Ersatz TLS discussion

Hello, everyone

Another month nearly over ...

Happy reading to all!

Thanks for starting the new thread, Gpfr.

I meant to respond to Logger24's post about Herodotus in the last thread:

I think you’re experiencing the essence of Herodotus. He absorbs every kind of information that comes to hand, reliable or questionable, and fashions out of it what looks like a smorgasbord but is actually a pre-planned feast of many courses, some more digestible than others starting with the early expansion of the Persian empire and culminating in their utter defeat by the Greeks. Quite a performance when you consider that he did not himself divide it into books or chapters or even sentences, and let it all stream out as a single long exposition...

For me, Herodotus's history represents a tremendous leap forward in human thought: if you look at the various sorts of histories written up to that point, they were little more than lists of victories won and monuments built or they were like Chronicles in the Bible: completely one-sided, self-serving accounts that showed zero interest in other peoples, let alone the POV of the enemy, their history, motives, etc. And they usually consisted of an unreflecting acceptance of whatever version of events had become dominant, which was almost always the one that flattered the writer's own nation.

The very idea of examining different versions or accounts of the same events, describing them, admitting it was not always possible to know which was most accurate; and of delving deep into the histories and cultures of other peoples, including the enemy: to me these constitute an incredible advance in the concept of history and I would even go so far as to say in human conceptual thought in general.

Of course Herodotus didn't get everything right: he was too credulous in some cases (and too sceptical in others), he wasn't absolutely unbiased (but neither are most modern historians, much as they would claim otherwise); and we don't know what predecessors there might have been whose works have been lost. But to me, compared with what we can see of the kind of history there was before, his book seems like one of the greatest intellectual achievements of all time.

I also find it's a great read - entertaining, exciting, fascinating, thought-provoking, memorable characters, an epic story. Even if it were purely fiction I think it would be one of my favourite books. But that's more a matter of personal taste - I can certainly see why it wouldn't necessarily appeal in the same way to other readers.

Mercury rising in the shires but my house is nice and cool, at 10am

Knackered after three days of neices and nephews.....but looking foward to some reading today before i go back into the fray tommorow

Well I'm glad Herodotus has his fans on here. I do value some of his observations and quotes. It's maybe that I'm just not that keen on the mores and values of those particular times. It's not that easy to dispose of him however. I took 'The Histories' back to the church book swap, without telling Dave. Anyway low and behold it appears again next day on the dining table, he had retrieved it from probable oblivion in the overcrowded book shelves... to read it himself, he says.

I consulted the sprog, being an historian, and he tells me that, amongst most historians, Thucydides is considered the better historian, I think because he had a much more scientific approach perhaps, with a lot of scepticism about the role of devine intervention?

Hell is apparently defined in the Bible as the 'outer darkness' which is only defined by 'the sound of weeping and gnashing of teeth'. I don't know much about the Norse Hel, but I think that the word stands for cave or cavern? I think Hades is perhaps a more civilised place as it seemed to be quite easy to negotiate with its ruler, and he seems to have, historically, stuck to his word when agreement was reached. Hence the sadness of the tragedy, when Orpheus looks back to see if Eurydice is actually following him. The painting I used for this moment, in my 'Book of Hours' was, well it's only part of the painting, as to me its much better without Eurydice floundering in the sea behind him, is this one https://i.postimg.cc/BQcgvQjC/images-... by Michael Richard Putz

Berkley wrote: "Thanks for starting the new thread, Gpfr."

Thanks from me too, GP.

I meant to respond to Logger24's post about Herodotus in the last thread...

For me, Herodotus's history represents a tremendous leap forward in human thought: ..."

You do a much better job than I did of describing Herodotus’ achievement. I was hoping to say just enough to encourage Tam not to abandon him without another try. The biggest surprise for me was how, in addition of course to all the stories, he considered matters from the point of view of the enemy, in a fair-minded way.

Re: Edmund Wilson

Am about to start his collection of 1940s diary entries and notes entitled The Forties

Tam wrote: "I consulted the sprog, being an historian, and he tells me that, amongst most historians, Thucydides is considered the better historian, I think because he had a much more scientific approach perhaps, with a lot of scepticism about the role of devine intervention?"

