Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

This discussion threat was inspired, unbidden, by newbie Undergrounder William Cooper, author of the new release book
How America Works... and Why it Doesn't: A Brief Guide to the US Political System



We, the Moderators, consider this book’s subject matter very timely, and worthy of discussion.

In the book’s blurb, Cooper says, “Twenty-first-century America isn’t working the way it’s supposed to.”

What do you, fellow Undergrounders, think? Is America working the way it’s meant to? And if not, why not?

To kick off the discussion in this new thread, allow me to ask (1) How would a Trump victory in the upcoming Presidential Election impact America and (2) how would a Harris victory impact America?

Or is it a case that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who wins because the same puppet masters will be pulling the President's strings?

Thanks for the great questions Lance. Allow me to kick this off, if I may.

(1) How would a Trump victory in the upcoming Presidential Election impact America?

---if Trump wins things will revert back much to how they were the last time he was president. Perhaps there will be some lessons learned and more stability, but mostly the same.

(2) How would a Harris victory impact America?

---if Harris wins there will be lots of continuity with the Biden administration. She and Walz appear to be swimming in the same direction as the current administration.

What do you think?

In my opinion, somehting has to change, but the question is, when? If you look at the US debt clock, we see the debt is about $35.28 trillion, the interest being paid per US adult is a little over $18,000 while the revenue per citizen (annoyingly, a different base) is just under $15,000. I gather the debt has increased by 1 trillion this year, reached sometime in August. With an election coming up, we shall hear the candidates arguing for tax cuts. In my opinion, this has to stop somewhere, but there is no sign that either Trump or Harris will deal with this.

The next problem is global warming. The difficulty is that the only countries trying to do something about this, like Europe, are going to pay the price of the others not bothering. It is really a separate discussion point, but the Western oligarchs, mainly in the US, are more interested in burning oil than saving the planet because they make more money.

In my opinion, I don't think it will matter overall who wins the election other than Trump is totally unpredictable, so we don't really know what will happen. However, he was spending money at a seriously greater rate than Biden, so we assume the debt will keep growing.

William wrote: "Thanks for the great questions Lance. Allow me to kick this off, if I may.

(1) How would a Trump victory in the upcoming Presidential Election impact America?

---if Trump wins things will revert..."

I think Trump, despite his myriad of faults, is America's only hope.... Sad but true.

What I really admire about the egotistical blowhard is he's the only US president in recent history who hasn't gone to war with other nations. That fact alone surely compensates for his many failings.

Ian wrote: "In my opinion, somehting has to change, but the question is, when? If you look at the US debt clock, we see the debt is about $35.28 trillion, the interest being paid per US adult is a little over ..."

The only thing I take issue with Ian is your assertion that "the next problem is global warming." I think the bigger problem is climate activism. Those nations that fall for the climate change narrative will end up even more bankrupt than they are now.

Note we don't refer to "global warming" now because the climate alarmists are s-l-o-w-l-y coming round to the realization Planet Earth has been as hot if not hotter than it is now in bygone eras...as recently as the Middle Ages I believe.

P.S. I'll now don my flak jacket and await the flak I suspect will soon be coming my way!

Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "In my opinion, somehting has to change, but the question is, when? If you look at the US debt clock, we see the debt is about $35.28 trillion, the interest being paid per US adult is a ..."

Yes, temperatures on Earth during the dinosaur period were up to 12 degrees hotter than now, but then again CO2 levels were at about 1600 ppm (https://news.ucsc.edu/2023/12/ancient....

I agree climate alarmists are anything but helpful because just running around making a nuisance of themselves achieves nothing. There are also some who remind me of the dark ages when there were supposed to be people running around flagellating themselves with birch branches in the strange feeling that being miserable now would get them into heaven.

The first thing we have to do once we realize this is real is to throw out some sacred cows, but keep the economy going. In one of my novels I had the solution of dispersing work and having everybody moved close to work so they could walk there. You could move materials around by train. This is not the thread to deal with that though.

I like how we are focusing on important topics, not trivial ones as so many do. What are the biggest threats to America? Is global warming number one on the list?

My opinion is it is the perceived obligation of politicians to big donors for political campaigns. They cannot do anything that is against the donors' interests. Ther eis also a herd mentality, so the politicians tend to sit down and throw slogans at the others. This is not peculiar to America.

I think the biggest problem is national debt and the refusal to stop spending. Clikmate change is unfortunate because it is long-term. One can ignore it for so long, but once that time comes, you cannot do anything to reverse it. But people in America are more likely to see America's big problems.

