Ersatz TLS discussion

Hello everyone,
I hope you are all well and enjoying some good reading!

Thanks as ever G for the new thread.

Thanks also to Frustrated Artist for recommending



70 pages in and enjoying in very much. One thing is clear, civilisation was, and still is, a thin veneer and the Christian church at the time was nothing like Jesus would have envisaged as He suffered on the cross. I can't help comparing it with the religious extremists in our century.

I've finished Colleen McCullough's Caesar's Women, centered on a decade where most of his time was spent in Rome, not on campaign. The domestic life of the Romans plays a greater part than in The First Man in Rome, the McCullough I read years ago, about Caesar's great-uncle Marius.
The women are Caesar's mistress Servilia, his wily mother Aurelia, and his prized daughter Julia, whom we first see as a young girl, and at the end as a proud young matron. The dialogue is often clunky, but the book is a page turner.

Gpfr wrote: "Hello everyone,
I hope you are all well and enjoying some good reading!"

Thanks for the thread. Clouds and wind here today, a good day for reading.

After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its mix of reflective, thoughtful introspection with the sheer force of the Zorba character, offering an earthy "university of life", with far more charm than many of that ilk do.

Phillip K Dick's Flow my Tears, The Policeman Said is a rare journey into genre-fiction for me but i love the way he writes

I am also close to finishing Mei Trow's The Black Book on Nazi plans of liquidation for Brits and have started a collection of essays by Robert Musil Literature and Politics

Thanks for the new thread, GP...

I've started two new books but haven't properly got into either one yet... The Beasts of Paris by Stef Penney - I've enjoyed her previous three books - and The Three Roads by Ross Macdonald - not a Lew Archer story. The Penney is a bit of a doorstopper, and too heavy to read in bed - so the Macdonald will do there, on a Fire tablet (since my Kindle died). I bought the tablet for my mother, but she can no longer see to use it.

It's raining (again) here today... cue Supertramp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZUE4...

AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its mix of reflective, thoughtful introspection with the sheer force of the Zorba character, offering an earthy "university of life", with far more charm than many of that ilk do.

Phillip K Dick's Flow my Tears, The Policeman Said is a rare journey into genre-fiction for me but i love the way he writes

I am also close to finishing Mei Trow's The Black Book on Nazi plans of liquidation for Brits and have started a collection of essays by Robert Musil Literature and Politic..."

I haven't yet decided which Kazantzakis will be my first, but Zorba sounds like a good candidate. I've never seen the movie version.

I'm a great admirer of PKD's books and I'd say Flow My Tears is one of his best, He had to write a lot and at speed, just to make ends meet for most of his career, so there are times when that pressure shows but it's amazing how well most of his work reads in spite of those obstacles.

I'm interested in hearing how the Musil essays go. I thought his Man Without Qualities was great, even in its unfinished state.

I'm reading Trio, William Boyd. Another candidate for books about film-making that we were thinking about. So far so good ...

Berkley wrote: "Musil... I thought his Man Without Qualities was great, even in its unfinished state."

Tried to read it many years ago, but didn't get very far... it didn't speak to me, we weren't on the same wavelength. Too long ago to remember the reason.

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its mix of reflective, thoughtful..."

Kazantzakis is a brilliant writer and i am surprised its taken so long for me to start Zorba. I really enjoy novels with little plot but a lot of contemplation and thought in them and Zorba has more of that than i expected, maybe that will fade as i read more

Musil has started well, its quite a big volume with a comprehensive introduction

scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Musil... I thought his Man Without Qualities was great, even in its unfinished state."

Tried to read it many years ago, but didn't get very far... it didn't speak to me, we weren't..."

its not an easy read and sits alongside Manns The Magic Mountain and Finnegans Wake by Joyce as a marmite novel

scarletnoir wrote: "Thanks for the new thread, GP...