I'm strictly an amateur, reading for pleasure, but yes, I think most people would agree that Thucydides takes a another step forward from Herodotus, advancing further from the conceptual breakthrough made by the older writer. His history writing definitely has a different tone to Herodotus - drier, more analytic, less of a story-teller. Of course he was also dealing with events much more recent than most of what's covered by Herodotus's vast work and more focused in time and space. Still a great read, though.

The other Greek historian I like very much is Polybius, though I've read only the Penguin abridgement of his work. Though he isn't usually rated as highly as Thucydides, I think he's a worthy successor and much more interesting on some aspects of early Roman history than Roman historians like Livy - e.g. the war with Hannibal.

Thanks again for the thread G. Plodding a little through

Have enjoyed his series, but this is in serious need of some editing. Premise is that a tv company is investigating miscarriages of justice in respect of two murders that took place decades go. And Skelgill and his team are conducting their hush hush investigation at the same time. The author is a bit fond of using "erudite" words which seem a little exhibitiony in a crime novel.

100 page cut would not come amiss.

Reading going a bit slowly while dipping in and out of the Olympic viewing.

Just thought I'd mention to Logger that all your past e-mails have vanished from my e-mail. I think it was when the glitch happened where you had to change your ID to the current Logger24. It's not that I have ignored you!... Of course you might have had enough of sending out e-mails to me, but in case it was in error I thought I would let you know... Tam

Any Ivy Compton-Burnett readers here?

With Manservant and Maidservant I just returned to my project of reading all her novels in chronological order after a long pause. In the introduction to the Oxford edition, Penelope Lively, gives a description of just about every I C-B novel:

The quintessential Compton-Burnett scene is a meal-time – most likely breakfast or tea – at which the members of the family, with delicate savagery, perform the daily ritual of verbal attack and counter-attack and establish for the reader the power structure of the household. The family will probably include two or three generations, servants engaged in prurient participation, and its composition will embrace situations of inherent unease such as second marriages, step-children, penniless resident dependants and precarious financial circumstances. The stage thus set, the drama unfolds, and may well include actual as well as emotional violence, implications of adultery, homosexuality and incest, all taking place off-stage and recounted by means of the formal and startling dialogue which is the crux of Ivy Compton-Burnett’s literary style.

She also notes what made this particular novel, for me, a not-quite-optimal I C-B experience:

… it is, by Compton-Burnett standards, positively discursive. She allows herself an unusual amount of authorial intrusion and comment …

The "authorial intrusions" are not direct addresses from author to reader, as with Fielding for instance, but rather brief descriptions of characters' thoughts or intentions. These are standard features of most novels, but the trajectory of I C-B's art from Pastors and Masters forward has seemed to me to be to pare away such conventions and give the reader this information purely through dialogue and terse, objective descriptions of behavior or expression.

Bill wrote: "Any Ivy Compton-Burnett readers here?

With Manservant and Maidservant I just returned to my project of reading all her novels in chronological order after a long paus..."

I have read several of her novels, but so long ago I cant recall the details of them, but I did read a history of her particular family, and remember that, from a similar amount of time ago, quite clearly. She was one of twelve children, to a doctor led family, of which half the offspring were with the second wife, after the first wife died. Rich territory for mining family dynamics. I seem to remember that none of the 12 children had any offspring. The most 'normal' seeming member of the family died in army service, in WWI... I sort of see her in a similar light, to Mary Wesley of 'The Camomile Lawn' fame, though Mary was much later, and didn't start writing until she was in her 70's!... Still for those who like family dramas she is an interesting writer of her own particular time. I would sort of put Elizabeth Taylor in a similar category, of minute astute observation, of family relationships and dynamics.

Uncertain Glory by Joan Sales continues to enthrall me, i have reached the half way stage in this 450 odd page novel.

The narrative has shifted in part one from the parched, backwards regions of Aragon which formed the frontlines of the front in 1937 and has shifted to Barcelona.

