On Paths Unknown discussion

Hello, everybody, once you have finished reading Benji and want to start commenting about the Quentin section of the novel, please do so in this thread.

I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on the subject of "THE SHADOW" in relation to Quinton ? Could someone please explain who is the protagonist "speaking/thinking", in italics? Is it Quinton?

The other theme that comes up repeatedly at the beginning of the chapter is the concept of TIME. I particularly like How Faulkner has juxtapositioned "Time", as offering both -"all hope and desire" as well as mockingly, being the instrument used to gain all of human experience. "reducto absurdum"* (- reduce "facts/life"to absurdity?
*A corruption of the Latin phrase "reductio ad absurdum". To me it reveals, not so much Quentin's father's cynicism in giving him grandfather's watch, but Faulkner's core brief that "man is Time's fool". cf.
"The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools".

Adjunctive info:
Faulkner’s exploration of time often carries that weight of inevitability, where characters seem trapped in cycles of history, memory, and identity, with little hope of escape. His cynicism about the human condition, particularly regarding the passage of time, adds a layer of tragic depth to his work. Chat Gpt

Thanks for that, Bonitaj - apologies, now it is I who have ran out of time again - will try to catch up tomorrow!

Bonitaj wrote: "I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on the subject of "THE SHADOW" in relation to Quinton ? ..."

I'm not at the Quentin section yet, but I think for a "shadow" theme, we can certainly look at the Shakespeare passage that Faulkner got his title from, and which certainly seems to point at what the novel is getting at, namely the fleeting nature of human life, which would also fit in nicely with the "passage of time" element? I do remember that the Quentin section starts with a clock and an obsessing over time.

Bonitaj wrote: " Could someone please explain who is the protagonist "speaking/thinking", in italics? Is it Quinton?
..."

I'm, not sure, Bonitaj, but as mentioned in the Benji section, Faulkner does like to mark changes in chronology with italics. However, I have read somewhere that there was quite a bit of controversy regarding Faulkner's publisher not liking how he used italics and changing them; and Faulkner got upset, but at some point he also admitted that his use of italics and other punctuation markers are not consistent.

Why, do you have more for us about shadows and the italics?
Also, re shadows, you might remember that shadows are mentioned a lot in the Benji section.

Bonitaj wrote: "The other theme that comes up repeatedly at the beginning of the chapter is the concept of TIME. I particularly like How Faulkner has juxtapositioned "Time", as offering both -"all hope and desire"..."

Yes, the passage of time and the futility and ephemeral nature of human life certainly seems to be one of Faulkner's themes. Thanks for that input. :)

Traveller wrote: "Bonitaj wrote: "I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on the subject of "THE SHADOW" in relation to Quinton ? ..."

I'm not at the Quentin section yet, but I think for a "shadow" theme, w..."
Yes, I'm only halfway through Quentin, but the obsession with stopping that watch....but still, it (time, and life) keeps going on...

"the shadow of the sash appears on the curtains" = 7 o'clock. Even when he's not looking at his watch, he cannot escape the passing of time. Maybe this is just a me thing, but when I wake up in the middle of the night, I can tell what time it is by where the moon is, and what time it is when I awaken in the morning by the light

Hmm, I see we've skipped on to Quentin without finishing the discussion on Benjy. Since you all seem to have finished reading the Benjy section, I'll continue to post observations in the Benjy threads and hope that you guys will still participate there as well!

Do I sense that maybe some of us decided to skip through that section because of the confusion? That would be a shame, because it is actually very cleverly written in many respects. Obviously Faulkner first laid out a schematic of the plotline and then correlated the fragments as he stirred the pot... much like I think Woolf must have done with Mrs. Dalloway and Joyce with Ulysses, except that the latter two did it in a geographical sense while Faulkner did it in a chronological sense.

Traveller wrote: "Hmm, I see we've skipped on to Quentin without finishing the discussion on Benjy. Since you all seem to have finished reading the Benjy section, I'll continue to post observations in the Benjy thre..."

I'm still here, no skipping.
Cortázar wrote a novel (which strangely enough, I haven't yet read) even more challenging than Hopscotch in this regard....in the original editions, the.bottom third of the page turned separately from the top third, IIRC, so that, depending on how you turned pages, the meaning change. "Choose your own novel". Havent found an edition like that

Linda wrote: ". "Choose your own novel"."