Good thoughts Ian. The national debt is huge indeed. Our last surplus was in 2001: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/ameri....

What were we doing so differently then?

William wrote: "Good thoughts Ian. The national debt is huge indeed. Our last surplus was in 2001: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/ameri......"

Not spending so much on the military, and not having to pay such massive amounts of interest on previous debt incurred by feeding the military industrial complex. For all the criticism of Cliinton, he at least managed to project US power when required without knocking up huge debt, and by not provoking too many others. That period was tolerably peaceful.

Yeah my thesis in the book is right around the turn of the century is when some of the big trends started to reverse and things started to deteriorate for the country.

William wrote: "I like how we are focusing on important topics, not trivial ones as so many do. What are the biggest threats to America? Is global warming number one on the list?"

Some would say Harris is the biggest threat to America. If that's the case, Trump supporters won't like today's CNBC headline...

"Harris will beat Trump, says election prediction legend Allan Lichtman"... https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/05/harri...

I understand Lichtman has an immaculate record when it comes to predicting presidential election results.

What is going on in Chicago with Venezuelans?

Google that and see what comes up. It's sobering news even if only half true.

I'm hearing similar stories from other states.

A more pertinent question might be what the hell is going on in the good ol' US of A?

Lance wrote: "What is going on in Chicago with Venezuelans?

Google that and see what comes up. It's sobering news even if only half true.

I'm hearing similar stories from other states.

A more pertinent questi..."

Re the more pertinent question, I visited the US many times in the late 20th century and I always found it relaxed and confident. A great place to visit and do business. But after 9/11 there seemed to be a significant change of attitude. The confidence and relaxation seemed to evaporate, and on top of that, while before Congress more or less worked, albeit with a lot of horse-trading, it seems to have got a lot more polarized. A mix of Trump and Mitch McConnell do not seem to have helped because superficially from the outside they seem to be more interested in an antagonistic approach to win what they want. I suspect the next election will be very important for the US future.

Ian wrote: "Lance wrote: "What is going on in Chicago with Venezuelans?

Google that and see what comes up. It's sobering news even if only half true.

I'm hearing similar stories from other states.

A more pe..."

I haven't visited US since 9/11 but I can well imagine it is as you say.

Re Trump, better to have some domestic antagonism than being hellbent on going to war with other nations perhaps.

Ian wrote: "Lance wrote: "What is going on in Chicago with Venezuelans?

Google that and see what comes up. It's sobering news even if only half true.

I'm hearing similar stories from other states.

A more pe..."

We are much more polarized indeed. I think it's the combination of (1) age-old human bias, (2) social media echo-chambers, and (3) the two-party political system. Does that seem right to the group?

I suspect social media has made it worse. I am all for freedom of expression, but unfortunately it seems to be the extremists who make the most use for it, and they spread outright lies like confetti. I don't know what can be done about that when many people don't want to think.

Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "Lance wrote: "What is going on in Chicago with Venezuelans?

Google that and see what comes up. It's sobering news even if only half true.

I'm hearing similar stories from other states..."

To clarify, when I say, "I haven't visited US since 9/11", that's not an admission that I was remotely involved in that event. ◡̈

Re 9/11, this "Final" FBI report (below) seems to raise more questions than it answers. Are investigations continuing or has the event simply been relegated to the history books?

https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-in...

My guess is nothing will actually happen, but unanswered questions will fester away for decades.

Ian wrote: "My guess is nothing will actually happen, but unanswered questions will fester away for decades."

That does seem to be the case, Ian. One poll result I saw a while back indicated most Americans (I think it was around 60%) believe 9/11 was an 'inside job'. Don't know if they still believe that or how reliable the poll was.

William wrote: "I like how we are focusing on important topics, not trivial ones as so many do. What are the biggest threats to America? Is global warming number one on the list?"

William, how realistic in your opinion is the prospect of armed rebellion in the US? Especially if Trump loses the election and once again blames his loss on vote tampering?

Great question Lance. I think it's realistic to think a small number of people may try to have an armed rebellion after the election. But I think law enforcement and the military will be able to shut it down quickly.

What do you think?

William wrote: "What do you think?"

Hard to say, William.
We Colonialists based Down Under (in NZ) are too far removed from the action to comment with any authority. We only have MSM news reports to rely on and as we all know those reports are hardly reliable.

I do know the world is closer to WW3 than ever before...and the US must shoulder much of the blame for that a la Gaza and Ukraine.

