Victorians! discussion

Would you believe it’s eight weeks already and we’re at the end of our journey with Molly, Cynthia and Mrs. Gibson, at the end of Wives and Daughters which Mrs Gaskell has certainly started to wrap up even if her passing prevented her from finishing it.

When last we left our characters, Osborne Hamley had died and the secret of his marriage was known and Cynthia’s secret likewise was out in the open, as a consequence essentially of Lady Cumnor’s revelations. Cynthia had somewhat redeemed herself returning as soon as she heard of Molly’s illness while Osborne’s widow and child had arrived at Hamley. Cynthia had broken off her engagement with Roger who now back from Africa because of Osborne’s death wished to hear it from her own lips.

Molly is convalescing at home while Cynthia returns from her second visit to London, this time with a new suitor, a lawyer Mr Henderson who had offered and was refused previously but now has done so again. Now, just as Roger arrives for an explanation, Mr Henderson has ‘beaten him to it’ and has been accepted by Cynthia. Witnessing their closeness through a window, Roger exchanges a few words with poor Molly, who is heartbroken for him, and leaves.

Wedding preparations begin, to be held in London away from Cynthia’s previous suitors and hosted by her uncle and aunt Kirkpatrick but Molly falls ill again at the last moment. Lady Harriet comes to the rescue once again carrying Molly away to the Towers (much to the latter’s dread), allowing the rest of the family to proceed with their plans. At the Towers, Molly finds a very different reception and atmosphere from when she was a little girl and not only recovers her health but ends up interacting with the many scientific and others guests being hosted there, including Roger (whose changed position Mrs Gibson is unable to quite take in).

Roger who had already noticed Molly’s beauty is now beginning not only to see her more at an advantage but also gets a little jealous at the attention she is receiving from other guests, particularly Sir Charles whom Lady Harriet has charged with looking after Molly. Of course, he doesn’t tell Molly that though he lets her know the Squire is annoyed with her visit to the Towers when he’d much rather have had her at Hamley.

Promising to and looking forward to spending time at Hamley as of old, Molly’s visit is spoiled even before it starts by the Hollingford busybodies, specifically Mrs Goodenough, the originator of all wagging tongues it would seem, by insinuating the visit might lead to a possible ‘match’ for Molly in Roger. Molly as a result is very reserved and positively avoids Roger as much as she can through her visit, things only set right at the end when something of their old camaraderie, but perhaps more, returns.

While complications arise with little Roger ending up with the scarlet fever which mends things between the Squire and Aimee, Roger realises and confesses his feelings for Molly to Mr Gibson but declares he was say nothing to her until he returns from his second trip to Africa.

Cynthia is married and Molly and Roger likely to get together when we leave them, though exactly how Mrs Gaskell had envisioned these chapters playing out we will never know. More fun would be Mrs Gibson’s reactions and behaviour at these revelations which I don’t think she’s guessed at.

What did you think of the book as a whole? On its own and against any of her others that you’ve read?

Cynthia
Cynthia seems to have escaped both her previous mistakes and suitors and made herself quite a fitting match in Mr Henderson, a lawyer with plenty of private fortune and a reasonable likeable person, though no match to Roger of course. She declares too that she couldn’t have got on with Roger since he felt to deeply acknowledging yet again that she is incapable of any depth of feeling. What did you think about how things turned out for her?

Molly
Molly has blossomed into the beautiful young woman Mrs Hamley and later Osborn saw in her and has perhaps not yet realised her true feelings for Roger. When a chance arises for that to happen on her visit to Hamley, it is ruined by Mrs Goodenough’s interventions. But things have started to heal and we know she will marry Roger making him, the Squire and even Aimee very happy.

Mrs Gibson
Mrs Gibson is unsurprisingly pleased at Cynthia’s advantageous marriage, thinking as always in terms of climbing the social ladder, a though she quite thoughtlessly confesses to her husband. But she makes a few errors on the way even informing the Kirkpatricks of Cynthia’s previous engagement (one of the two anyway). Learning of Roger’s recent success and the demand for him in London and at the Towers perhaps gives her some surprise and leaves her with a little regret over her treatment of him.

Gossip
The gossips and busybodies have done their damage in previous segments but even on the way out they create obstacles for Molly and Roger preventing things from playing out as they otherwise might have.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Cynthia
Cynthia seems to have escaped both her previous mistakes and suitors and made herself quite a fitting match in Mr Henderson, a lawyer with plenty of private fortune and a reasonable likeabl..."

This read flew by. I wonder if Mr. Henderson and I are related?

I thought W&D was excellent. Mrs. Gaskell was a true artist. I was a little taken aback by the abrupt ending but it does allow for one's imagination to run wild.

Thanks for facilitating Lady C.

Francis wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Cynthia
Cynthia seems to have escaped both her previous mistakes and suitors and made herself quite a fitting match in Mr Henderson, a lawyer with plenty of private fortune ..."

Glad you enjoyed the read, Francis.

Yes, it's sad about it being unfinished. What gauged was Mrs Gaskell would have wrapped up things in a chapter or two since most threads had fallen into place. The editor's note from Cornwall magazine says though that she would have ended it in one more chapter.

Thank you for the opportunity of this read with the group. I have read the novel a few times before but this read prompted me to up my rating from 4 to 5 stars. I had only given it four because of the lack of an ending but I now realise that is an insult to the absolute quality that is Elizabeth Gaskell’s writing. Time and time again I had to admire how the author described and developed situations. It now sits alongside Mary Barton and North and South as five star reads.