The change is significant, a bustling metropolis, culture and the centre of Catalan independence. However the harfdships are significant, food is rationed, the populace is divided in many ways(the narrator in part two laments that in the 1931 all catalans "were as one unlike in 1936). The role of propaganda is given a part in the novel and the violence that followed the declaration of war.

The style is reminiscent of the best european literature but does lack a comprehensive glossary or footnotes. I know a lot about the civil war so havent found anything that i didnt know about or had heard of so far but a newcomer to the war may lose themsleves at stages

Tam wrote: "Just thought I'd mention to Logger that all your past e-mails have vanished from my e-mail. I think it was when the glitch happened where you had to change your ID to the current Logger24...."

It never occurred to me that that would happen when I cancelled my old account. I see now that it carried away everything, including yours to me. I’ll send you a test email under my new name. It might require a bit of set-up.

Logger24 wrote: "Tam wrote: "Just thought I'd mention to Logger that all your past e-mails have vanished from my e-mail. I think it was when the glitch happened where you had to change your ID to the current Logger..."

Well I am truly pleased that you would still like to be in contact with me. I felt a bit bereft when I did not get any comments from you, so you are valued, at least to me. I sent my, and your comments, on Herodotus, on to the historian sprog. He replied with 'so Herodotus was the first Modernist then'! I had to laugh somehow...

My morning walk before it got too hot.

Bill wrote: "Any Ivy Compton-Burnett readers here?

With Manservant and Maidservant I just returned to my project of reading all her novels in chronological order after a long paus..."

I've read three of her books: Pastors and Masters, A Heritage and Its History, and, most recently, this one, Manservant and Maidservant. and have liked each of them. There have been fairly long gaps in between so perhaps that can be my excuse for not noticing an enormous difference in her style but I did find there was more humour in this one than in A Heritage and Its History, which I had read just over a year previously.

Pastors and Masters I read over ten years ago and no longer recall as well as those other two. I plan to read more of hers in the near future - probably sticking to her later period for now, the 50s and early 60s. I already have a copy of A Father and His Fate so will probably try that next - unless there are any recommendations, for or against?

BTW, getting back to Herodotus, I imagine that most experts in the field would find my comments on his writings somewhat overblown, so I should make it clear that these are just my own feelings as a general reader, and do not necessarily reflect the scholarly consensus (not that I have any clear idea of what that is right now).

Berkley wrote: "I've read three of her books: Pastors and Masters, A Heritage and Its History, and, most recently, this one, Manservant and Maidservant. and have liked each of them. There have been fairly long gaps in between so perhaps that can be my excuse for not noticing an enormous difference in her style but I did find there was more humour in this one than in A Heritage and Its History, which I had read just over a year previously."

I haven't yet reached A Heritage and Its History, one of her later novels. I didn't mean to imply any major change in her style: it's pretty consistent across novels. But for someone reading them all in order, very small changes in approach seem significant. I would not expect the change from her earlier books that I (and Lively) noted in Manservant would draw any notice from an occasional reader.

I note that Lively made the interesting observation that a running theme in this 1947 novel - the coldness of the house and the parsimony of its master concerning the use of coal - might be tied to British postwar austerity. I think Compton-Burnett fans, at least I speak for myself, are also keen on trying to sense any allusions in the novels to conditions or events at the time of their writing, since the actual time frame seems always to lie somewhere between roughly 1890 and 1910.

Not a strong recommendation, since I think all the novels I've read are very good, but A House and Its Head has been my favorite so far.

Thanks, Tam. I've got a message ready to send you but I think you have to respond to my "friend" request first - the old one disappeared along with everything else.

Bill wrote: "Not a strong recommendation, since I think all the novels I've read are very good, but A House and Its Head has been my favorite so far."

I do have a copy of that one so perhaps I'll make that my next Compton-Burnett.

I'm off to the hospital to get a new knee. I just got a copy of Doris Kearns Goodwin's The Bully Pulpit in the mail, and am taking it with me. Good health to all. Will be back, depending.