Much as I'm an avid, long-time admirer of the Land of the Free and its Constitution, I believe that in terms of civilian deaths around the world the US could be categorized as the worst terrorist nation on Earth. Passing those deaths off as "collateral damage" just doesn't cut it.

I appreciate hearing your perspective, as someone not mired in our local politics.

As for Lance's question about armed rebellion, I think the government of the US is too strong to allow that. There may well be civil disturbance, but ultimately it would fail for want of a real purpose.

Unchecked immigration needs to be addressed. People need to stop thinking of it as a humanitarian crisis and think of it from a sovereignty perspective. No other functioning country in the world allows for unchecked immigration-it affects health of the populace, health care costs, economics, politics, etc. War should not be inevitable either…I agree Lance, Trump is the most anti-war president in ever. We shouldn’t advocate for war. Also, inflation here is killing Americans-we need to re-establish pipelines, cut taxes and impose tariffs on China, Middle East countries, etc. How anyone could go to the pump or the grocery store and still support Kamala Harris is beyond me. Bidenomics is a failed system. I am not sure why the slogan America First pisses so many people off. If Japan said Japan first or Mexico said Mexico First, no one would bat an eye. We should not be the world’s police nor the world’s nanny. The average American i.e., not Taylor swift, movie stars or politicians, should be given as much opportunity to succeed as possible.

Ian wrote: "As for Lance's question about armed rebellion, I think the government of the US is too strong to allow that. There may well be civil disturbance, but ultimately it would fail for want of a real pur..."

I agree. The military does have a monopoly of force.

B. wrote: "Unchecked immigration needs to be addressed. People need to stop thinking of it as a humanitarian crisis and think of it from a sovereignty perspective. No other functioning country in the world al..."

I'm appalled and confused by America's southern border problem. Appalled because (it sounds like) millions of illegals are crossing the border and confused by the fact they're able to enter the US so easily and in such numbers.

What the hell's going on there? I can only assume people, including politicians and border guards, are turning a blind eye.

My gut feeling is border guards have been paid off.

Ian wrote: "My gut feeling is border guards have been paid off."

Same here. Can't think of a more logical explanation.

Why the confusion? They were invited.
https://youtu.be/rYwLYMPLYbo?si=Pv9l_...

This comment from an American friend who responded as follows when I asked if there has been any reliable US Presidential election polling in the US since the first assassination attempt on Trump...

"Most important to follow swing state polling. We still have huge issues with election integrity and consistent telegraphed messaging from principals on left who say, “Trump will never set foot in Office of President “. Then assailant #1 & #2, and recent (48 hours) doubling down by left rhetoric on his being a threat to democracy."

Anyone heard any recent poll results?

J. wrote: "Why the confusion? They were invited.
https://youtu.be/rYwLYMPLYbo?si=Pv9l_..."

Lordy!

Is there any word in the Underground about the likely result of the upcoming US Presidential election?

New York Times reports 8mins ago today 21 Sept NZ time "Harris had stronger debate but race remains deadlocked" while 2 days ago Fox News reported "Latest polling shows Harris extending lead over Trump".

Who is right? Anyone?

Can the polls be trusted? What's the likelihood of them being rigged...or is that a silly question?

Lance, it’s a great question. It depends on which poll you read…some polls have Trump taking a commanding lead and other have her up by a little. I think the state controlled media would never tell us the actual truth. The debate was admittedly rigged-Kamala is sorority sisters with one of the moderators who admitted to helping Kamala and fact checking only Trump. Kamala’s one appearance with Oprah after the debate was a hideous word salad of nothing…she’s vapid and useless. That said, we just so happen to have a literal invasion at southern border and two states have ruled that illegals can vote(mind you some countries actually jail or kill you for this, so why we allow it is anyone’s guess)…one of those is a swing state of AZ. Couple this with the lawfare and Kamala being crowned nominee without going through a primary and it smells like conspiracy.

I think it is wrong to criticise giving Kamala the nomination without going through primaries because thanks to Biden's clinging on there was not time for all the primaries (they would still be going) and one primary would give that zone unfair rights and the complaints would make the current situation far far worse. I think that in practice their only reasonable choice was run Biden and lose, or run Kamala and hope.

The Dems intentionally changed the the primary schedule (in violation of several states' laws) so that Biden would have a statistically easier road to the nomination.

