Read Women discussion

This is our thread for our July discussion of Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin. It won our poll to select a novel featuring a main character with a disability. Here's how Zevin describes T&T&T:

Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow is the story of a thirty-year friendship and artistic collaboration. It’s the story of Sam Masur and Sadie Green, two brilliant people, who have a romance of the mind, if not the body. It’s about how rewarding and tender and volatile creative collaboration can be, and what it feels like to truly share one’s work with someone. It’s about how difficult it is to connect even though we have ever increasing ways to do so, and the possibility of making meaningful connections in virtual spaces. It’s about why it’s worth it to continue loving people and making things in an imperfect and uncertain universe. And yes, it’s about video games. I think the essential conflict of the story is between the perfect worlds Sam and Sadie create, as video game designers, and the imperfect world they live in.

[from this Q&A https://thenerddaily.com/gabrielle-ze...]

Amerie's Book Club (7:21) review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_Ei...

John Green's 1 minute BookTok review: https://www.tiktok.com/@literallyjohn...

The Guardian's Review: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...

Finally, the NYT on how T&T&T became a surprise blockbuster. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/26/bo...

Gabrielle Zevin

Born in 1977 in NYC to a Korean mom and a dad of Ashkenazi Jewish, Russian, Lithuanian, and Polish ancestry. She's a Harvard grad (English major), living in LA with her partner. T&T&T is her 10th novel. Here are her tour dates! https://gabriellezevin.com/2024/05/24...

Access her website here: https://gabriellezevin.com/

Anita will lead our discussion. Let us know if you're planning to join. Share your opinions and reviews if you've already read it, too.

From Macbeth:

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Carol wrote: "From Macbeth: ..."

My favorite bit: "Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Gail W wrote: "Carol wrote: "From Macbeth: ..."

My favorite bit: "Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.""

This is one of the few passages my high school English teacher made us memorize and - while I can't claim to be able to trot it out on demand at this point - I love every line.

I started this book last night and was immediately captivated. Zevin's writing was enjoyable in The Storied Life of A.J. Fikry and Young Jane Young, but this novel is something completely different: eloquent and intentional, sophisticated and accessible.

For anyone concerned that having some interest in the video game theme is a requirement, it isn't. You can blow right past that framing and focus exclusively on characters if that's your wont.

#TeamSam

I did with this book what I do with every one of our books - read it first, read it fast, and then wait to write a review after everyone else has read it only to have reviews posted that are much more eloquent, and just think "yeah. that."

As much as I loved two other novels by Zevin, I fully expected not to like this, fearing it would be too "techy". And it started that way for me. And then it was okay; I recognized the kids. I recognized them in my two sons for their love of games for which I had neither the mindset nor the skill to play but that enthralled them - and their father. Atari, Nintendo. Me reading while my three "men" bonded over Mario Brothers, Zelda and numerous others.

So I nestled further in the chair and finished this in one sitting at 1 this morning. I was totally engrossed in the the relationships, even during the hard times. I loved their backstories. (view spoiler)[ I sobbed when Marx died. (hide spoiler)]. I fully appreciated the storyline and the memories that flooded back while I was reading it, even the sad ones. I am so glad I read this.

I haven’t read any of Zevin’s other books, and didn’t know her background, so thank you for sharing that info and your thoughts. I was also pretty quickly drawn in, and there’s so much going on within these first 50 pages.

I really liked when and how Sam and Sadie met. It felt very authentic. Kids can bond anywhere, huh? Even the way the relationship continues - while not ideal - also felt like an authentic path for Sadie. She’s just racking up those hours as points in her mind. My longest and best friendship started over a video game.

Two things that stood out to me so far:
Sam’s injury. He described his food as a meat sack and that’s horrifying.
Sadie’s second school project. The game that made the players complicit. It reminds me to be thankful of all the indie games we have access to nowadays. Dov’s description of games he doesn’t want made me laugh, pretty games with no purpose is something we see a bit of, but are enjoyable every now and then.

Does anyone else have initial thoughts on the story, characters, hospitals or video games?