I've started two new books but haven't properly got into either one yet... The Beasts of Paris by Stef Penney - I've enjoyed her previous three boo..."

raining here too

AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Musil... I thought his Man Without Qualities was great, even in its unfinished state."

Tried to read it many years ago, but didn't get very far... it didn't spe..."

I enjoyed The Magic Mountain when I read it years ago. Hans Castorp, the ordinary young German, is shown a variety of paths...

Gpfr wrote: " I'm reading Trio, William Boyd. Another candidate for books about film-making that we were thinking about. So far so good ..."

An earlier novel of his, The New Confessions, also deals with film-makers - maybe it's a recurring theme with him?

I've only read two so far, the other being his first, A Good Man in Africa. I liked them both, especially The New Confessions, but haven't yet decided what to try next. But it'll probably be something from the 90s, while I'm reading other things from that decade.

Robert wrote: "
I enjoyed The Magic Mountain when I read it years ago. Hans Castorp, the ordinary young German, is shown a variety of paths."

I liked that one too. Looking forward to trying the new translation that came out a few years ago as it's reputed to be more accurate than the one I read more than twenty years back, which was I believe the only English version available until this new one.

Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Musil... I thought his Man Without Qualities was great, even in its unfinished state."

Tried to read it many years ago, but didn't get very far... ..."

i was a mega Mann fan in my early 20s but The Magic Mountain was the most dissapointing of his novels for me, which stopped me reading any of his later novels, though i enjoyed his non-fiction that NYRB re-published about WW1. Controversial and thought provoking, like so many in 1914 he was swept along on the tide of war. Musil was another who revelled in that moment, feeling the collective joy of being a German.

As far as I remember it, I was nonplussed by The Magic Mountain. I quite enjoyed the writing despite the desperately tedious passages but ended up not knowing what I was supposed to think.

The Thomas Mann I thought was utterly brilliant was Lotte in Weimar, the reimagining of a love affair from Goethe’s youth.

Logger24 wrote: "As far as I remember it, I was nonplussed by The Magic Mountain. I quite enjoyed the writing despite the desperately tedious passages but ended up not knowing what I was supposed to think.

The Tho..."

I very much want to tackle The Magic Mountain, but last stab at Thomas Mann, Doctor Faustus, really thrust him down the pile in terms of priority.

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its mix of reflective, thoughtful..."


Zorba The Greek was my entry point to Kazantzakis, and it was the right one to hook me in. He writes with a verve and an exuberance that is contagious, like a slightly less enamoured Henry Miller with a giving sense of humor. Even The Last Temptation of Christ had a certain brio that you wouldn't think the dying thoughts of the crucified could contain. That beinf said, Last Temptation wouldn't be the entry point that I'd reccomend.

Has anybody read Kazantakis' The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel?

I picked it up at a book sale a few years ago, but in my (so far) only try at reading it, did not get very far.

Paul wrote: "Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its mix of reflec..."

i'd probably encourage The Fratricides as an entry point, it is a novel of the Greek civil war, set in the North West region known as the Epirus(where Janina is the main city)

Bill wrote: "Has anybody read Kazantakis' The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel?

I picked it up at a book sale a few years ago, but in my (so far) only try at reading it, did not get very far."

sounds interesting, i will make a note of it

The TLS have 4 pages on Kafka and the new translations of his diary and short stories, plus The Trial. While my love for Kafka has waned(he was a staple of my early 20s), i still regard him as a great writer and The Castle remains one of my favourite novels to this day

On the subject of another Czech, the TLS mentioned some re-published essays by Milan Kundera(translated from French) on central europe and i am about to start reading A Kidnapped West which includes 4 essays and was released in 2023

Bill wrote: "Has anybody read Kazantakis' The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel?

I picked it up at a book sale a few years ago, but in my (so far) only try at reading it, did not get very far."