Hmm, a few years ago, just when video games really started to take hold, you could buy treebooks where you could also "choose your own story" depending which page you decided to go to next. Is that like what you are referring to?
I haven't read it either, perhaps that should be next on our list! (I'm assuming there's an English version, because my Spanish is extremely sparse) :P

I find that I get through books I would otherwise have skipped if I'm forced to do a GR discussion on it....

Aha, back to the Shadow theme. **The trouble I'll have here going forward is that people will think I am forever falling back on the critics' insights. That isn't the case. I am blindly following along as are the rest of us now. In fact I'm pursuing the substance of my earlier thread I posted today.
** The first thing that struct me about the Shadow and it's repetitive occurence in the Quinten chapter, was the work done by Carl Jung. In effect it is our "dark side". To avoid trying to convey the essence of it - I strongly ask that you research this information on your AI app of choice. I have just done so with Chat Gpt and the results are astonishingly accurate and in alignment with the very theme of this chapter. I implore you to take a look so that we can all come back and take a look in greater depth as to how this plays out in the character's role.

Bonitaj wrote: "Aha, back to the Shadow theme. **The trouble I'll have here going forward is that people will think I am forever falling back on the critics' insights. That isn't the case. I am blindly following a..."

Thanks for that, Bonitaj! Jung-fan here! I can definitely see how that could play a role - I do believe Faulkner is a clever and allusive writer, so I will not be in the least bit surprised if he wove our shadow-self into the novel, and especially with regard to Quentin. Well, since this is a theme, as long as you don't reveal actual events from later on in the novel, you can certainly let rip with symbolism, imagery and themes. EDIT Even when they are critic's ideas, no problem at all, though you should probably just mention your sources. In fact, please fill us in on what the critics say, since I certainly don't have the time to go through all of the critical literature myself, with the caveat that you mention the surname of the critic and wait until whatever it is actually pops up in the novel - so here, since shadows are certainly being mentioned, that would be entirely appropriate!

...which brings me to my character commentary that I wanted to throw out there; What a difference from the previous section, eh? In this section we are obviously from the get-go dealing with someone far more intelligent, sophisticated and well-read; (he starts off with some philosophical musings); and at the same time he comes across as a bit obsessive and neurotic, with all of his worrying and pre-occupations no?

hey Traveller.. don't worry about me, from now on I'm stumm... have a lot of reading to stay abreast of the rest of the group. I do like this question and answer aspect, because that's where we throw ideas around. I agree that Quentin comes across as neurotic. As you read through the text, the etiology of "why" becomes apparent.

Bonitaj wrote: "As you read through the text, the etiology of "why" becomes apparent..."
Yes, I believe I know what you're referring to - but... later...

And just in case you missed my edit above, please feel free to regale us with epiphanies from your Norton, even when they are critic's ideas, no problem at all, though you should probably just mention your sources.

In fact, please fill us in on what the critics say, since I certainly don't have the time to go through all of the critical literature myself, with the caveat that you mention the surname of the critic and wait until whatever it is actually pops up in the novel - so here, since shadows are certainly being mentioned, that would be entirely appropriate!
But then as you say, since this will become more apparent a bit further on, and some of us couldn't get a copy in time, let's maybe hold on to that thought a little bit, just for a day or so... apologies that I'm also lagging a bit behind; as I mentioned, things have been busy!

There are so many themes to explore from pretty much the get-go in Quentin, that it's hard to know where to begin: I looked up the St Francis quote about "sister death", and thought I'd report back for those among us who are not Catholic. Imma be lazy and quote from Wikipedia, and the following is not a spoiler, but I'll put it in spoiler brackets so you don't have to scroll past a wall of text if you're not interested:

(view spoiler)[ Giovanni di Pietro di Bernardone (c. 1181 – 3 October 1226), known as Francis of Assisi, was an Italian mystic, poet, and Catholic friar who founded the religious order of the Franciscans. Inspired to lead a Christian life of poverty, he became a beggar and itinerant preacher.

Francis is associated with patronage of animals and the environment. It became customary for churches to hold ceremonies blessing animals on his feast day of the fourth of October, which became World Animal Day. He is known for devotion to the Eucharist. Along with Catherine of Siena, he was designated patron saint of Italy. He is also the namesake of the American city of San Francisco, California.

Interestingly, he was actually born into a wealthy family, but decided wealth was not the way to enlightenment or salvation.

Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon
by St. Francis of Assisi

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord, All praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong, and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.
Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.
Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.
Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth
who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs.
Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon for love of You and bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace, By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm. Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility. (hide spoiler)]

Now, if you look at the canticle, you will see that it mentions many brothers and sisters, sister moon, sister earth, sister water, brother fire, etc., but Quentin chooses to home in on sister death, which, along with his reflections on the absurdity of human experience and the futility of human endeavor ( The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools. ) perhaps primes us to the fact that he's not in a good place.

