Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz discussion

Thanks to Owen for this idea... we were chatting about book lists and he listed some list titles that he'd like to read and I loved this one.

I want to see a list of "books that influenced the genre in ways I didn't appreciate (and maybe you didn't either)". And since I couldn't find one after a bit of a google search, I put it out to all of you.

So, what books that influenced the genre in ways you didn't appreciate?

Well, influence is always a two-edged sword.

Although Tolkien was a major pillar of the genre, he is surely to blame for all the horrible lame imitators that followed him. All the Extruded Fantasy Product of the past generation can be laid at his feet and those of Gary Gygax.

Diana Gabaldon is on the hook IMO for all those imitative TT romances, usually with a picture of a shirtless man with a great six-pack on the cover. You would never know that time travel existed for anything other than having hot sex with someone in different fashions.

Alicja wrote: "So, what books that influenced the genre in ways you didn't appreciate?"

Do you mean "didn't appreciate" as in "didn't understand at the time," or as in "didn't like"? (Oh English, we love you for your screwiness, don't we?)

Text wrote: "Alicja wrote: "So, what books that influenced the genre in ways you didn't appreciate?"

Do you mean "didn't appreciate" as in "didn't understand at the time," or as in "didn't like"? (Oh English,..."

Since Alicja used my wording, I'll say that I meant it in the sense "didn't realize, understand, or fully comprehend". I suppose other meanings would also be valid. ;-)

What brought this particularly to my mind were authors like C. L. Moore and Leigh Bracket (who were at times both mistaken for men, as it happens). C. L. Moore, in particular, I think wrote some fairly ground-breaking stories. Tracing her [possible] influence on later authors is not something I've done, but I wonder about it.

I was also wondering whether C.J. Cherryh's work has influenced how alien cultures are portrayed (or to what degree). I don't think Melissa Scott has ever been a hugely popular author, but she was the first author I encountered in sci-fi who didn't treat lesbian relationships as a "curiosity".

Obviously, I'm just think out loud here and I'm not well-read enough to posit what degree of influence these authors may have had. But that was what was on my mind when I made the comment.

Its hard to gauge influence but sometimes I read something sff older than me like The Day of the Triffids, and its so plain to see how many apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic books these days have the same exact themes but it was new back then (now its just typical).

Game of Thrones:
Apparently realism in Fantasy now supposedly means rape, rape, rape and of course killing off your main characters randomly without ending their character arc because, le gasp, that would actually mean some effort from the writer.

Yeah, I'm horribly annoyed about this book series.
Truth is still stranger than fiction and killing your darlings means laying off your shitty writing habits, not actually killing your characters. alkdjakdla

Brenda wrote: "You would never know that time travel existed for anything other than having hot sex with someone in different fashions."

Sounds to me like a valid excuse to invent time travel...

If we go back a bit, I'd throw Henry Kuttner into the mix. I kept happening on his name when reading the bios of authors from the 60's and 70's (some of whom I'll mention in a minute) and I've been pecking away at his work. It is dated in many ways, but there are elements that you can see influencing later writers.

The first name I thought of when reading the OP was the one Brenda mentioned: Gygax.

He's a weird one. He did, after all, write a few fantasy novels, but mostly his influence was as a RPG game designer. Essentially, he created a new medium for the genre. His influence as a "creative" writer is pretty insignificant, but as a "writer" in the broader sense, he's huge. I'd argue that any number of things that are now embraced as "geek culture" are related to Gygax's work in one way or another.

With that in mind, Gygax's influences like Moorcock and Lieber should get mentioned. (They are amongst the authors whose bios led me to Kuttner.)

Another one I think we should at least mention is Stan Lee. These days--and for some time--he's very recognizable, but if superheros are the modern mythology (and they are) then he's the equivalent of Homer.... Comic books are not always F/SF, and might also be considered another medium in the same way gaming probably should be, but I think they are similarly influential on more traditional F/SF than is commonly recognized.

Gary wrote: "If we go back a bit, I'd throw Henry Kuttner into the mix. I kept happening on his name when reading the bios of authors from the 60's and 70's (some of whom I'll mention in a minut..."