I too gave up quite early on that one but still think I'll try again some time. I can recall exactly what it was that put me off: it was the introduction of a kind of racial theme - not racist, as I understand these terms, but the concept of Northern races vs Southern or Mediterranean, with the usual clichéd attributes assigned to each and a sense of inferiority on the part of the latter. This was not part of Homer's world, as I see it, but I suppose that why it's "A Modern Sequel".

As I say, I'll give it another go one of these days, this time prepared beforehand not to let my annoyance with this kind of thinking stop me: possibly I quit too early to see where Kazantzakis was going with it.

Bill wrote: "Has anybody read Kazantakis' The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel?

I picked it up at a book sale a few years ago, but in my (so far) only try at reading it, did not get very far."

I have it on my bookshelf, but its dimensions have proven menacing up 'til now

AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis and i love its ..."

I'll tip my hat in to the room, and recommend 'The Fratricides' as well, it is illuminating and yet really quite sad how idealogical and political allegiances can fracture families, and communities, in War...

Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "After a warm, pleasent Sunday, we have had a somewhat subdued but not cool Monday-around 19c

I have started Zorba the Greek by Kazantzakis an..."

The Greek Civil War was a vicious one, marking Greek society for another 20-30 years after

I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme. The exhibition is very well set up: a brief historical context (eg the Franco-Prussian war 1870), then works from their 1st separate exhibition and from the official Salon of that year (showing, among other things, that not all the artists in the independent exhibition were innovators and not all the works in the Salon were works à la facture aboutie, with a perfect finish). Painting modern life, painting in the open air, a chronology of the 8 impressionist exhibitions ...

We also saw an exhibition by a contemporary artist, Nathanaëlle Herbelin. Influenced by the Nabis, in subject matter rather than style, her paintings are shown with works by Bonnard, Vuillard and Vallotton. I'll put one in Photos.

I was struck by the title of this exhibition Être ici est une splendeur as this is the title of a book by Marie Darrieussecq (English title: Being Here Is Everything). The book is about the life of the painter Paula Modersohn-Becker, whose work I love, and the title is a quotation from Rilke with whom she was friends. The connection here is that Modersohn-Becker painted herself nude and pregnant (although she wasn't actually pregnant) and Herbelin painted herself nude and pregnant while wanting to become pregnant and having been told it would be difficult. She had been given the book by her partner and "was blown away". And so Être ici est une splendeur is the title of her painting.

Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme. The exhibition is very well set up: a brief historical context (eg the Franco-Prussian war 1870), then works from..."

I'm envious!

In the book I just finished, So Much Blue, the artist narrator visits a museum and sees 60 pictures of cows by Eugène Boudin, who (I have just found out) encouraged Monet to switch from caricatures to landscapes. Boudin was best known for his seascapes, so I was surprised by this reference to '60 cows', but a check of his works in Wikipedia confirmed that they do exist, even if atypical of his work.

The narrator complains that he can't tell the difference, and says something like 'even another cow would not be able to tell them apart'. We now know this is not true, since cows have unique markings and the herd can distinguish between them. This, I thought, was a slightly false note in an otherwise brilliant book - I'd expect an artist to have eyesight at least as good as your typical cow!

I understand that Thomas Mann was a (sort of) modernist, and as in general I can't read modernist writers (literally - I get bored and give up) it's unlikely that I'll attempt anything by him any time soon. However, I suspect that the term is rather vague and I'm sure there are exceptions - Jean Rhys is listed as a 'modernist' in Wikipedia, and I like her writing very much. So, who knows?

I saw the film 'Zorba the Greek' soon after it was released, and liked it a great deal back then... but I haven't read any of the books.

As for tales set in the Greek civil war - I was very impressed by two novels by Stratis Haviaras about the German occupation and its aftermath: When the Tree Sings and The Heroic Age

On inadvertent bonus of reading Politics and Literature by Robert Musil is the focus on the Austrian political scene in 1933-34, the era before the Anchluss.