[And Bonitaj's shadow probably also features in this.]

Something else that one quickly picks up from Quentin's narration, is that he seems obsessed with things that his father said. Every second sentence is "Father said, Father said. "

So, a few recurring themes on the first few pages already: His father, 'sister', time, futility, and besides that, his thoughts seem to be churning, churning, churning.

..and of course, then there's that elephant in the room that nobody here has mentioned yet, being the passage: "I said I have committed incest, Father I said.

Does that mean that Quentin committed incest with Caddy? He certainly seems to be obsessed with her marriage, with virgins, brides, Dalton Ames, and so on, doesn't he?
Let's march on and see!

Traveller wrote: "..and of course, then there's that elephant in the room that nobody here has mentioned yet, being the passage: "I said I have committed incest, Father I said.

Does that mean that Quentin committe..."<
I did a double take as well when I read that libe

Linda wrote: "I did a double take as well when I read that libe..."

If that had happened, it would be kinda big, huh?

And on that note, I forgot to check on which point in the timeline this narration is taking place. Since Quentin was born in 1890, and today is in 1910, that would mean Quentin is 20 years old by now, and Caddy, being born in 1892, would be 18.

We get some clues that Caddy could perhaps have got married when Benjy was 15 years old, which would have been in 1895 plus 15 = 1910 - so, if it was indeed Caddy's wedding that was referred to, then that would have happened pretty close to Quentin's present.
EDIT: Since her wedding was on 25 April, that makes 2 June just over a month later.

Traveller... how about "explosive"! I've somehow intimated it, somewhere along the way in his ruminations -that it has headed in that direction.
Thanks for your exhaustive research on St. Francis of Assisi. I am not Catholic either.
What I've already picked up in this chapter is a lot of "slagging off" on women, to the point of full blown misogyny. I haven't the time to go back and harvest various quotes but should anyone encounter proof, please write examples in this thread.

If I may revert to the concept of THE SHADOW again.
I believe Quentin struggles with his inner darkness and repressed desires exactly as it's depicted by Jung. I can go into much more detail but I'll wait till everyone is caught up and "on the same page"!

Bonitaj wrote: "What I've already picked up in this chapter is a lot of "slagging off" on women, to the point of full blown misogyny. I haven't the time to go back and harvest various quotes but should anyone encounter proof, please write examples in this thread. ..."

Yes, I had already suspected as much, which is why I was planning to make feminism and Southern attitudes that include racism and misogyny part of the discussion, but later on, when we've covered a bit more ground.

I was thinking that perhaps a separate "themes" thread might be a good idea, but it might also be good to deal with these themes as they occur.
I do seem to be noticing that there are re-ocurring themes that snake in and out of the novel and it might be nice to at some point take an overview of them.

If a may... just a teaser to qualify the tone of his darkness:
"I didn't kiss a dirty girl like Natalie anyway.
(in Italics above).
The wall went into shadow and then my shadow".
It's obsessive and seems ever present.

I love the idea of a "themes thread"... there's so much to tease out and support it from the text!

Bonitaj wrote: "I love the idea of a "themes thread"... there's so much to tease out and support it from the text!"

[Btw, if you look at the bottom of your messages you'll see a little piece of text which says "edit" in case you want to edit that message.]

Back to themes: we've so far identified : Innocence and it's loss (so far with Benjy, but that theme might expand); time and the passage of time and the nature of time; futility; the paternal voice; the role of parenting; I'll throw a new one in - the taking of responsibility; also, "the shadow" which could stand for our dark side but it could also stand for death, and we do see that Quentin seems rather aware of his own and in general human mortality, and let me throw in another one : Southern values and attitudes towards religion, sexuality and honor, and how they assign honor and the value thereof.

Keep an eye out for all of those and we can discuss later!

Oh, and 2 comments on the events quickly - I was wondering what the scene in the watch store was all about and wondered if it symbolised the man-made nature of time.

Then, also, one becomes aware of the fact that here at Harvard, which is close to Boston of course and of course therefore very much far away from "Southern" culture, how almost ill-at-ease Quentin seems to feel about how Northern and Southern values clash especially as it pertains to racism (and that is an example of what I mean with "dasein" as it pertains to Quentin - he is very much aware of where he sits (metaphorically speaking) in relation to his social and physical surroundings and the various streams in values and cultural judgements that surround him, and he questions it and weighs what his position is relative to it).