Wasn't Kuttner C.L. Moore's husband?

I still have a copy Gygax's "Chainmail" (spiral bound), with the fantasy supplement at the back (the forerunner to D&D).

Owen wrote: "Wasn't Kuttner C.L. Moore's husband?"

Yep. I've read that their work was, literally, "their" work. As in, they collaborated pretty extensively.

I may still have the little brown, stapled "D&D" books (pamphlets, really) around someplace. I doubt it, though.

Another thing that occurs to me is there are likely books that influenced F/SF that aren't themselves part of the genre. For instance, the "hard-boiled" style of Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler certainly influenced the style of guys like Roger Zelazny. The Horatio Hornblower series by C. S. Forester is often cited as the character upon whom Captain Kirk was based.

Gary wrote: "Yep. I've read that their work was, literally, "their" work. As in, they collaborated pretty extensively.

I may still have the little brown, st..."

I'd heard also about them. It shines an interesting light on their work.

Last I checked I still old bound copies of the DM's Guide, the Monster Manual etc, from ~1979[?]. I occasionally wonder if they are worth more than scrap value.

It seems the "noir/hard-boiled" style has had a lot of influence. Urban fantasy may be largely based on it? (And maybe dystopian?) I don't read either genre, so beyond those authors who are obviously adopting/lampooning it, I don't know.

I didn't know that about Kirk. Interesting. (But didn't Hornblower keep his shirt on?) ;-)

I think I've read that Hornblower was a "major" influence on David Weber, which I suppose is possible, but it would make me wonder how Weber perceived Forester's work.

Yes, Hornblower is also visible in books like the TEMERAIRE series. Even in the Vorgosigan novels by Bujold.
The STAR TREK people liked how Capt. Hornblower had to deal with crises without being able to contact London for advice or counsel -- like Capt. Kirk he had to just pick up the ball and run on the spot, and hope that the higher-ups would approve. And in this you can also recognize Miles Vorkosigan's MO.

Brenda wrote: "Yes, Hornblower is also visible in books like the TEMERAIRE series. Even in the Vorgosigan novels by Bujold."

I did notice the influence in the two Temeraire books I read (the first two in the series). It seemed like she looked more to Hornblower than, say, O'Brian.

Yes, that's true about Miles V. Has Bujold ever talked about her influences anywhere?

Oh sure. Have a look at the dedication for CIVIL CAMPAIGN, for instance. Dorothy Sayers and Georgette Heyer.

Brenda wrote: "Oh sure. Have a look at the dedication for CIVIL CAMPAIGN, for instance. Dorothy Sayers and Georgette Heyer."

That's interesting. That explains a comment she made a brief email exchange I had with her after she published "Memory". I guess she got a lot of flack from readers (and her publisher) for changing the direction of her work, which she'd apparently been wanting to do for sometime.

MEMORY is a hinge work. From there you can look back, to the space operas of Miles' earlier life, and forward to the more complex (but still action oriented!) novels of his latter years. It will be interesting to see what kind of work the new one will be. (You have heard, have you not, that a new Vorkosigan novel is coming out in 2016?)

Oh, and let us continue to blame people! I cannot recall who it was who wrote the stage version of DRACULA that appeared in the 1980s -- it was on Broadway and starred an unutterably sexy Frank Langella. But it is he (or Frank Langella, I suppose) who moved vampires from the pure horror monster of the Bela Lugosi days to the overtly sexual seducer who just has a thing about neck biting. All those sparkly vamps and brooding YAs about vampires, all to be blamed on that production. From there Anne Rice picked up the ball and moved it down the field so far that there was no going back.

Brenda wrote: "MEMORY is a hinge work. From there you can look back, to the space operas of Miles' earlier life, and forward to the more complex (but still action oriented!) novels of his latter years. It will be..."

Very much so. I'll admit I was kinda peeved at the time, mainly because she had Miles dump Quinn. I actually preferred Quinn to Miles much of the time. I also thought Bel Thorne was a great character who never got enough attention (so to speak).

