The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I was quite amused by the exaggerated list of Duke's titles and the outlandish discription of his luxuries. He does seem to be quite clueless in his attempts to try and woo Zuleika.

Silver wrote: "I was quite amused by the exaggerated list of Duke's titles and the outlandish discription of his luxuries. He does seem to be quite clueless in his attempts to try and woo Zuleika."

Yes, so was I, it made me laugh. Beerbohm is fun.

Silver wrote: "I was quite amused by the exaggerated list of Duke's titles and the outlandish discription of his luxuries. He does seem to be quite clueless in his attempts to try and woo Zuleika."

Yes, he is, indeed.

But this situation is starting to go on too long for my tastes. These last two chapters have basically shown no movement forward (or backward). If the rest of the book is just going to go on in the same vein, I'm going to lose interest fairly quickly. I'm not asking for spoilers, but maybe somebody who is further along can just say how much more of this "she is in love with him but refuses to admit but uses him for her ends, he is desperately in love with her but is continuing to get nowhere" pattern.

The classic formula, of course, is "guy finds girl, guy loses girl, guy gets girl back." Speculative querying (not asking for an answer since that would be a spoiler): will the Duke ever lose Zuleika so he can get her back, or is the formula not to be followed here?

It does go on and on Everyman, he is satirising the OTT romantic novels of the period, all those vapours and swooning:)

The book is reminding me of Oscar Wilde, with its unlikely situations and unrelenting witticisms. I'm finding that despite the wit, its heartlessness makes me quite uneasy. Beerbohm gives his characters minimal depth or humanity and then jeers at them (eg where he compares Zuleika gazing at the Duke to a little girl with a brand-new and very expensive doll.) It's all very clever but...

Emma wrote: "The book is reminding me of Oscar Wilde, with its unlikely situations and unrelenting witticisms. I'm finding that despite the wit, its heartlessness makes me quite uneasy. Beerbohm gives his char..."

I don't know if satire can be handled with a lot of heart. I do think he likes Zuleika (as far as I've read, anyway), despite her self-obsession... which is far more palatable than the duke's.

I agree this book goes on and on to the point where I did not care anymore. I might be a little ahead but there are 3 chapters where it switches to Greek mythology. I thought my E-reader switched books. I had to check and make sure I was still reading Zuleika Dobson.

The forever list of titles and holdings and his apparent shock at being called a snob (after all he had deigned to consider an alliance with someone beneath him, had he not?) were humorous. I agree that the book seems to be at a plateau (much like my current diet).

BTW, the schedule calls for chapters 1-4 and now chapters 6-8...I'm afraid I read chapter 5 before I realized I was meant to skip it. :)

I think this book would lend itself to a wonderful audio performance, with the right reader, as a lot of it is just about language and presentation.

Ha! No skipping!

I have to agree with the rest of you. This section did go on longer than necessary without moving the plot. I do think its funny that Zulieka's interest is peaked again, now that the Duke might destroy himself for love. Just not 4 chapters' worth.

"I love him! No, I don't now that he loves me. Oh, wait! He might kill himself over me. That's interesting. Maybe I'll just keep him around til then."

Renee wrote: "Ha! No skipping!

I have to agree with the rest of you. This section did go on longer than necessary without moving the plot. I do think its funny that Zulieka's interest is peaked again, now that the Duke might destroy himself for love. Just not 4 chapters' worth..."

Zuleika seems very innocent and unworldly, despite her travels and connections... it had never occurred to her that someone might be willing to die for love. Plus, she boasted about all her devotees always recovering, getting married, and living happily ever after. I thought that sounded very unlikely, and a convenient ploy for Max to use to make the Duke's decision seem more dramatic.

Sara wrote ..."
BTW, the schedule calls for chapters 1-4 and now chapters 6-8...I'm afraid I read chapter 5 before I realized I was meant to skip it. :)


Lol oops, I never was good with numbers.

Janice,
Was it the 'happily ever after' that seemed unlikely?

Actually your comment has given me something else to think about. I was viewing the suggestion as melodramatic one-ups-manship but Z might see it as true devotion.

