The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of April 6th – April 12th, we are reading Chapter Three, p. 64 - 81
Cleopatra Captures the Old Man of the book - Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

Week Four - April 6th – April 12th
Chapter Three, p. 64 - 81
III: Cleopatra Captures the Old Man

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on March 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on April 6th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Stacy Schiff

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--

by Stacy Schiff

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of April 6th – April 12th , we are reading Chapter Three - Cleopatra Captures the Old Man, p. 64 - 81.

The fourth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Four - April 6th – April 12th, 2015
Chapter Three: Cleopatra Captures the Old Man - pages 64 - 81
Note: This week's reading begins with the sentence "There was reason to celebrate, all the more so after having been cooped up behind a thicket of barricades for the better part of six months."

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Three - Cleopatra Captures the Old Man

Now that the Alexandrian war was over, it was time to celebrate. First of all, Cleopatra was married to her 12 year old brother Ptolemy XIV, since there must always be a king and queen, although Ptolemy probably didn’t have much to say about what went on in the kingdom. Anyone at court who had been against Cleopatra was gotten rid of and their possessions seized. The city had to be cleaned up after the fighting and restored to its former splendor. Lavish banquets were given with elaborate entertainments.

Even though he had set up Egypt’s affairs in his favor, and he was needed elsewhere to stamp out the remnants of Pompey’s forces, Caesar lingered in Egypt, taking a trip up the Nile to see the splendors of that ancient civilization. When he finally left for Armenia, Cleopatra was weeks from giving birth to his baby.

Folks, we are kicking off the third week of the Cleopatra discussion - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

Quite a lot in this section about Alexandria. What a shame most of the ancient city is beneath the harbor.

The descriptions in this chapter made me feel like I was witnessing a royal banquet, or traveling up the Nile with Cleopatra and Caesar.

Apparently the Romans didn't care much for women who had power or could make their own decisions, as Cleopatra did in her relationship with Caesar. Do the rest of you feel that this attitude has changed much in regard to female rulers/politicians?

Heather wrote: "Apparently the Romans didn't care much for women who had power or could make their own decisions, as Cleopatra did in her relationship with Caesar..."

You're right about the Romans, and the Greeks were even worse. We've come a long way (baby), but women are still at a disadvantage. Several countries - Great Britain, India, Israel, Pakistan - have had women as heads of state, and not just as figureheads.

Vicki wrote: "Heather wrote: "Apparently the Romans didn't care much for women who had power or could make their own decisions, as Cleopatra did in her relationship with Caesar..."

You're right about the Romans..."

The US seems a bit slow in this regard, to say the least!

What do you think about the possibility Caesar didn't annex Egypt to control its resources (especially the grain) better with Cleopatra, who was popular among the native Egyptians?

I think it might just be what I'd do.

Heather wrote: "The descriptions in this chapter made me feel like I was witnessing a royal banquet, or traveling up the Nile with Cleopatra and Caesar. ..."

Yes.

José Luís wrote: "What do you think about the possibility Caesar didn't annex Egypt to control its resources (especially the grain) better with Cleopatra, who was popular among the native Egyptians?"

Probably true. If he had tried to have more Roman control over Egypt, he might have had to station some legions there, and he was still fighting the remnants of Pompey's army.

Heather wrote: "The descriptions in this chapter made me feel like I was witnessing a royal banquet, or traveling up the Nile with Cleopatra and Caesar..."

I never have a hankering to go to one of the banquets. Too much unfamiliar food - they always seem to be serving sow's udders (ick). But I would love to have gone on the trip on the Nile.

Oh, but Vicki, they drank a lot of wine and beer, so even if the food was revolting, would anyone care? :-) You would always have fruit and bread(ish) stuff.

I do like how the author puts everything in perspective for the reader. I had not thought about how the Valley of the Kings had already been raided by Cleopatra's time and Troy would have been "ancient history" to her as well.

I am amazed by the fact (I don't remember where I heard this ) that the Pyramids were ancient history to Cleopatra.

Karen wrote: "I am amazed by the fact (I don't remember where I heard this ) that the Pyramids were ancient history to Cleopatra."

True enough. The most famous ones were built during the 2500s BC, farther away from Cleopatra than she is from us. It's also amazing that the sphinx, built around the same time, was buried in the sand and thus Cleopatra and Caesar never saw it.

I knew that Egypt depended on the Nile for its survival, but I didn't realize it was viewed as having "magical" properties .."its river creatures attained staggering proportions"...and attributed to high rates of fertility, "Egyptian women...have an elevated rate of giving birth to twins, often quadruplets." (p. 78)

It's natural a society heavily dependent on a river like the Nile creates such a bond. They even had a specific God responsible for the Nile floods - Hapi. The Egyptians went to the point of calling Egyps as "Kemet", which meant the "Black Lands" in ancient Egyptian.

This chapter, so I am three months behind you folks - sorry, really made me think about the intrigues of Egypt and the sophistication of Alexandria and I too would have like to visit. (not the right historical time maybe for an American to go)
I would have to think, with his experience in both war, control & love, Caesar made in the end a deliberate decision that it was better for Rome, with Caesar important, so I lean to agree with msg 9 Jose Luis.

Don't worry about being a bit behind in the reading, Vincent. I'm glad you're liking the book and look forward to your comments. Caesar probably trusted Cleopatra to do what he needed done in Egypt, and any Roman governor he might appoint could have had his own ideas and plots.

Apt terminology for this time period - it is a miracle that any of them survived each other.