Robert wrote: "I'm off to the hospital to get a new knee. "

I hope all goes well, Robert!

Robert wrote: "I'm off to the hospital to get a new knee. I just got a copy of Doris Kearns Goodwin's The Bully Pulpit in the mail, and am taking it with me. Good health to all. Will be back, depending."

Hope your new knee is as successful as my new hip Robert. Do your exercises! Good luck.

Robert wrote: "I'm off to the hospital to get a new knee..."

Good luck from me too. It's amazing these ops are now more or less routine. A friend here who just had a knee done was up and walking after one day, abandoned the cane after the second day, and hopes to get back to his golf.

Robert wrote: "I'm off to the hospital to get a new knee. I just got a copy of Doris Kearns Goodwin's The Bully Pulpit in the mail, and am taking it with me. Good health to all. Will be back, depending."

Best wishes on the operation. Picking the right book for occasions of this sort usually leaves me dithering between several choices up until the last minute.

Logger24 wrote: "Thanks, Tam. I've got a message ready to send you but I think you have to respond to my "friend" request first - the old one disappeared along with everything else."

I have sent you a friend request. Hopefully it will make its way through to you. They do seem to have wiped your old slate exceptionally clean!...

Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction, scarlet mentioned a similar situation related to Percival Everett on the G

I would have thought a new-ish translation of a catalan classic about the Spanish Civil War would be of interest. I expected no response on the Guardian of course!

AB76 wrote: "Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction, scarlet mentioned a similar situation related to Percival Everett on the G..."

Maybe no comment, but always read with interest, AB.

Logger24 wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction, scarlet mentioned a similar situation related to Percival Everett on the G..."

Maybe no comment, but always read with interest, AB."

Same here.

AB76 wrote: "Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction, scarlet mentioned a similar situation related to Percival Everett on the G

I would have thought a new-ish translation of a cat..."

Well you have inspired me to add some Catalan authors on to my TBR pile, as to which ones it will be down to which I can get hold of for my trip there in September

Berkley wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction..."

Maybe no comment, but always read with interest, AB."

Same here...."

I'll 'third' that. A lot of comments receive no response, but it doesn't mean lack of interest. No facility for upticks here, unlike on The G, where one can signal approval even if one has nothing particular to say.

What I was going to say, concerning Spain and Franco, is that a film, which I'll write about in the films topic, Sobre todo de noche , concerns an issue I hadn't been aware of. From the late 1930s to the 1980s, babies were taken at birth from their mothers (who would be a "bad political influence"), and placed with families who supported Franco's regime.

a state scandal, revealed in 2010 in a documentary, The Stolen Children of Francoism, broadcast on Spanish television in 2010. Between 1940 and the 1980s, an estimated 300,000 children were stolen in Spain.

This massive baby-snatching operation, inspired by the theories of Antonio Vallejo-Nájera, a Francoist psychiatrist, was carried out to keep children away from their Republican mothers, in order to ‘eradicate’ the ‘Marxist genes’ in newborns. After Franco's death, the kidnappings continued, with the same accomplices in hospitals and administrations, and for financial reasons. (from a review of the film, France Info)

Of course we know about this in Argentina, but I didn't remember about it in Spain.

The reason why I got a kindle:


Tom Gauld

Gpfr wrote: "The reason why I got a kindle:


Tom Gauld"

Gpfr wrote: "The reason why I got a kindle:


Tom Gauld"

🤣

Gpfr wrote: "The reason why I got a kindle:


Tom Gauld"

That's pretty much perfect.

I'll be away for 2 weeks in August and still haven't decided which or how many books I'll need to bring with me. I probably could have had half of them read by now if I hadn't wasted so much time thinking about it.

Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Amazing how the Joan Sales novel i am reading has gained no traction, scarlet mentioned a similar situation related to Percival Everett on the G

I would have thought a new-ish transla..."

thanks logger, berkley, tam!