No, I had not heard that. Now that she's been writing those novels for 30+ years, I'll have to see how things have evolved.

Brenda wrote: "Oh, and let us continue to blame people! I cannot recall who it was who wrote the stage version of DRACULA that appeared in the 1980s -- it was on Broadway and starred an unutterably sexy Frank Lan..."

Not what I read, so I can't comment learnedly, but the initial impulse to make a horrific figure seductive is one I can understand and appreciate. But then, chardonnay was good thing too -- until the industry started ripping out whole vineyards of equally meritorious grapes to replant with it (thereby causing the practical extinction of some of my favorite wines). I suppose given an opening, dingbattery happens.

Brenda wrote: "Oh, and let us continue to blame people! I cannot recall who it was who wrote the stage version of DRACULA that appeared in the 1980s -- it was on Broadway and starred an unutterably sexy Frank Lan..."

That is one scary trend. Scary because I've seen ZOMBIE! romances. WTF? Zombies should be scary, not sexified.

Like Warm Bodies...

'R' is a zombie. He has no name, no memories and no pulse, but he has dreams. He is a little different from his fellow Dead.

Amongst the ruins of an abandoned city, R meets a girl. Her name is Julie and she is the opposite of everything he knows - warm and bright and very much alive, she is a blast of colour in a dreary grey landscape. For reasons he can't understand, R chooses to save Julie instead of eating her, and a tense yet strangely tender relationship begins.

This has never happened before. It breaks the rules and defies logic, but R is no longer content with life in the grave. He wants to breathe again, he wants to live, and Julie wants to help him. But their grim, rotting world won't be changed without a fight...

O.o

Owen wrote: That is one scary trend. Scary because I've seen ZOMBIE! romances. WTF? Zombies should be scary, not sexified..."

I was really hoping this was some weird outlier, not something published by S&S four years ago that has 2000+ Amazon reviews and is still at a ~33,000 sales rank. :-/

Owen wrote: "I was really hoping this was some weird outlier, not something published by S&S four years ago that has 2000+ Amazon reviews and is still at a ~33,000 sales rank. :-/ "

If you really want to be frightened then click on this link (if you dare): https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/8...

And if that wasn't enough, take a peek at this... I Fucked a Zombie Horde

Alicja wrote: "And if that wasn't enough, take a peek at this... I Fucked a Zombie Horde"

Y'know, if there's such a thing as bestselling zombie romance, you might as well go all the way to fucking zombie hordes. I see no point in restraint. (Maybe it's even a step in the right direction?)

Alicja wrote: "That is one scary trend. Scary because I've seen ZOMBIE! romances. WTF? Zombies should be scary, not sexified."

I have a theory that when it comes to the villains in F/SF we go through a cycle:

Vampire
Zombie
Witches
Aliens
Ghosts
Psycho killers
Demons/The Devil

There are a few other ones that jump in. Giant monsters, a la Godzilla, occasionally become a trend for a while. Werewolves, it seems to me, often get paired with vampires, but only sometimes get their own fad/trend. It needn't go in that particular order, but for about ten years one or the other will dominate the scene. While doing so, the theme will go through a series of shifts:

Scary
Victim
Funny
Friendly
Sexy
Sad

That is, they'll start off with scary movies, transition into movies where the monster is a misunderstood, tragic character, then the comedies will kick in, they'll move in next door, we'll have sex with them, and then they'll suffer from the standard range of middle class neuroses. In recent years, mash-ups are increasingly popular, but I suspect that's a sign that the trend has been played out and people are both trying to extend the existing one and grope around for the next.

Sooner or later, the next one in the cycle will take over.

So, you know when the romance/domestic stuff starts to dominate that the trend is just about played out and people are looking around for the next thing.

The $64m question, of course, is what will be next? (My guess is that we'll go back to serial killers.)

Oh lord, those are -dull-.
What a depressing cycle! We've got to do better. I will go and write something.

You guys are making me feel ashamed of my Teen Wolf sexy warewolf fanfiction obsession. Who can resist when warewolves come with abs like these?