2025 Reading Challenge discussion

This is where we will discuss the book after we start reading it in May.

Please remember to mark spoilers by using spoiler tags: [spoiler]...[/spoiler], but replace [ by < and ] by >

This is my first time reading the book. I started it a few days ago and I can already tell why it’s become a classic.

I’m listening to the audiobook, halfway through progress report 12 (40% or 3h38m in): (view spoiler)[

Initially when I picked this book up I didn’t expect to like it based on how sad the premise seems. While I still think it’s incredibly sad, I also appreciate the genuine thoughts and feelings Charlie has while undergoing these huge changes. Learning that people have been taking advantage of him, making fun of him, and generally being assholes is awful. Makes me wonder if he could have known that ahead of time if he’d still make the same decision. I’m not sure if this was intentional but it has huge ties to Plato’s cave allegory which I love.

The whole Alice storyline I can’t say I’m a fan of.. I agree with her that Charlie needs to develop more before making a commitment to a romantic relationship but she keeps stringing him along because she doesn’t know how to let him down gently and it’s very frustrating and sad. Charlie’s attitude about it is also annoying because she doesn’t owe him a relationship and he seems to somewhat think that she does? It’s giving “nice guy” in a very bad way.

We seem to have strayed away from Algernon for now which is sort of sad. I thought there would be more emphasis on him since he is in the title after all. I assume he’ll come back into the forefront before long though. (hide spoiler)]

I found some questions on ThoughtCo so I’ll post them here for us to think about and answer! I’ve marked a few with spoiler tags so don’t look at those until you’ve finished the book unless you don’t mind spoilers!

-What is important about the title? Is there a reference in the novel that explains the title?

-What statement does the novel make, directly or indirectly, about the treatment of the mentally challenged?

-Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?

-What passages could have been grounds for banning Flowers for Algernon (as it was several times)?

(view spoiler)[-Flowers for Algernon is what's known as an epistolary novel, told in letters and correspondence. Is this an effective technique for showing Charlie's rise and decline? Why or why not? To whom do you think the letters and notes Charlie writes are written? (hide spoiler)]

-Is Charlie consistent in his actions? What is unique about his situation?

-Consider the location and time period of the novel. Would changing one or both have changed the story significantly?

-How are women portrayed in Flowers for Algernon? What would have been different about the story if Charlie had been a woman who underwent such a controversial surgery?

-Are the doctors who operate on Charlie acting in his best interests? Do you think Charlie would have gone through with the operation if he knew what the ultimate outcome would be?

(view spoiler)[-Several publishers rejected Flowers for Algernon, demanding Keyes rewrite it with a happier ending, with at least one suggesting Charlie should marry Alice Killian. Do you think that would have been a satisfying conclusion to the story? How would it have affected the integrity of the story's central theme? (hide spoiler)]

-What is the central message of the novel? Is there more than one moral to the story of Charlie's treatment?

-What does the novel suggest about the connection between intelligence and happiness?

-What genre do you think this novel belongs to: ​Science fiction or horror? Explain your answer.

I started listening to the audiobook few days ago and I am almost halfway done. The one thing that sticks out is how his IQ is increasing faster than his emotional intelligence. It seems that being intelligent can cut both ways for a human. For a rat, it’s all good because solving mazes equals food. How do you measure / account for all the other aspects of being human on a rat level? I guess I will find out how they compare Charlie to Algernon in their scientific research soon.

I've started listening to this on audiobook.
Most of my reading in the past several years has been related to my work in church and studies in seminary; so much of my response to non-church related reading is colored by reflections on theology and ministry. I offer this as an explanation of why my comments may follow any theme that relates to faith or religion, please do not take this to mean I think it is a particularly religious book.
(view spoiler)[The mentions of original sin and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" are carrying strongly into Charlie's developing understanding of how poorly others have been treating him. It sits uneasily with me that Charlie is presented as being totally oblivious to others mocking and teasing him, until he begins to become "smart." There is a stereotype that social awareness and emotional intelligence are connected to cognitive intelligence. This stereotype is not completely unfounded, but disabilities that result in such broad delays almost always include severely reduced behavioral regulation. Charlie is instead presented as having quite well developed capacity for self-regulation, and a strong sense of personal responsibility and relationship as well. I find it hard to accept that he was completely unaware of what was happening. (hide spoiler)]

I just started reading it. Thinking about the question 'what is important about the title?" and researching the name Algernon. It is a character in a novel by Thackeray who wrote satirical pieces about society's morals. Perhaps this book will be a satire on the treatment of the mentally challenged (I don't know yet)??