Musil was facing hard times, his individualistic thinking and philosophical writing did not fit in with the volkisch atmosphere of Austro-Fascism. This was an attempt by Chancellor Dolfuss and then Chancellor Schusnigg to stave off a German style Nazi government and embrace a more Italian approach. Musil can see it is failing as the underground Nazi movement gains ground, indeed many of the Austro-Fascists were already pro-Nazi and had links with the Nazi party

He rails against the writers who are celebrated by this new Austrian outlook, many of them inferior to him but winning prizes and having cultural influence. Suicide is not far from his thiughts, the German market is gone, the Austrian one is tenuous....

Some of the pro-Austro-fascist authors were names i had never heard of Wilgdans,Zernatto, Ortner, Perkonig, Jelusich. I am going to look them up now

scarletnoir wrote: "I understand that Thomas Mann was a (sort of) modernist, and as in general I can't read modernist writers (literally - I get bored and give up) it's unlikely that I'll attempt anything by him any t..."

I think Scarlet that it is because you are a fan of a good story with a clear narrative drive, which Rhys certainly delivers on, Mann has the narrative, but at least The Magic Mountain is a bit of a slog and I have not been tempted back again. But I am a fan of quite a lot of poetry, and the modernist stuff is refreshing on the whole, and seems to suit the abbreviated nature of cooking up a word salad to feast on. It seems that if you cut down on the amount of narrative linking, the ideas and the images get to rub up against each other in more concentrated way and, at least to me, this sparks a much more intense reading experience. T S Eliot is one of my favourites for this.

Tam wrote: "But I am a fan of quite a lot of poetry, and the modernist stuff is refreshing on the whole..."

I rarely read poetry in any style, so I don't see myself starting with modernist poetry! I can and often do like and admire prose writing which seems 'poetic', though... I don't claim that makes sense, but it's the way it is... but I still like a story, underlying it all.

i really enjoyed the coverage of the D Day commemorations from France, especially the pro-EU section and the singing of the EU anthemn, born out of the conflict, bringing Germany and France together

Macron spoke very well, the BBC had no translation overdub, but that was no problem, my french coped fine and the weather looked superb, even if it was cool for June

I visited those beaches as a teenager with family in 1990, it was not quite as sunny or calm but it was great to see...

Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme. The exhibition is very well set up: a brief historical context (eg the Franco-Prussian war 1870), then works from..."

Sounds charming.

Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme. The exhibition is very well set up: a brief historical context (eg the Franco-Prussian war 1870), then works from..."

I would love to have gone to the exhibition, I am planning on a visit to the Tate for https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate... sometime soon. I am a fan of 'Der Blaue Reiter ' especially Franz Marc, and Paul Klee. I saw an exhibition at the Hayward, many years ago, on the German expressionists which opened up a new world to me. I think it was the moment that I became a fan of Modernism as I could understand how theories of perception, and representation evolved over time and place, and the forces/thinking behind these new movements.

I am reading 'Inner Vision' at the moment. An exploration of Art and the Brain, by Semir Zeki. Its an interesting read but I'm not sure about one of his suppositions. that the visual development in humans is based on the brain sorting out, and excluding visual information that is not useful, and spends its time looking at past memories of similar visual imagery in order to compare and learn/identify similarity, I suppose in order to categorise them for future use. He is a Professor of neurobiology. I can see why he has selected particular artists to illustrate his theories. My own feeling, as a lapsed artist of sorts, is that the brain is busy putting new stuff together in creative ways, rather than excluding stuff...? I need a neuroscientist to debate this with I guess. He seems quite determined to hang on to his theory, so I guess he is looking for suitable places in his mind to categorise his visual experiences, but maybe that is because of his experience, and training, as a scientist, rather than an artist? Anyone else here have any thoughts on this perhaps?

I replied to frustrated artist on the last thread, but got distracted and it disappeared before I could post it, and then I forgot what the point was, of what I had been writing about!... I think perhaps I have been putting away 'stuff' in mis-labeled cupboards, in my brain, at least!...