The incident between Quentin and the man on the donkey really puzzled me – what was the whole "I caught you out" thing about? So I trawled my sources and the internet, and I found this:

 "Christmas gift" - a customary game in the South, usually between blacks and whites, where the one who can say "Christmas gift" first gets a gift. Usually no gift was exchanged except that white adults would give black children money when "caught." The custom, like Quentin's stated views about black people's behavior, expresses an affectionate albeit racist paternalism left over from slavery and characteristic of Faulkner's South in the early twentieth century. The passage that then follows is a rich index of all the clichés of Southern paternalism.

…and indeed, I'm not sure if those are Quentin's sentiments or Faulkner's, but they seem to be typical of the kind of paternalistic "benevolent" racism that you see in works by Southerners such as Gone with the Wind.

Bonita mentioned bad grammar, so now it's jumping out at me, especially when it comes from Quentin himself, for example, Fitted, awaked

I've had a thought about the time theme, and all of the to-and-fro with clocks and Quentin trying to escape from the passage of time by avoiding clocks and progressing shadows, and that is that along with time goes change, so if Quentin could have escaped time, he could have escaped the changes in their lives that have left him so unhappy.

EDIT: or maybe Quentin is simply a neurotic guy with a touch of OCD and a weird obsession with the concept of "time". ..and maybe, just maybe, it's Quentin who is the looney.

I want to throw a wild thought out there and you guys are quite welcome to shoot me down in flames, but what do you think of the possibility that Quentin might be gay? That his apparent obsession with Caddy is that perhaps he identifies with Caddy, rather than the more obvious and pat conclusion that he might be infatuated with her.

Ok, and since I have now hit on a lot of misogynistic talk (where it seems that the necessity or not of having Caddy watched is being discussed
(view spoiler)[At least you agree there is reason for having her watched I wouldn’t have I wouldn’t have. I know you wouldn’t I didn’t mean to speak so sharply but women have no respect for each other for themselves But why did she ....... think I would have could have She didn’t mean that that’s the way women do things it’s because she loves Caddy ........ Father and I protect women from one another from themselves our women Women are like that they dont acquire knowledge of people we are for that they are just born with a practical fertility of suspicion that makes a crop every so often and usually right they have an affinity for evil for supplying whatever the evil lacks in itself for drawing it about them instinctively as you do bed-clothing in slumber fertilising the mind for it until the evil has served its purpose whether it ever existed or no (hide spoiler)]

So, as discussed above, I thought it might be a good idea if we make one "themes" thread for the misogyny (and maybe we can do racism in that thread as well- as it falls under "Southern values of a bygone era" and then another "themes" thread for death, time, shadows/the shadow and futility" which I shall make soon.

In the meantime, here is a link to the "misogyny themes" thread, or else you can access it by clicking on the heading of this thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bonitaj wrote: "If I may revert to the concept of THE SHADOW again.
I believe Quentin struggles with his inner darkness and repressed desires exactly as it's depicted by Jung. I can go into much more detail but I..."

Oh, yes, the darkness and what it leada to. He's definitely goung through depression.

As to the women....well, none are painted in a positive light, are they? With the possible exception of Dilsey

Traveller wrote: "I want to throw a wild thought out there and you guys are quite welcome to shoot me down in flames, but what do you think of the possibility that Quentin might be gay? That his apparent obsession w..."

That thought hit me more than once, as ai read the first bit. The switch in rommates and all, and leaving behind a gift.

The Christmas gift is spot on. In the days of slavery, and even after, a plantation owner/rancher would give each of his slaves or workers a few coins at Christmas. So, yes, a paternal attitude. Interesting that he's capable of thinking anything at all for others when he's so down.

Btw, the "edit" button doesn't appear on my phone (not using the app or laptop).

Traveller wrote: "Ok, and since I have now hit on a lot of misogynistic talk (where it seems that the necessity or not of having Caddy watched is being discussed
[spoilers removed]

So, as discussed above, I thought..."

OoosheabouttomaketheSouthernersmadupinhere!

Linda wrote: "OoosheabouttomaketheSouthernersmadupinhere!..."

Well.... my sister and her family live in Tennessee, and my kid's uncle's family moved from California to North Carolina, so I got a lot of folks gonna me mad at me...!
Ok, but seriously, my family is not like that - honest! Ok, let me shut up and try to stick to the 'no politics' rule....