I just started it as well! For the audiobook listeners: the written text is full of spelling mistakes and sometimes it takes me (as a non native English speaker) a second to figure out which word he means (e.g. spearaments in stead of experiments) Does that come across in the audiobook?

Ilona, as far as I remember the syntax/grammatical. etc. mistakes do not come across in the audiobook (narrated by Jeff Woodman) since it's written and read phonetically.

I would not recommend the audiobook to readers reading this for the first time for that exact reason. Personally, I think it takes away from experiencing Charlie's progress.

Ilona, I agree with Lisa. There early and late mistakes are in pronunciation in the audio book (the narrator says "speraments," for example), but the print/digital version is the way to go if this is a first reading for anyone.

Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?

This ran through my head the whole time I was reading. I'm so curious what a modern-day review of this book would be from the perspective of the disability community.

There are many words used in the book that are no longer appropriate: dummy, the R word, etc. I cringed when I read them, and I had to remind myself this was written in a time when those words were more or less accepted.

Thanks for answering my question, Lisa and Beth!

I think this novel is more horror than sci-fi. He didn’t ask for intelligence, he asked for friends and the ability to read and write. He got more than he bargained for.

I have almost finished the audiobook, so I figured I'd answer some of bailey's questions.

Q:What is important about the title? Is there a reference in the novel that explains the title?
A:(view spoiler)[I just got past the part where Algernon dies, where Charlie leaves flowers on the mouses grave. It was a very poignant image of the man mourning the mouse as an icon of his future. (hide spoiler)]

Q:What statement does the novel make, directly or indirectly, about the treatment of the mentally challenged?
(view spoiler)[There is a repeated affirmation of Charlies (pre-surgery) humanity, and the value he places on the humanity of the patients at the Warren State Home. This reads to me as a direct condemnation of any perspective that diminishes or denies the humanity of vulnerable people. In my experience this does show up in the treatment of those with cognitive disabilities, as well as those with physical, and emotional disabilities and those in financial crisis. (hide spoiler)]

Q:Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?
A: Yes, but the deeper message continues to be pertinent. Perhaps a new work for modern sensibilities would be beneficial, but the same issues of humanity and respect for others persists.

Q: What passages could have been grounds for banning Flowers for Algernon (as it was several times)?
A: (view spoiler)[The sex scenes, while not graphic, are intense. This probably led to many parents being uncomfortable with this being included in school libraries or curriculum. (hide spoiler)]

Q:(view spoiler)[Flowers for Algernon is what's known as an epistolary novel, told in letters and correspondence. Is this an effective technique for showing Charlie's rise and decline? Why or why not? To whom do you think the letters and notes Charlie writes are written?
A: While I know the writing is markedly different in the print copy, in ways that don't come across in the audiobook, the reader, Jeff Woodman, does a fantastic job of modulating his voice to communicate Charlie's mental state. I can't credit the author in this, but Jeff's voice acting is quite good. (hide spoiler)]

Q:Consider the location and time period of the novel. Would changing one or both have changed the story significantly?
A: (view spoiler)[ If the book had been set in a different time it would have been difficult to accept.
Any earlier and Charlie would have likely already undergone radical treatment that would have left him permanently and irrevocably injured. There was some indication of this in the narrative around Dr. Guarino that Charlie remembers while traveling to Chicago.
Any later and there would be questions raised about how the lab was able to get this experimental surgery past an ethics board, even in its current context this raises questions. (hide spoiler)]

Q:How are women portrayed in Flowers for Algernon? What would have been different about the story if Charlie had been a woman who underwent such a controversial surgery?
A: Really I want to leave this for women to answer, and I look forward to reading answers to this question. For myself it was almost boring how lazily the women were written, and it feels boring for me to say that a novel written by a man in the 50s fails to have female characters with depth. If someone else were to write this book in the current century, I think there would be a lot more about the treatment of women in medical research now and historically.