I find these characters are all too shallow to elicit any empathy, which is, of course, intentional. I did appreciate the Hitchcock-like way in which Beerbohm inserted himself into the story, having Zuleika make a reference to sitting next to him at a dinner.

Because I am American, I especially enjoy getting a glimpse of British reactions to Americans of the time. I thought the comments regarding the Rhodes scholar quite hilarious. In the end, he is no different than his British peers, however, in that he is willing to follow the crowd in loving, toasting, and wishing to die for Z. I keep remembering that we are told she was not entirely beautiful, but then her beauty is such that men part in waves before her and can concentrate on nothing else. I have to scratch my head at the dichotomy.

"But the loveliest of face in all the world will not please you if you see it suddenly, eye to eye, at a distance of half an inch from your own. It was thus that the Duke saw Zuleika's: a monstrous deliquium a glare. Only for the fraction of an instant, though. Recoiling, he beheld the loveliness that he knew..."
She can only be worshiped from afar. Reality makes her unpalatable even to the Duke. Beerbohm seems certainly to realize that Z is almost entirely a figment of the imagination of the men she obsesses.

Yes, it is wearing, and yet I suspect that is partly because there are so many satire-worthy subjects in Oxford. In the opening paragraphs of chapter 5, in reviewing the Duke's lineage and titles, I loved the footnoted pronunciation guide. The endless descriptions of his properties could be straight out of modern decor magazines. I loved the ghosts to whom the servants still bowed and curtsied. There was the dig at Zuleika's ugly tartan (from Paris!) and that she would have the right to wear a tartan if she married the Duke. The bizarre history of Judas College and the excitement roused by the boat-races. The ultra-exclusive club (with the Duke as the one remaining member at one point) and its arcane rules of who could speak to whom and when. The Duke's slavish devotion to his duty-to the point that he would pass up dinner with the woman he loves on the last night of his life to keep his engagement at his club.

I also thought his explanation of why Americans love Oxford and yet never feel quite comfortable there was rather painfully close to the mark.

The reference to tartan is probably a dig at Queen Victoria and Prince Albert who loved it and who famously carpetted Balmoral Castle with it, as well as designing and wearing tartans themselves:

http://www.tartansauthority.com/tarta...

This sparked a fashion for elaborate tartan dresses, some of which are illustrated here:

http://plaidpetticoats.blogspot.co.uk...

The references to clubs at Oxford reminded me that our current Prime Minister his Chancellor and the Lord Mayor of London are all Etonians who attended Oxford and were members of the notorious Bullingdon club, with its arcane rituals, mentioned in ZD, where they got very drunk and smashed up restaurants whilst rampaging the town.

Another satirical reference is the description of the grounds of the Duke's castle with its statues, grottoes etc. There was a late Victorian fashion for placing Greek statues and temples in your grounds, even hermitages complete with salaried hermit! The best example is probably at Stowe in Buckinghamshire:

https://mikejackson1948.wordpress.com...

I am enjoying this book immensely! Just like many of you, I neither like the Duke nor certainly Zuleika, but then I don't imagine the reader is supposed to like them.
I was at once captivated by the busts of the Roman emperors, watching silently:
"Who were lechers, they are without bodies; who were tyrants, they are crowned never but with crowns of snow; who made themselves even with the gods, they are by American visitors frequently mistaken for the Twelve Apostles". Hahahah!!!!
I thought at first that the slight supernatural element of the story was going to be off-putting, but so far I haven't found that to be the case. I love that the Emperors feel pity for the poor Duke but, as they are unable to stay the course, watch in utter fascination; the pearls changing color was a lovely addition too. This reminds me very much of Wilde, and the supernatural element in Dorian. Also, recall how Dorian loved Sybil so long as she was the embodiment of art, but ceased to love her when she ceased to be this very embodiment?
I am at the edge of my seat! Is the Duke indeed going to die as the text has already stated? Perhaps it won't be a literal death, but rather a dandy's death?
I'd start discussing the "dandy" and "confirmed bachelor" at Oxford, but I will wait until later chapters before I jump to conclusions about the Duke.