I've just finished Part II, and they’ve finished Ichigo. I love their relationships, Sadie, Sam, and Marx. They are given such depth of character, and the glimpses of their backstories between our story make it a very easy read for me. I find it very engaging and I’m always eager to pick it back up.
Sadie and Dov’s relationship carries a lot of complexity and luggage, adding in this sudden revelation towards the end of part 2 makes it even more … questionable.
Sam’s ongoing issues with his foot - his disability - has somehow been relegated to the recesses of our minds, and yet a constant known variable throughout the story. I’m not sure how others feel about it, but since the theme is disability, I want to address how I find this important and special. Though he lives with his mobility limitations and pain daily, it hasn’t become his entire character. I think it’s a great representation of people who do live with those ‘unseen’ medical issues, and it also highlights that those in his life who care to notice, do. I appreciated his pov at the end of part 2 as well, where he reflects on his foot and mortality, since he doesn’t, or hasn’t, so much throughout the story.

I started this today and have finished Part I. Good character development with Sadie so far. And I like the rocky but strong friendship. I agree that the game Solution is intriguing, with Sam’s ideas for how to flesh it out also intriguing.

I'm still early on in Part II. I got distracted by a couple of shiny objects but expect to happily return to reading this novel this week. I also haven't had anything especially interesting to say about it, and agree with the insightfful comments posted so far.

Sadie and Dov's relationship bothered me, at the point where she says, sure I knew he was married. That's also Zevin taking away the excuse I would have otherwise given her, so she wants me as a reader to accept Sadie without covering for her or reject her - either one is an honest response. I liked Zevin for doing that. Making it as ugly as possible, and saying, now what? to the reader.

I've also really liked that Sam's disability is a fact but not a leading one - so far - not that there would have been anything wrong if it was a leading topic, but I like that T&T&T feels authentic to have him living his life as a teen and 20s age guy focused on his art, his career, his feelings, and taking his body pretty much for granted as-is.

I fear in an almost overwhelming distracting way for Marx, but that's because I was in my 20s when Dead Poets' Society came out and there's a whole generation of us who see a character in school with an overbearing parent or parents and become terrified for the plot to unfold.

Carol wrote: "I fear in an almost overwhelming distracting way for Marx, but that's because I was in my 20s when Dead Poets' Society came out and there's a whole generation of us who see a character in school with an overbearing parent or parents and become terrified for the plot to unfold…

I had almost thought his character was too under-developed so far, but am trusting (aka hoping) we will get more of him unfolding over the remainder of the book. However after reading your comment, I realize there have been a few hints subtly dropped, like Sadie’s reflection that his dad didn’t seem as overbearing or difficult as Marx had made him out to be, or maybe his early return after the internship that wasn’t what it should have been, that are now making me share in your anxiety.

I agree if Sam’s mobility had been a major characteristic, it wouldn’t be an issue, I hope I didn’t come off that way. I was simply appreciating an alternative take on disabled characters in writing. I’m also totally okay if other readers hate that his disability is under represented, as maybe some people might feel that way.

Susan wrote: "I started this today and have finished Part I. Good character development with Sadie so far. And I like the rocky but strong friendship. I agree that the game Solution is intriguing, with Sam’s ide..."

I was fascinated with Solution, too, and with how Sadie thought about it.

Slightly off-topic, T&T&T made it to #76 on the NYT, "The 100 Best Books of the 21st Century" list, which I found surprising in a very good way, given the company it's keeping there.

I am partway through Part III now. I think it’s interesting that neither Sam nor Sadie is entirely likeable (at least to me they’re not). Real people are complicated and so are these characters. Sadie’s relationship with Dov is obviously problematic. I have to admit that Sam isn’t my favourite. He strikes me as passive (stoic?) but also whiny in his inner thoughts. We’ve seen from the flash forward interview that he develops into a different kind of unpleasant-sounding person. I am also starting to worry about the storyline surrounding his foot. I hope this isn’t going to turn into misery porn, as I’m not a big fan of that.

There are times when I get a very faint hint of A Little Life here, generally in the relationships surrounding Sam. Like how Sadie and Marx take notice of him and try to be as accommodating as possible without imposing. So, your inkling of misery porn made me chuckle. However, I’ve just started Part 5 and I don’t think it has gotten close to misery porn so far.

I quickly devoured parts 3 and 4, and it took me in an emotional rollercoaster. There were highs and some lows, and I honestly needed to put the book down because I was getting quite frustrated at the lack of communication between Sadie and Sam. The way they alternate between being mad at each other is frustrating, and upon reflection a little annoying. However when I’m reading it, I love it and zoom through the pages. I’m super curious if there are/were secret highways in LA.