As Francis says, the lack of an ending does give opportunities to let your imagination go into overdrive. If Roger and Molly did end up in London as is suggested, I would worry that she would spend too much of her time attempting to rescue Cynthia from her latest ‘scrape.’ Cynthia’s dandy of a husband might be eye catching for a while but I really can’t see her settling down to married life as he might expect. Now a novel about Molly and Cynthia in London might have been a fascinating sequel for Elizabeth Gaskell to write had she lived.

Having said all that, I still prefer the ending that was described in the excellent Wives and Daughters BBC series (1999)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215364/

(spoiler alert for those who have not watched that series and don’t want to know how they ended it) (view spoiler)[Molly goes off around the globe with Roger to take part in his scientific investigations. Her love of nature and intelligence would make her entirely suitable as a partner in his work. (hide spoiler)]

Like Francis and Trev, I was also disconcerted by the somewhat abrupt ending, no doubt due to Mrs. Gaskell's death. I had been both reading the book and listening to a recording, and therein made a lucky discovery. There was a final section in the recording which was a tribute to Mrs. Gaskell's undeniable genius and shared some of the ideas she had imparted to her family about the ending. According to the recording, Molly and Roger marry after his return from Africa. His scientific career is very successful, and the happy couple moves to London, where he earns a good living. Mr. Gibson hires an assistant so that he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. Cynthia and her husband remain in London, but no more details are given. There is no information about any children born to either couple, nor is there any more said about Squire Hamley. It's not much to go on, but I'm just happy that Molly and Roger end up together!

Nancy wrote: "he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. "

I think it is quite clear: it is a nice way of saying that he regularly takes holidays from his wife. Gaskell shows him that much mercy. ... She travelled a lot herself without her husband. I think she knew very well how separation can save a marriage - not that there were that many alternatives in her time.

The planned ending as it is laid out in the editor's post-scriptum has always seemed a bit drawn out to me. Gaskell did like the trope of the dried rose, didn't she? (see N&S) But maybe the reason for that is that I like the ending suggested by the 1999 TV series. It takes liberties with Molly's character which I happen to like: this Molly is much more interested in natural history, as a nod to historic women in science and exploration, like Maria Sibylla Merian, among many others. There were female travellers and explorers, but I'm not so sure they wore breeches ;-)) -

Of course that speaks to us modern-day females. Nowadays, we have our problems with the "Fanny Price" type of characters. Although Molly is much more outwardly active than Austen's Fanny, she still has long periods where she only seems to obey, observe and suffer. Gaskell's heroines have come a long way from Mary Barton (view spoiler)[ who delivers a thriller-worthy maritime chase to rescue her lover (hide spoiler)].

sabagrey wrote: "Nancy wrote: "he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. "

I think it is quite..."

Given the daring of Mary Barton in Elizabeth Gaskell’s first novel, my fantasy is that, had she finished Wives and Daughters, the author might have stuck her neck out and taken that step beyond Molly just being Roger’s dutiful wife. After all, there was plenty of hints in the texts describing Roger and Molly looking down microscopes as well as sharing scientific texts and pamphlets. The rose that Roger kept was that little bit of nature/science binding them together. Their mutual love of science, shown by the author even in the early chapters when Molly was a young girl, surely can’t be wasted with Roger going off round the world whilst Molly has to stay at home housekeeping.

Molly did have the guts to challenge Roger about her own role in their relationship and, possibly like Agatha Christie, she would have accompanied him on his expeditions to gain expertise and even greater scientific competence.

Maybe the author would be letting Molly down if that didn’t happen because Elizabeth Gaskell herself managed both the challenges of married life and the production of high quality literature that has stood the test of time.

Although not exactly relevant to Wives and Daughters here is an interesting list (I’m sure it should be longer) of groundbreaking women in science and other disciplines, quite a few from the Victorian period. I don’t know how many (if any) were married and could combine the two roles in their lives.

https://royalsociety.org/news/2017/03...

Trev wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Nancy wrote: "he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. "

I ..."

That is an interesting take on W&D I really like that.

Trev wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Nancy wrote: "he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. "

I ..."

Glad to see Mary Anning in the list.

sabagrey wrote: "Nancy wrote: "he can take time off to make regular visits to Molly and "give his wife a rest." Whether that means he takes her with him or has a merciful escape is not clear. "

I think it is quite..."

I wondered about the ending that the editor discusses, besides the obvious that Molly will marry Roger, the scenes that he imagines, while fun, don't seem to entirely tie in with an ending unless it was going to be spread out over a few chapters rather than the one he says would have completed the story

Trev wrote: "Thank you for the opportunity of this read with the group. I have read the novel a few times before but this read prompted me to up my rating from 4 to 5 stars. I had only given it four because of ..."

It isn't hard to imagine Cynthia continuing to get into scrapes. Hopefully Molly is spared the drama but given her nature, I think she would be rushing over to 'help'.

Lady Clementina wrote: "TIt isn't hard to imagine Cynthia continuing to get into scrapes. Hopefully Molly is spared the drama but given her nature, I think she would be rushing over to 'help'."

oh yes, I can see it: Cynthia rushing over to Molly's to ask her to cover up for her latest lover, excusing herself by saying that she can't help being 'volatile', it's all her mother's fault. I do hope Molly learns to say 'no'.