaken. I had this book on hold at my library, but now that I know about this, I think I’ll skip this month after all. I accidentally read a book last week that had a really problematic depiction of rape and I guess my quota, or whatever for that has been exceeded for now.

I'm about 2/3 of the way through Shards. The book has a weird tone to it, like it's a historical novel? Sometimes I get confused by the turns of phrase. The instant love story doesn't make sense to me. I guess this is based on her literary influences (Jane Austen?). I wonder how Barrayar, which came out much later, will differ. This reminds of the Elric stories, which came out at very different times.

I'm done now. Ah, Bothari and the baby machines, that was a weird part of the book.

Oaken wrote: "Trigger Warning: this book includes depictions of rape.

I finished the first book and found the handling of the entire topic around rape to be very problematic. Specifically, the reactions of the ..."

All of this and more. I remember reading these books and enjoying them about 10 years ago but I suspected I would find they had not aged way well for me they really haven't. From the treatment of disability, particularly mental illness, implications that those who have abortions don't care about life and the treatment of Vorkosigan's bisexuality I find myself continually brought up short.

It is pretty clear to me that the book wants you to think about your assumptions.

The different worlds in her Universe have radically different attitudes to sexuality, mental illness, and a range of other social touch points.

IN the eighties homosexuality was beyond the pale. Now we have homosexual marriage. Give it a year and electoral politics and the US may ban contraceptives. Things change and change with frightening rapidity.

For me it is clear that the books are supposed to make you think and confront your values. This becomes very clear if you keep reading the series.

Iain wrote: "It is pretty clear to me that the book wants you to think about your assumptions.

The different worlds in her Universe have radically different attitudes to sexuality, mental illness, and a range..."

I’ve just read the scene with the delivery of (view spoiler)[ uterine replicators containing rape babies (hide spoiler)] and I really enjoyed how the scene forced both Vorkosigan to confront the reality of the Barrayan men’s actions and the reader to confront their preconceptions. The subject matter of this book is sometimes challenging but (at least so far) the way it’s presented doesn’t seem exploitative or voyeuristic.

Perhaps I'm reading into this something that isn't there, but I find myself thinking of the Barrayarans as Russians (read: USSR era Russians). Growing up in the 80s, I was given the impression that the whole country was decades behind us in technological, cultural, and every other kind of development.

What I like about the combined books is how Cordelia brings out the virtuous qualities in the people around her. It doesn't come across as a Pollyanna, everything is going to be okay kind of way, though sometimes her character feels stereotypical from past decades.

I would like to see someone who will stand up and be able to intellectually banter with prejudiced people and put them in their place while still appearing to be polite and respectful. At the same time, I want someone who isn't going to be so impressed with position and wealth and power that they won't come out and call someone out when they are directly hurting others.

In the end, this book gets me to thinking about cultural arguments today and to think about how I can best go about navigating them. For one, I would like to be more understanding of those who have been abused by those in power and strong enough to stand up to the abusers to end the hurt they intentionally seek to inflict on others.