On a totally separate point I have been reading an autobiography of Werner Herzog who I thought I was a bit of a fan of. But the more I read, the more uncertain I become as to what actually drives him. he seems more 'show-man' than anything else. And I found myself distrusting some of his accounts somehow. In my minds eye, have linked him to the 'Body Plastination' chap, Gunter von Hagens, who was very much about dramatising, and show-manship!... Herzog has, he says, a theory that growing up in leder-hosen leaves a mark on young Austrians of a certain age. Perhaps that's the link!... ? she said... somewhat tongue in cheek... Though I now see that Hagens isn't Austrian, but they both had very uncertain and somewhat deprived experiences at an early age, maybe that is what 'makes all the difference'?

Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we are all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there? I usually avoid both categories. The one I do rate in Claire Tomlin's one on Mary Wollstonecraft, so in my, very limited experience, I'm going for the biography as being, generally, more reliable.

Tam wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme."
I would love to have gone to the exhibition..."

It's really interesting. I wonder if some people might go to it and be disappointed, if they haven't really thought about the theme. I imagine some might go expecting all impressionists ...

There was a group of Japanese? / Chinese? who were galloped round the show. They passed us in the last room, where they were herded in front of one painting, then to the Bal du Moulin de la Galette, 2 or 3 minutes each, then out.

The Tate exhibition looks good.

Tam wrote: "Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we all all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there?"

I think that some degree of unreliability is generally baked into the autobiography / memoir genre. That said, all the reviews I've read of Herzog's Every Man for Himself and God Against All: A Memoir have emphasized that much of it is apparently fabricated.

Maybe because I'm not in the medical field myself, but I never find neurological explanations of artistic activity persuasive. After all, all intellection takes place in the brain, so it's all fundamentally neurological. To take an example I've mentioned before, I doubt that the complementary fortunes of two painters like Bouguereau and Monet have shifted over time because there was some widespread change in the human brain.

Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we all all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there?"


I think that some degree of unreliability is generally baked into the autobiography / memoir genre. That said, all the reviews I've read of Herzog's Every Man for Himself and God Against All: A Memoir have emphasized that much of it is apparently fabricated."

Yes, from what I've seen or heard of Werzog I would not expect that his autobiography was ever meant to be taken seriously as a factual account of his history. I imagine it's a bit of performance art and Herzog would have felt free to invent as needed in order to create whatever effect he was looking for at the moment.

Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we all all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there?"

I think that some degree of unreliability is ge..."

But there is a change (in the brain?) when there are changes in the ocular delivery system to the brain. Monet suffered badly from cataracts, which changed the way he painted towards the end of his life, (i.e. the water lilies), surely? What art stands the test of time is another matter, and some artists go in and out of fashion, and then there is the question of how much art is valued because a bunch of 'experts' have used their influential power to tell people what they should be valuing, as 'great' art... And yes everything is neurological, in the mind, but that just leads to more interesting questions such as why are humans so susceptible to both self-deception, and deception? There must be some kind of benefit that can be accrued from this? It's not just material though, some of the greatest deceptions have been around questions of love, or faith etc.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKwnkk4L/downloa...

Theo van Doesburg Composition III, 'The Cow' (the devolution of a cow!) 1918

Tam wrote: "But there is a change (in the brain?) when there are changes in the ocular delivery system to the brain. Monet suffered badly from cataracts, which changed the way he painted towards the end of his life, (i.e. the water lilies), surely? What art stands the test of time is another matter, and some artists go in and out of fashion, and then there is the question of how much art is valued because a bunch of 'experts' have used their influential power to tell people what they should be valuing, as 'great' art."

Is the book you're reading, Inner Vision: An Exploration of Art and the Brain, about how artists see to create art or how the viewer experiences art? From the Goodreads description, I thought the latter:

What is it that makes a work of art appear to us as beautiful? How do external form and internal perception coalesce to create the distinctive aesthetic pleasures we look to find in the visual arts?