Q:Are the doctors who operate on Charlie acting in his best interests? Do you think Charlie would have gone through with the operation if he knew what the ultimate outcome would be?
A: (view spoiler)[ The conference in Chicago answers this pretty well for me. Professor Nemur and Dr. Strauss are clearly in it more for the science and glory than any real benefit to Charlie. Even Burt is, to some degree, more engaged with the research and experiment, though he does seem to have some real concern for Charlie's well-being, even from the beginning. (hide spoiler)]

Q:(view spoiler)[Several publishers rejected Flowers for Algernon, demanding Keyes rewrite it with a happier ending, with at least one suggesting Charlie should marry Alice Killian. Do you think that would have been a satisfying conclusion to the story? How would it have affected the integrity of the story's central theme?
A: I haven't finished the book yet, but at the point I'm at I know there can be no happy ending, I don't think there could be a happy ending that didn't destroy the message and impact of the story. (hide spoiler)]

Q:What is the central message of the novel? Is there more than one moral to the story of Charlie's treatment?
A:I'll give this question a go when I have finished...

Q:What does the novel suggest about the connection between intelligence and happiness?
A: (view spoiler)[ The strong implication is that being more aware makes one more likely to be unhappy or depressed. There is subtle indication this may be more about becoming suddenly more aware of the brokenness and suffering around us, but this is probably something I am reading into it more than something the author intended. (hide spoiler)]

Q:What genre do you think this novel belongs to: ​Science fiction or horror? Explain your answer.
A: (view spoiler)[ I don't think it needs to be Sci-Fi or Horror, Literary Fiction would be fine.
Even at the time it was written experimental surgery was not uncommon and the expectation that something like this would be possible was not considered fantastical. Today the most unbelievable part would be that a research group could get such an experimental surgery approved without significantly more oversight and ethical clearance.
I also don't think it is particularly Horror worthy, because there is no sense for the reader that this is something that could or could have ever potentially happen to them, which has always been a key requirement for me. (hide spoiler)]

I have reached the part where Charlie is beginning to get angry at those who made fun of him in his childhood and at his doctors. The book is reminding me of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein: The 1818 TextFrankenstein.

Terri wrote: "I have reached the part where Charlie is beginning to get angry at those who made fun of him in his childhood and at his doctors. The book is reminding me of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein."

Ooh, that's an interesting comparison! It makes complete sense to me.

Terri wrote: "I have reached the part where Charlie is beginning to get angry at those who made fun of him in his childhood and at his doctors. The book is reminding me of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein."

I agree with that assessment. The bakery workers are ticking me off. I'm a little more than halfway through and the researchers are also increasingly getting annoying.

But the single worst person in his life is his mom.

Denise wrote: "Terri wrote: "I have reached the part where Charlie is beginning to get angry at those who made fun of him in his childhood and at his doctors. The book is reminding me of Mary Shelley's Frankenste..."

Yes! This is so accurate. His mom frustrated me so much throughout the book.

Q:Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?

I am about 1/3 of the way into the book but it is hard to suspend belief that an "operation" (really no details on what was done to improve Charlie's intelligence) could cure Charlie of Down's syndrome (if that is the cause of his intellectual disability) which is a chromosomal abnormality. Also, Down's syndrome effects major organs in the body and also the appearance of the body.

Regarding the terminology 'mental retardation' being outdated, I was interested to learn that the term mental retardation was a medical term to replace earlier terms such as 'imbecile' that were considered pejorative because they fell into the common vernacular. Now, 'intellectual disability' is the accepted term replacing 'mental retardation', which is still in use in the medical community.