Anyway, I meant to say "of the time..." Lemme go and edit that in. 🤦‍♀️

Earlier on someone commented on the impact of Quentin's father in his life. I found this a very telling quotation:
"Where the best of thought Father said clings like dead ivy vines upon old dead brick. Not Harvard then. Not to me, anyway. Again. Sadder than was. Again. Saddest of all. Again."
On a number of occasions, his father denigrates the institution and Quentin's being there. Being unfit to be there.
The very next sentence is evidence of how this treatment is part of what propels him further into depression.
"When I can see my shadow again if not careful that I tricked into the water shall tread again upon my impervious shadow" **

** In superstition, if you step on your own shadow, you will die (footnote from the Norton Edition).

Bonitaj wrote: "Earlier on someone commented on the impact of Quentin's father in his life. I found this a very telling quotation:
"Where the best of thought Father said clings like dead ivy vines upon old dead br..."

His father's voice does seem to subsume him, and it's definitely not a very positive voice, is it? Personally, especially taking the whole passage of :

Hats not unbleached and not hats. In three years I can not wear a hat. I could not. Was. Will there be hats then since I was not and not Harvard then. Where the best of thought Father said clings like dead ivy vines upon old dead brick. Not Harvard then. Not to me, anyway. Again. Sadder than was. Again. Saddest of all. Again.

into account, that seemed to me to be a rumination on the fact that
SPOILER ALERT: Read only if you've already moved on to the next section please (view spoiler)[ he is planning to commit suicide; he would be able to go without a hat in three years time if he remained alive, but the 'not' I took to mean that he will not be wearing a hat and will not be at Harvard, because he wouldn't be alive anymore. Your quote of the shadow in the water also seems to be a foreshadowing of the fact that he is planning to drown himself. (hide spoiler)]

...but doubtless his parent's mores and ideas about what constitutes respectability does have a negative impact on his psyche (both his parents seem pretty negative people, I must say), but he is also of course depressed because of his obsession with Caddy, who just got married.

And yes, the father's outlook is pretty cynical, isn't it?

Great follow up to the quote. much appreciated!

To me the defining passages that sort of lays out where his mind is at, starts on the Norton Critical Edition 2nd edition's page 65, starting with:

Done in Mother’s mind though. Finished. Finished. Then we were all poisoned you are confusing sin and morality women dont do that your mother is thinking of morality whether it be sin or not has not occurred to her Jason I must go away you keep the others I’ll take Jason and go where nobody knows us so he’ll have a chance to grow up and forget all this the others don't love me they have never loved anything with that streak of Compson selfishness and false pride Jason was the only one my heart went out to without dread nonsense Jason is all right I was thinking that as soon as you feel better you and Caddy might go up to French Lick and leave Jason here with nobody but you and the darkies she will forget him then all the talk will die away found not death at the salt licks maybe I could find a husband for her not death at the salt licks The car came up and stopped. The bells were still ringing the half hour. I got on and it went on again, blotting the half hour. No: the three quarters. Then it would be ten minutes anyway. To leave Harvard your mother’s dream for sold Benjy’s pasture for what have I done to have been given children like these Benjamin was punishment enough....

etc.

...it's like he was afraid to go there in his mind and now it all comes tumbling out.

...so I'm gonna leave a spoiler alert here for Saski and perhaps others who might still follow the discussion later: Please don't continue down this thread if you haven't read up to this point, because we might want to discuss rather big plot points from this point onwards.

In any case, apparently the "French Lick" that he mentions, is some kind of holiday resort where people go to look for marriage partners. I guess if you didn't have Tinder, you still had to make some sort of plan ... 😁

Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: "OoosheabouttomaketheSouthernersmadupinhere!..."

Well.... my sister and her family live in Tennessee, and my kid's uncle's family moved from California to North Carolina, so I got a l..."

:D
My niece was in New Bern, NC for about 10 yrs or so, except the 2 yrs her hubby pulled off the sticks, they were sent to the desert of CA.

Linda wrote: "My niece was in New Bern, NC for about 10 yrs or so, except the 2 yrs her hubby pulled off the sticks, they were sent to the desert of CA...."

My BIL actually had a bad reason for wanting to get away from LA among other things; one of their sons got involved in drug culture and they had a massive struggle to get him off it. I suppose they felt Raleigh would be a bit more in the sticks (in a good way) than LA, (that was just a semi-joke, NCans please don't get offended) but anyway, back to Faulkner:

I don't know about you guys, but for me, in these pages where Quentin via his memories exhibits the mother's reaction, it just once again highlights for me this woman's selfishness, self-centredness and lack of maturity.