Oh GOD.... don't you hate it when you sit down to write just after reading for hours, and you end up sounding like the author you've been reading?

Great post Roxana, esp ref to Wilde and Dorian Gray. I guess you will be looking at Queer theory.

Zuleika really brought La Belle sans Merci to mind during her conversation with the Duke regarding the two young men she wanted to be introduced to and grant then the "opportunity" to fall in love with her.

Though she doesn't act from malicious intent she feeds upon the affections of others and leaves them pining after her in her wake without granting them another thought and comvinces herself she is doing them a favor by allowing them to adore her.

I must confess that I actually like Zuleika. She seems like such a free and independent spirit and there is something so nymph-like/natural about her. She is almost fey like. And though she does thrive on the adoration she revives it is not something she has willful control over.

I don't necessarily see Zuleika as being shallow really. She is rather disinterested in wealth, money, materialistic things and in spite of her beauty she does not come across as vien. Maybe she is child-like and dosent possesses a great depth of intellectual thought but what she truly wants is to be able to love and she cannot love one who would grovel before her because she is so overwhelmed by that kind of attention.

Frances wrote: "Yes, it is wearing, and yet I suspect that is partly because there are so many satire-worthy subjects in Oxford. In the opening paragraphs of chapter 5, in reviewing the Duke's lineage and titles, ..."

All of the things listed here are what makes this novel still fun to read after so many years have elapsed. I found myself nodding in agreement with things that I think echo similar absurdities in our own time.

MadgeUK wrote: "The reference to tartan is probably a dig at Queen Victoria and Prince Albert who loved it and who famously carpetted Balmoral Castle with it, as well as designing and wearing tartans themselves:

..." Thank you, Madge. I was trying to imagine a tartan carpet without any idea that V&A had actually done such a thing.

Silver wrote: "Zuleika really brought La Belle sans Merci to mind during her conversation with the Duke regarding the two young men she wanted to be introduced to and grant then the "opportunity" to fall in love ..."

Difficult for me to "like" someone who would actually want to see another person die for them. She actually asks him to be sure to call out her name as he dies so that others will know for sure that he died FOR HER. Sort of beyond Narcissism to me. I'm afraid I do not find anything redemptive about her. Nor does she seem childlike to me. She seems rather to be completely uncaring and unconcerned for anyone outside herself. I think her obsession with someone who does not profess love for her is about the challenge of having someone who is different from the masses and therefore more worthy of someone as "unique" as herself.

It will be interesting to see where this ends up, particularly in light of the promise that we have that the Duke does not live at the time of this writing.

Sara: All of it is meant to be fun, a send up of the ridiculous things people say and do when they are falling in and out of 'lurv'. Dying for a loved one is a common theme of romance novels and poetry but it rarely happens, it is a conceit. Beerbohm is making fun of it and showing what might happen to people who take it to the extreme. And this is 'An Oxford Romance' so it is intellectualised to the nth degree.

MadgeUK wrote: "Sara: All of it is meant to be fun, a send up of the ridiculous things people say and do when they are falling in and out of 'lurv'. Dying for a loved one is a common theme of romance novels and po..."
I KNOW that Madge. I am familar with satire. Should that make me like her character? I think the point of satire is to exaggerate things that can actually be found in human experience. I have been chuckling at the absurdities. While the author is jabbing at the contrivance of "dying for love", for the character of Z within the novel the idea that the Duke will die for love of her is quite real.

Sara wrote: It is difficult for me to "like" someone who would actually want to see another person die for them. She actually asks him to be sure to call out her name as he dies so that others will know for sure that he died FOR HER. Sort of beyond Narcissism to me.

When the Duke first makes known to her his intention she does initially attempt to talk him out of it but when it becomes clear to her that the only thing which will change his mind is if she were to declare her love for him, which she cannot do, she makes the best of it and does turn it to her best advantage and I can appreciate the poetic Romanticism in the gesture.

Her accepting/celebrating his sacrifice for her love is exactly what he wanted of her, knowing he could not have her in life.