Does the book address how tastemakers - the 'experts' - influence what "distinctive aesthetic pleasures" people experience in works of art?

Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "But there is a change (in the brain?) when there are changes in the ocular delivery system to the brain. Monet suffered badly from cataracts, which changed the way he painted towards th..."

Yes that is the book, sorry I should have posted the 'visual' book info up, for clarity. He does not address how art critics effect how art is perceived by the general public, as yet, but I am only about just over a third of the way through it though. Which is about the same amount for Herzog's autobiography, before it began to lack some sort of credibility, at least to me, though I started the Herzog quite a lot longer, ago... I find myself questioning as to whether I am just getting more critical, and less forgiving, as I get older? Currently 69!... Which is of course a different sort of perception, in itself... I hope you liked the disassembled cow!...

Tam wrote: "I hope you liked the disassembled cow!..."

It shows up very small on my screen. Here's a larger image:

I recall seeing this in some long ago classroom when the instructor was attempting to explain "abstraction", which the series of images seems ready-made to facilitate. Given that instructional utility, would these count as "didactic" art?

Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "I hope you liked the disassembled cow!..."

It shows up very small on my screen. Here's a larger image:

I recall seeing this in some long ago classroom when the instructor was attempti..."

I think it was just an artist working through an idea, when he first did the original version. I don't think that he is at all responsible for what other people have done with those images since then, and certainly not in the process of others teaching stuff from previous eras. So no, the didacticism does not belong to him... I wrote about American Abstractionism a long time ago, on my blog, in which the disassembled cow appears. It's far more political than you might, possibly, think.... https://jediperson.wordpress.com/2021...

Gpfr wrote: "Tam wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme."
I would love to have gone to the exhibition..."

It's really interesting. I wonder if ..."

I've heard about those Chinese tours. They race the tourists from place to place, and lead them only to Chinese restaurants.
In France, without getting to taste the food...

Berkley wrote: "Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we all all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there?"


I think that some degree of unrel..."

After my father was given the memoirs of Marshall Zhukov, he remarked to me that "Generals always write the same book. Everything they did was right. Zhukov is worse. Not only was everything he did right, everything the Communist Party did was right." He added that he'd only read one general's memoirs that admitted mistakes: "Field Marshal the Viscount Slim."

Robert wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Tam wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme."
I would love to have gone to the exhibition..."

It's really interesting...."

i had a very tedious experience at edinburgh castle with a chinse tour group. i was looking at a painting and suddenly was barged sideways and into a wall as a dozen chinese stampeded through and exited at speed into the next room. i got my revenge, in the narrow corridor in the next room, i slipped in front and proceeded to move very slowly and observed every nook and cranny, they were trying to force me but i was determined and they had to slow down for 10 mins!

Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "Are biographies more truthful that auto-biographies, as maybe we all all a bit prone to self-deception? Any thoughts on this out there?"


I think that some..."

an army friend of my parents(a Lt-Col) was a big fan of Slim, he probably goes down as the favourite soldiers soldier of WW2

AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Tam wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme."
I would love to have gone to the exhibition..."

It's real..."
Same for me as I was studying Munch’s Scream in Oslo and the group barged in front of me . I went and stood right in front of the painting to the furious glares of their guide.
Later I complained officially but was met with a shrug and ‘ what can we do.’ ..maybe limit access to groups - timed slots - offending groups banned??
They really spoiledmy visit to the gallery.

CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Tam wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I went to the musée d'Orsay yesterday to see Paris 1874. Inventer l'impressionisme."
I would love to have gone to the exhibition....."

well done for standing your ground CCC. i find the difference between japanese and chinese tourists is profound, japanese tourists are a lot more polite, respectful and always patient, the chinese are totally different. Of course until a decade ago, it was rare to see these large chinese groups