I think the emotional toll on the reader has to do with the structure of the book. The way we read one section from one POV, and are then given the alternative POV afterwards as we switch to a new Part. Especially part 2 and 3 from Sam and Sadie’s perspectives were frustrating. Again, I wish they would have just communicated. There’s a surprising lack of verbal communication between them about the things that matter, when their actions show how much they care for each other. The end of Part 4 left me a little surprised at Sam. (view spoiler)[ it had seemed crystal clear to me that he had no romantic feelings towards Sadie, even though he knew he loves her ‘terribly’ (hide spoiler)]

I read so much of this last night. I’m nearly done. It’s on track to be one of my favorite reads.

Susan wrote: "I am partway through Part III now. I think it’s interesting that neither Sam nor Sadie is entirely likeable (at least to me they’re not). Real people are complicated and so are these characters. Sa..."

I am around page 180 which I think is just a little bit into Part III now. I have trouble imagining exactly what's up with his foot. I've just gotten past his slipping, falling and ending up in the ER and Marx (go MARX!!) getting the doctors to tell him all the details (I was very happy to suspend disbelief that they'd disclose this to him since it was the only way that we the readers would know facts), and I think I get it, but golly I want to sign into Sam's patient portal and read everything : ) I think one of the things I like about Sam is that he doesn't seem to have much in the way of fear that his foot - a very visible disability for thieves and other unpleasant types - makes him vulnerable to attack or injury. I mean, I like him generally, but where I would be seeing shadows when walking alone at night, he isn't oblivious as much as just accepting that he'll handle whatever occurs. I admire that.

Dov never disappoints in his consistently obnoxious, entirely self-involved behavior. We all have at least one guy or woman we date that our friends are thinking, "WHAT IS SHE THINKING?" but I just keep yelling into my bedroom, What is Sadie thinking? She doesn't seem that attracted to him, she doesn't seem to enjoy his company even, and then the boundary issues of the handcuffs etc. that she says she's not into, but oh well. She's a woman who seems to have a lot of self-confidence except... well... Dov. I will be so glad when she gets settled in California, not that planes, text and funds mean that that's necessarily the end of his presence.

I think I'm having a little trouble with the size of this book in a way you all have not. I read and read and read Saturday and I'm "only" at 180 and it just feels like, no matter how much I enjoy it in the moment, I'm wanting it to get a move on and be less incremental. I have no desire to skim it, but would not have minded a more aggressive editor.

Haha, sorry this book doesn’t seem to be moving for you Carol! I’m having the same problem with our other group read though. I found this one a super quick read when I broke it up by sections. Hopefully it hooks you in and you can finish. There were a couple surprise moments that kept me engaged, almost like a show that insists on ending with cliffhangers. Again, in retrospect slightly annoying, but the trope worked. I loved reading this book while I was reading it, if that makes sense.

I didn't want to post anything negative until late in the month, so am circling back now. I was disappointed in this one. I never bought Sadie as a character, not a bit, and the fact that she showed zero character development over almost - was it 450 pages? - is one of my key annoyances. There's a line Sam utters when he's trying to figure out if Marx and Sadie are involved, "I know what Sadie looks like when she's in love and ... " and I sat up in bed and said, "WHAT? When has Sadie been in love? No, Sam, you don't know what she looks like when she's in love." Unless. Is Zevin suggesting that Sadie was in love with Dov? I saw nothing in the text from which I could have reached that conclusion. In fact nothing at all about her relationship with Dov, including the late in the book reunion dinner in California, made sense to me - and I would have been open to any explanation that was consistent. (we get involved and stay involved for all sorts of reasons - some of them about our self-esteem, our boredom, our inertia, our dreams, resources, proprinquity, etc. - pick any one or combo but stick to it).

Two segments I thought Zevin did really well - the shooting at the office and the pioneer gaming segment. Either could have felt staged, inauthentic, too violent, to drawn out, and wrt the pioneers content - even boring, in other hands. But she handled both very different but also potentially difficult writing assignments impeccably.

That aside, though, if I had a physical copy I might have dented the wall when I finished. It was too, too long, and when the Times 100 Best Books of the 2000s was published and it was on it, my eyes rolled up so high they almost got stuck. On the other hand, I'm glad I read T&T&T with us, and really appreciated everyone's insights along the way.