Q: Which genre do you think this novel belongs to: ​Science fiction or horror? Explain.
Fantasy. Science is too sophisticated now to suspend disbelief that a doctor could perform an operation to fix Charlie's IQ which is the result of genetic abnormality (I am assuming because there are no details in the book. He didn't have a brain injury and it appears that he was born with the disability.) So far, the story doesn't strike me as the horror genre either.

Terri wrote: "...Q: Which genre do you think this novel belongs to: ​Science fiction or horror? Explain.
Fantasy. Science is too sophisticated now to suspend disbelief that a doctor could perform an operation to fix Charlie's IQ which is the result of genetic abnormality..."

You have touched on a debate that has played out for many, many years within Science-Fiction fandom. At what point does a book which appears on its surface to be "Science" Fiction become instead "Fantasy?" In other words, is there a plausibility requirement for a book to be labeled Science-Fiction? This raises some larger questions, such as Who decides if the plausibility requirement has been met? and What happens when science renders prior scientific theories impossible or even just improbable? Is the book then reclassified from Science-Fiction to Fantasy? Maybe most important, how does one classify Space Operas such as Star Wars or Buck Rodgers? Most people recognize those franchises as Science-Fiction, yet they contain absolutely nothing that is remotely scientifically plausible.

On the other hand, Fantasy as a genre has come to be associated with mythical folk such as Elves and Dwarves and Magicians (and Rings?). While there are certainly many varieties of Fantasy, most of them involve living in a different world than ours where science is not advanced and various fantastic elements are crucial to the plot. There are "Urban" fantasies which often reimagine Earth as a place where magic and/or fantastic creatures exist but are usually hidden from the general population.

And in the 1970s there were many "Science Fantasy" books, although you don't see many these days. Most of the time, the stories had typical fantasy trappings but were said to have been discovered through space exploration. Good examples of Science Fantasy would be Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny or the Dragonriders of Pern series by Anne McCaffrey.

Another similar wrinkle is "Magical Realism" in which seemingly magical or supernatural happenings occur in a world which otherwise appears to be ours. I wouldn't say Flowers for Algernon falls into this category, but I mention it for sake of completeness.

While I respect your opinion and your reasoning, Terri, I think I will disagree with your conclusion. To me, Flowers for Algernon is Science Fiction in the same vein as Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton. Both books are implausible in many ways, yet both suggest a way that scientific advances could lead to unforeseen outcomes. Although the technology for a medical procedure to "cure" Downs Syndrome might not exist today, who is to say what the future might hold? It reminds me of a fascinating news article I saw just today about a man who, through radical lifestyle changes (with a few medicines and supplements), was able to eliminate many signs of Alzheimer's Disease in his own brain in a matter of weeks:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/18/health...

No one is saying that Alzheimer's and Down Syndrome are the same; they definitely are not. But results like this can make people question what is and isn't possible to change about our own bodies. Stories like Flowers for Algernon encourage us to think about what the future might hold. To me, that's Science-Fiction.

Of course, the point of the story isn't just the science. Think about the time in which the story was originally published in 1959 - that's 65 years ago, a mere 14 years after the end of WWII (which is 9 years less than the time that has elapsed since the terrorist attack of 9/11). 1959 was the height of the Cold War, a time when a nuclear WWIII seemed like an inevitability and Americans feared we might be trailing the Russians in technological advances due to the successful Sputnik launch of 1957 (but prior to the turning point of the Cuban Missile Crisis). While post-war scientific advances had made many improvements possible in domestic life, science was also seen as something scary that could potentially end all life on Earth at any time. Hospitals were just beginning to be viewed as a place where you could go to get better, rather than as a place you went to die. Flowers for Algernon did suggest ways in which science might improve one's life in the future, but perhaps its most enduring impact might be the firm point it made (as has been noted in the comments above) about how people with mental or physical disabilities were treated at the time. Although the story can't take sole credit for the changes in the public mindset, it's worth noting that 5 years after the publication of the short story Flowers for Algernon, critical anti-discrimination legislation was included in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, followed four years later by the Architectural Barriers Act.