On the supernatural note, Zuleika makes me think of the not-quite-human Veela of Harry Potter fame (think the Willis from the ballet "Giselle").

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Veela

Did anyone else catch the item about ghosts and mould? Perhaps this can add a modern explanation to the odd behaviours we are seeing in this novel:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...

All I can think is how moldy Hogwarts must be.

#26: Sorry Sara, I thought you were taking her seriously.

MadgeUK wrote: "Great post Roxana, esp ref to Wilde and Dorian Gray. I guess you will be looking at Queer theory."

Yes absolutely Madge, and thank you!

Silver wrote: "Zuleika really brought La Belle sans Merci to mind during her conversation with the Duke regarding the two young men she wanted to be introduced to and grant then the "opportunity" to fall in love ..."

Good point Silver! Now that you mention it, she does seems a lot like La Belle Dame.
"I saw pale kings and princes too,
Pale warriors, death-pale were they all;
They cried—“La Belle Dame sans Merci
Hath thee in thrall!”
And just like the tragic knight in Keats' poem, our Duke is already doomed from the very start.

I love all of the Shakespearean quotes and elements, the Greek and Roman allusions and the historical references; it also has poetic influence as you've pointed out. I wish I could see a list of all of the books Beerbohm read.

Renee wrote: "Janice,
Was it the 'happily ever after' that seemed unlikely?

Actually your comment has given me something else to think about. I was viewing the suggestion as melodramatic one-ups-manship but Z m..."

No, I thought it was strange to go on and on about crowds parting and every man falling in love -- obsessive behavior -- and yet all the men (and some women) took her rejection without a trauma or qualm and moved on to the next love object. But as we can see, the whole situation seems unlikely, so why one thing is paradoxical or stranger than another is probably not important.

I kind of like Z too, Silver. I think, whether she knows it or not, Z is looking for someone who is not compelled to worship her for her charismatic appearance. While she thinks she is looking for that one person who doesn't care, maybe she would like something more meaningful (tho' I don't see any hint of Beerbohm taking us into profound or meaningful territory yet).

I really enjoy all the absurdities.

Some of the book is humorous to me, while other parts are somewhat slow. I think Z found she could more easily survive in the world using the attention. She then got used to it, and as others have stated, feeds off of it. I do think she's gotten bored with it and wants the challenge of somebody who doesn't follow the masses and become instantly in love with her. The fact that she would have to work for that love seems to appeal to her.

I really enjoyed the Beerbohm cameo in these chapters. It made me smile, and think about Hitchcock. I enjoyed the ghost too. Interesting article on ghosts and mould.

Even though it's satire, the ghost and the private club reminds me how influenced we are by the past, and traditions in particular. Loved the part where the Duke was the last member, yet he kept going through the process to obtain new members, and black balling them. The Groucho club quote definitely comes to mind. How many times do we do something similar, cutting our nose off, in our own lives? More often that I think we realize.

It's interesting to me to see how this author is able to poke fun at the world, yet also make you think about it more deeply than just a smile.

One thing I forgot to mention before, the quick exit through the window reminds me of some of the slapstick comedy found in the silent movies. The Keystone Cops come to mind.

Anyone else finding echoes of Jane Austen’s satire on the vanities of society?

Max Beerbohm told a woman journalist asking his opinion of Mansfield Park that 'Jane Austen always leaves me cold', so he would perhaps not be inclined to imitate her. His model was more likely to be Oscar Wilde, who was the other great wit of his day. There are some interesting observations about Beerbohm's friendship and admiration of Wilde here:

http://www.mr-oscar-wilde.de/about/b/...

MadgeUK wrote: "It does go on and on Everyman, he is satirising the OTT romantic novels of the period, all those vapours and swooning:)"

Given your postings on pink, I would think that you would hate all his feminine stereotyping -- how can you stand the book?

Janice George (JG) wrote: "Zuleika seems very innocent and unworldly, despite her travels and connections... it had never occurred to her that someone might be willing to die for love. "

Well, though, really, do you think even somebody who was sophisticated and worldly would think somebody would actually commit suicide because somebody wouldn't love them?