Then they scheduled their convention after the due date to submit their candidate for the Ohio ballot. Ohio responded by creating a temporary extension, but the DNC decided to just ordain their nominee via zoom call before the delegates ever got to vote in the convention, as their precincts had wished.

All of that scheduling was done before Biden's nationally broadcast senior hour motivated them to do the swap.

It’s not wrong. They picked Biden, the media carried the water for him all along instead of telling the truth. She is not deserving of the presidency. They could have held a mini primary at the convention. She is a trainwreck. Had Trump done the same thing the MSM would be screaming insurrection. If everyone knew all along Biden was demented they should never have allowed him near the White House. American politics is just “who’s next” picked by the globalist puppet masters. Love or hate the man, Trump up ended that and the deep state is not happy. The RINOs and the democrats are one and the same-pro war, pro illegal immigration, race dividing, culture zealots who hate regular people. Our economy is in shambles, inflation is through the roof. And we are on the door step of WW3. If there is a god, he won’t let Kamala near the White House. I hope she just wanders off into the sunset and writes books or something meaningless to anyone but her.

J, you nailed it! Exactly! They pulled a shell game on everyone then play like Trump is the existential threat to “democracy”.

How many sitting Presidents have had to fight primaries to get renominated?

Ian, she isn’t the sitting president. She polled at less than 1 percent in her original bid for president. The people didn’t choose her. Trump had to go through the process all over again, so why shouldn’t she? She was chosen because this thing with Biden and the time was coordinated and purposeful…he was gone mentally a long time before the debate. That was the flimsy pre-text to take him out.

Not the point. Biden was the sitting President and up until very recently he was running, so my question is valid.

The Dems could not come out and say they needed primaries because Biden was demented without removing him from the Presidency, in which case Kamala would be President. The country can't run if the President has to take a year off to contest primaries.

Trump had to go through primaries because he already had one go for a second term and lost. He did not go through primaries, as I recall, for the 2020 vote.

So what you are saying is they knew he was demented. They should have them forced him out via the 25th amendment and forced her to own all of their terrible policies. Instead she got a coronation and a pass. She should have had to go through a primary as she is not chosen by the people…that little thing called democracy they keep saying Trump is trying to destroy was no where to be seen. Whether you like her or not is immaterial, she should follow same process as anyone else. She isn’t above the law or basic civics.

This line of thought requires that the Democratic Party heads knew that Biden was unfit for office and chose to rig the primaries in his favor, with the intent to install Kamala as the nominee without the support of rank and file registered Democrats.

That is called a coup.

Insightful comments from y'all. Thanks!

After reading them, it seems the one thing we can be sure of is the next two months will be very interesting...

The question being skipped is how could they have proven that Biden was demented? You need fairly high standards, and a simple accusation and a raft of Republicans that accuse him of being demented cannot be the standard or you will have 25th amendment coups all the time. That is not democracy.

Further, the candidate is not chosen by the people. The candidate is chosen by members of the party. Democracy is irrelevant until the final vote, and even then it is not democracy.

Finally, as far as I can see, Kamala has not broken the law, and to reject her on grounds of civics runs into dangerous territory unless you have a really clear-cut case. That people who are Republican-oriented don't like what is going on have a simple remedy - get out in November and vote like everyone else.

Ian wrote: "...[H]ow could they have proven that Biden was demented?..."

The cognitive function tests he kept refusing to take while we all watched his brain melt.

So why did they ask Biden to step down? Biden should still be on the ballot technically as he is sitting president despite his not doing anything at all this past year except stoke war flames and generally act like the buffoon he is. People around him have said they have known for a long time, but they thought they could continue to drug him up long enough to beat Trump, but his mask finally slipped publicly. I’m an American, I understand how the system works. Delegates are in fact people. She had 1 delegate from what I recall when she dropped out before becoming VP pick. She didn’t even beat Andrew Yang. She was installed no matter how you slice it.

Getting out to vote would be a good idea and people do, but then water mains break at midnight and hockey stick graphs happen, illegals are given right to vote, voter rolls aren’t purged so dead people vote, rules are changed in Pennsylvania day of election, mail in fraud, red states flip blue suddenly. Yeah I believe that’s the answer all right. Sorry, but with all respect that’s incredible naive. Washington is controlled by power brokers. Kamala is the most easily controlled and most republicans are just controlled opposition. Trump is the only candidate since JFK not to follow the deep states rules and they have tried to kill him, arrest him, sue him, etc to stop him from taking out the bad actors. The USA is not really a free country anymore. There are two sets of laws/rules-one for the elites and one for the common citizen.