To me, Flowers for Algernon is Science Fiction (the short story won the Hugo Award in 1960 and a few years later the novel was a co-winner of the Nebula Award - these are generally considered the two most prestigious awards in Science Fiction) but maybe more important than that it is literature that successfully appeals to even people who don't normally read Science Fiction. The reason for this, I think, is the focus on the feelings the story inspires within us as Charlie is teased by co-workers, and the mixed feelings we have as Charlie's treatments progress and how it changes the way he is treated by others.

For those who enjoyed this story, you might also like the short story "Understand" by Ted Chiang which is included in his collection Stories of Your Life and Others (the title story was filmed as "Arrival" and is also an excellent read).

Finished the book so I will tackle the questions:

What is important about the title? Is there a reference in the novel that explains the title?

++(view spoiler)[ Algernon is the only one Charlie can relate to as his intelligence grows. When he is going to Warren at the end he asks that flowers continue to be out on Algernon's grave (hide spoiler)] ++

-What statement does the novel make, directly or indirectly, about the treatment of the mentally challenged?
++It directly condemns the treatment through actions taken by his mother and co-workers ++

-Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?

++ of course he does, but they were acceptable at the time and there was no way for him to know that 50 years later the terns used would be considered inappropriate. When the book was written there were official definitions of "moron" and "idiot" based on IQ, but not today as we evolve and get more educated about the brain ++

-What passages could have been grounds for banning Flowers for Algernon (as it was several times)?(view spoiler)

++ (view spoiler)[ when he is caught pleasing himself was probably the most offensive to most censors, and what some would consider to be explicit sex scenes (hide spoiler)] ++

-Consider the location and time period of the novel. Would changing one or both have changed the story significantly?

If it has taken place 100 years earlier no one would have cared about "fixing" him, and also it had to occur late enough to know about phenylketonuria which is what Charlie has

-How are women portrayed in Flowers for Algernon? What would have been different about the story if Charlie had been a woman who underwent such a controversial surgery?

++the women are caricatures. they would have been more framed at the sexual awakening if Charlie were female ++

-Are the doctors who operate on Charlie acting in his best interests? Do you think Charlie would have gone through with the operation if he knew what the ultimate outcome would be?
++ To some extent they are acting in his interests and others like him...they honestly think they will be better off with more intelligence. I don't believe Charlie had the capacity to decide or fully understand what the ultimate outcome could be ++

-What is the central message of the novel? Is there more than one moral to the story of Charlie's treatment?
++One is about being careful of unintended consequences. The other would be about the treatment of test subjects, the scientists only thought of Charlie as a research subject not a person making it easier for them to conduct an experiment they knew could go bad. And perhaps about the treatment of people with intellectual disabilities as it does emphasize the ways his co-workers used Charlie for their own amusement.++

-What does the novel suggest about the connection between intelligence and happiness?

++(view spoiler)[ that intelligence can't buy happiness, and in fact it might be the opposite as his intelligence alienated people and often left him bored (hide spoiler)]+++
-What genre do you think this novel belongs to: ​Science fiction or horror? Explain your answer.

+++Science fiction, because it is a fictional account of how scientific advancements can go awry and have unintended circumstances. I sort of see this book as similar to Brave New World in how it starts out plausible-fixing the protein issues that cause brain issues in phenylketonurics- but then delves into what could go wrong. We do in fact know today what substances interfere with phenylketonuria so they can be avoided +++

Terri wrote: "Q:Flowers for Algernon was published in the mid-1960s. Are Keyes' views on mental disability and intelligence dated? Does he use terms to describe Charlie that are no longer considered appropriate?..."

It's mentioned in the book he has phenylketonuria, which causes the build up of an amino acid called phenylalanine which in turn causes intellectual disability. Its genetic

If you drink diet sodas or teas or use artificial sweeteners, they all have a warning that says "phenylketonurics: contains phenylalanine' as the treatment now involves avoiding the amino acid and using supplements. People with PKU can lead a full life if they follow a strict diet to avoid phenylalanine

I just came to this part of the book today.