Frances wrote: "Yes, it is wearing, and yet I suspect that is partly because there are so many satire-worthy subjects in Oxford."

Nice list. Yes, he does have fun with Oxford, which is a bit of comic relief from D&Z. Unfortunately not enough of it.

Deborah wrote: "Some of the book is humorous to me, while other parts are somewhat slow."

That's pretty much my feeling, except that I think the "other parts" are a majority of the book, and the "somewhat" is getting be "excruciatingly."

What keeps me reading at this point is the quality of the writing and the satirical descriptions of Oxford traditions.

Abigail wrote: "Anyone else finding echoes of Jane Austen’s satire on the vanities of society?"

Not really. Austen is much more subtle, using a fine pointed needle to slip her wit into her work. Beerbohm is very broad brush, spewing his wit like the effluvium of a sixth grade science volcano.

MadgeUK wrote: "Max Beerbohm told a woman journalist asking his opinion of Mansfield Park that 'Jane Austen always leaves me cold',"

I'm glad to hear that. It would worry me if he had enjoyed her. I would have to wonder what I was missing in his work.

Everyman wrote: "Janice George (JG) wrote: "Zuleika seems very innocent and unworldly, despite her travels and connections... it had never occurred to her that someone might be willing to die for love. "

Well, though, really, do you think even somebody who was sophisticated and worldly would think somebody would actually commit suicide because somebody wouldn't love them?..."

I think that's what Beerbohm wants us to think. As we get to know Z more, tho', I still think she is strangely naïve, and it's possible it's because of her narcissism... she is so very self-involved, she really can't grasp how the rest of the world thinks, acts, or feels, unless it somehow relates to her.

#38: Satirising is not stereotyping, he is taking the mickey out of extreme femininity and dandyism which is fine by me. I don't much like the book. It is too OTT for me.

(Edited.)

MadgeUK wrote: "#40 Satirising is not stereotyping, he is taking the mickey out of extreme femininity and dandyism which is fine by me. I don't much like the book. It is too OTT for me."

Not sure what this has to do with my post #40??

Everyman wrote: "Austen is much more subtle, using a fine pointed needle to slip her wit into her work. Beerbohm is very broad brush, spewing his wit like the effluvium of a sixth grade science volcano ..."

I like that description. The book does strike me as a sort of extended in-joke written chiefly to amuse and impress his peers (ie other male Oxford graduates)

Austen herself said that she wrote with 'a fine brush'. I think you are right in seeing it as an in-joke and I believe it was seen so at the time. His is a very broad brush, sometimes dipped in vitriol.

What I find interesting about Zuleika and the Duke's relationship is all the improbability it involves: Zuleika loving him only until he begins to love her, Zuleika's reaction to the Duke's threatened suicide, etc. The most prominent one seems to me that the Duke, though preparing to die for his love, is unwilling to skip the Junta meeting for her sake. How much irony there is in that, and how amusing the footnote is!
I greatly enjoyed this passage: "'All these men,' he repeated dreamily, "will be coy of your advances.' It seemed to him a good thing that his death, his awful example, would disinfatuate his fellow alumni. He had never been conscious of a public spirit. He had lived for himself alone. Love had come to him yesterday, and today had waked in him a sympathy with mankind. It was a fine thing to be a saviour. It was splendid to be human. He looked quickly round to her who had wrought this change in him."
At times both Zuleika and the Duke are intolerably cold-hearted and vain; at others they simply seem naive and childishly unconscious of their own pettiness. I can't help feeling some tenderness for the Duke, and his irrational feelings of grandeur and romanticism at the thought of suicide. The image of him clinging to the weeds beneath the race-boats is at once humorous and tragic.

Clara wrote: "What I find interesting about Zuleika and the Duke's relationship is all the improbability it involves: Zuleika loving him only until he begins to love her, Zuleika's reaction to the Duke's threate..."
I can't help finding the Duke a more sympathetic character than Zuleika. He is vain and ridiculous, but he is trying in some naive and mislead way to follow a code of honor he feels has been laid down for him. Zuleika, however, is motivated by self-aggrandizement and nothing more.