With the current events in Iran, i am reminded of the many interesting books i have read about the country in the last decade, especially works by the late Michael Axworthy and another study of the late Shah

I did download the clerical studies of Khomieni on Islamic jurisprudence and his idea of a Muslim legal state but lost the app when i changed computers in 2017, so not sure of i will revisit it

For anyone interested in iranian literature Mohmoud Dowlatbadi is a key read, now in his 80s

AB76 wrote: "For anyone interested in iranian literature Mohmoud Dowlatbadi is a key read, now in his 80s .."

Thanks for the reminder, I have him on my to-read list but haven't found anything so far. I was thinking of trying The Colonel first.

Did other people know about the Spanish babies I wrote about above/below #32?

Gpfr wrote: "Did other people know about the Spanish babies I wrote about above/below #32?"

I did not, and the mindset behind these crimes and the sheer scale of it, the numbers involved, are both shocking.

I've never read any histories of the Spanish Civil War and thus don't know much about it. Whatever vague impressions I've picked up along the way have come mostly from fiction I've read that happened to refer to it in one way or another. Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls was likely my first encounter.

Gpfr wrote: "Did other people know about the Spanish babies I wrote about above/below #32?"

I knew about it all up and down South America, but I hadn't heard of it in Spain

Paul wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Did other people know about the Spanish babies I wrote about above/below #32?"

I knew about it all up and down South America, but I hadn't heard of it in Spain"

For someone like me, a Canadian, the first thing that cmes to mind is our similar crimes against First Nations (indigenous) children and their parents. It's something we as a country have only begun to acknowledge in recent years - when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s I never heard a thing about it.

Berkley wrote: "Paul wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Did other people know about the Spanish babies I wrote about above/below #32?"

I knew about it all up and down South America, but I hadn't heard of it in Spain"

For someone like me, a Canadian, the first thing that cmes to mind is our similar crimes against First Nations (indigenous) children and their parents...."

In the films and series thread I wrote about Little Bird, a Canadian series on this subject. Ruby had wrtten about it earlier in the year. If you do a search, you can see our posts.

With all the talk on here about Spanish history, and identity, I thought there might be one or two here, who might be interested in my latest blog, written as a sort of response by me, to the current 'Olympics' on show in Paris, which is set, partially, on the same site as the 1937 'World fair'. A veritable slice of history!... - Modernism - Left or Right?

Did Modernism reflect or refute the changing socio-political climate of the interwar period, in a rising ‘Fascist’ era? https://jediperson.wordpress.com/2024...

I'd be interested in any comments if anyone feels like making any.

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "For anyone interested in iranian literature Mohmoud Dowlatbadi is a key read, now in his 80s .."

Thanks for the reminder, I have him on my to-read list but haven't found anything so f..."

deffo start with that novel, one of the best novels i have read in last 10 years and it sticks with you afterwards. He has published a lot but only 2 or 3 have been translated.

Tam wrote: "the 1937 'World fair'..."

Some good photos here if people are interested:
https://lartnouveau.com/art_deco/expo...

Gpfr wrote: "Tam wrote: "the 1937 'World fair'..."

Some good photos here if people are interested:
https://lartnouveau.com/art_deco/expo..."

I am curious as to what the 'colonial' pavilions might have been like. GB didn't make much effort apparently, as they didn't think that it was that important!...

Gpfr wrote: "
In the films and series thread I wrote about Little Bird, a Canadian series on this subject. Ruby had wrtten about it earlier in the year. If you do a search, you can see our posts."

Yes, I made a note of that at the time. It's a show I'll look out for.

Mc Sweeney's: "I’d Be Lead Harpooner on the Pequod If It Wasn’t For These DEI Hires"

You know, I wouldn’t say this to just anyone. I’m not one to gam and gossip around the old grog-cooler. But I know you’re a good New England boy working your hardest to crew this vessel just like me, so let’s talk straight.

Be honest: Have you noticed the harpooners getting a little more… ethnic these past few voyages?

Look, I’ve got nothing against Queequeg. He’s a nice guy. And he can spy a whale-spout in a hurricane. And swim like a dolphin. And hit a nickel-sized moving target in open water in one steel stroke. But all those “biggee” tattoos? Tell me they don’t scream “diversity hire.”

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i...