...and just to add to Bonitaj's comment about the Father's cynicism depressing Quentin, there's more to be depressed about from the mother's side: the mother is also clearly rejecting Quentin along with Caddy and Benjy in her little tirade.

Women do have ..... an affinity for evil, for believing that no woman is to be trusted, but that some men are too innocent to protect themselves.

What, I find that last phrase laughable.

Anyway, you guys might also by now have figured out that the italics form one narrative, interspersed by the text not in italics, which tend to represent a different narrative, usually Quentin's immediate surroundings. It's like he's reminiscing, revisiting things in his head while his body moves around the physical world.

Apparently when Herbert head mentions that what he cheated at was "no police crime" he refers to the fact Quentin knew he had cheated in exams at Harvard, though there is confusion about whether Quentin meant that Herbert had had sex with Caddy, but it is the cheating at exams that Quentin meant to convey he "wouldn't tell " on.

I get the idea that Herbert Head is older than the Compson children because he's finished with Harvard and established in business. Oh duh, I see he's been out in the world now for 10 years, so there its spelled out...

"...tramping my shadow into the dust.." seems to be a recurring phrase, along with other mentions of shadows, so yes, Bonitaj and Linda, definitely a kind of obsession, along with the "time" theme.

"dont let them send him to Jackson promise" Jackson is some sort of mental asylum,
" bubber" is apparently a condescending form of "brother." "You're meddling in my business again didn't you get enough of that last summer" Caddy has now joined Quentin and Herbert's conversation and that is her speaking.

Ok, so the "Bland" person that Quentin sees rowing on the river is the son of Mrs Bland who is some kind of housemother at Quentin's residence; this Bland fellow (Gerald Bland) is apparently a rake among the women with his mother's full approval.

Traveller wrote: "There are so many themes to explore from pretty much the get-go in Quentin, that it's hard to know where to begin: I looked up the St Francis quote about "sister death", and thought I'd report back..."

Ahhh, this took me back to the film Brother Sun, Sister Moon (1972), with the soundtrack by Donavan. Thank you, I'll have to go back, dig out my copy, and take a trip down memory lane.

Some thoughts:
Father damn that horse damn that horse. Wait it's my fault Quentin is trying to take the blame for being thrown by the horse, an event which broke his (Quentin's) leg.

It was the custom of the time to call older male black people "uncle" and older female black people "auntie".

The Quentin section contains quite a lot of religious references- some to evil and sin, the mention of St Francis, and Quentin thinks a lot about hell.

It seems to me that Quentin is the apple of his father's eye, and Jason the apple of his mother's eye.

Very interesting is that Faulkner himself never had a sister.

pro•gen•i•tive. - : tending to or able to reproduce itself
philoprogenitive. fertile, fruitful, tending to produce offspring; of, relating to, or characterized by love of offspring. well, of course the "philo" part is "love of"", so..

"Father will be dead in a year they say if he doesn’t stop drinking and he wont stop he cant stop" Is Jason the father molded on Faulkner himself?

Much as I wouldn't like to let an instance of misogyny get away, it was of course Caddy who said to Quentin: "I didn’t kiss a dirty girl like Natalie anyway", after she had pushed the girl out of jealousy when Quentin and Natalie were, er... doing some horseplay in the barn.

Euboeleus was the guy with the pigs when Persephone was kidnapped by Hades.

Bonitaj wrote:"I didn't kiss a dirty girl like Natalie anyway."

Hmm, though keep in mind this is what Caddy said to Quentin when they were still pretty young, when Quentin was making romantic/sexual advances to the girl called Natalie in the barn.
Natalie might actually have been physically dirty, or Caddy is saying it out of jealousy.

..so.. about the misogyny so far:
I feel that the parts about women being evil, might be more an echo of the father Jason's cynical remarks than Quentin's true feelings - Quentin's thoughts aren't exactly what I would call normal, in any case.

And then there's the fact that Quentin tried beating up Gerald Bland for making a misogynistic remark, so it's not really misogyny unchecked, I would say - Spoade and Shreve are even on Quentin's side about this.

Way to go Traveller! glad you picked up on my misreading it the other day. I totally got that wrong. Remember I had asked at the outset, who was staying what? I couldn't determine if it was Quentin speaking through his stream of consciousness or who the protagonist was, hence the error.
What I think we have yet to address, is a thread on racism.
Lots of material there. Thanks