Classics and the Western Canon discussion

“The Lottery in Babylon”

Summary: The narrator explains the Babylonian institution of the Lottery and its effects on men’s lives. “Like all the men of Babylon, I have been proconsul; like all, I have been a slave. I have known omnipotence, ignominy, imprisonment…I owe that almost monstrous variety to an institution – – the Lottery – – which is unknown in other nations, or at work in them imperfectly or secretly.”

The Lottery came into being when bored with the predictability of a lottery that paid cash prizes, the Babylonians added another “prize” of a financial fine. Since paying the fine became unfashionable, the “prize” became an automatic prison sentence. As the idea and practices of the Lottery evolved, the Company running the Lottery “assumed all public power,” and the Lottery became “secret, free of charge, and open to all.” The power of the Company and Lottery continued to evolve and grow.

Questions to start:

What role does chance play in the Lottery?

Is it significant that the narrator appears to no longer be in Babylon?

“A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quain”

Summary: This story analyzes the works of an imaginary writer, Herbert Quain. His first book “The God of the Labyrinth” was a detective story. “There is an incomprehensible murder in the early pages of the book, a slow discussion in the middle, and a solution of the crime toward the end.” A sentence later in the book points the “uneasy” reader to the real solution. In Quain’s second book “April March,” “death precedes birth, the scar precedes the wound, and the wound precedes the blow”. The thirteen chapters of this book contain nine different novels, all with the same first chapter. His third book “The Secret Mirror” is a “heroic two act comedy.” “There is a nightingale and a night; there is a secret duel on the terrace.” “The characters of the first act reappear in the second —under different names.” His last book was “Statements” containing eight stories. “Each of them prefigures, or promises, a good plot, which is then intentionally frustrated by the author.” And, “From the third story, titled “The Rose of Yesterday,” I was ingenuous enough to extract “The Circular Ruins”…

Starting questions:

If you had to read one of the imaginary works of Herbert Quain, which one would you pick? Why?

Why does Borges pick one of his stories to borrow from?

Susanna wrote: "The Lottery reminds me of Squid Game."

Can you say more about the resemblance? (I never saw Squid Game, although I heard a lot about it ;)

Babylon is as insecure as Tlon, but on a personal rather than a philosophical level. In Tlon you never know if any one thing is going to be the same thing over time, so it's an epistemological insecurity. In Babylon you never know your personal fate from day to day. I find them both to be anxiety-inducing scenarios, maybe because they are extreme versions of our lived reality. Uncertainty is a real thing, but we can have faith in some things. Maybe we have to?

Thomas wrote: "...I find them both to be anxiety-inducing scenarios, maybe because they are extreme versions of our lived reality..."

For me, what is so anxiety-inducing is the notion that it is not an "impersonal" uncertainty but the fact that there is this secret society who is causing this to happen. As he mentions in the story, how to know if the husband who killed his wife had his crazy moment or was an agent of the lottery? It is already hard to accept that human nature makes a man unbalanced to the point of killing someone in a crazy second but it is much harder to accept that someone is coldly taking orders to do it. I think that is what terrifies me in this story.

Susanna wrote: ". Squid Game is a Korean show on Netflix in which contestants play a game in which someone dies during each round. The last survivor wins a lot of money. It isn't clear whether the game is sponsored by a corporation or by the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_Game. ."

Thanks for the explanation. I’m starting to see ambiguity as an essential slant in Borges’ stories. Does the Lottery even exist any more? Did Pierre Menard create or copy those pages of Don Quixote?. And so on.

Monica wrote: "For me, what is so anxiety-inducing is the notion that it is not an "impersonal" uncertainty but the fact that there is this secret society who is causing this to happen. As he mentions in the story, how to know if the husband who killed his wife had his crazy moment or was an agent of the lottery? It is already hard to accept that human nature makes a man unbalanced to the point of killing someone in a crazy second but it is much harder to accept that someone is coldly taking orders to do it. I think that is what terrifies me in this story.”

Yes, it’s like the ultimate behind-the-scenes conspiracy scheme. And yet somehow, this system was desired by all the inhabitants of Babylon and entered into willingly. I don’t think I would have signed up!

Susan wrote: "“A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quain”

Summary: This story analyzes the works of an imaginary writer, Herbert Quain. His first book “The God of the Labyrinth” was a detective story. “There is an..."

Herbert Quain sounds a bit like Borges himself, though I think we hold Borges in higher esteem than the narrator does Quain.

I think I would most like to read the first novel, God of the Labyrinth. How can the reader solve a mystery when the detective in the story cannot? I would be interested to see how the author manages that one. It makes me wonder if it has been done, or attempted.

Italo Calvino seems to have attempted something like "April March" in Mr. Palomar, which is a series of 27 observations by the title's character, each of which combines a specific kind of experience and inquiry in a particular order. The 27 observations are divided into three parts corresponding primarily to visual experience, anthropological or cultural experience, and speculative experience. And then each part is divided into three sections that focus on each one of those types of experience as a secondary aspect within the primary aspect. And finally each individual observation includes the tertiary aspect to a lesser degree. So the result is a 3 x 3 x 3 lattice, which sounds quite similar to what Quain does in "April March".

Thomas wrote: "A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quain”. I think I would most like to read the first novel, God of the Labyrinth. How can the reader solve a mystery when the detective in the story cannot? I would be interested to see how the author manages that one. It makes me wonder if it has been done, or attempted.”

As a reader of many, many detective stories, I’m wondering the same thing. It’s not uncommon for the supposed solution to be revealed as incorrect very late in the book, or for the official detective to get the wrong answer so it is another character who solves the mystery , but in Herbert Quain’s book. it is the reader who interprets the final clue to solve the puzzle instead of a character in the story. That direct collusion between the reader and author may be what makes The God of the Labyrinth” unique

A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quinn. Thomas wrote: Italo Calvino seems to have attempted something like "April March" in Mr. Palomar, which is a series of 27 observations by the title's character, each of which combines a specific kind of experience and inquiry in a particular order. The 27 observations are divided into three parts corresponding primarily to visual experience, anthropological or cultural experience, and speculative experience. And then each part is divided into three sections that focus on each one of those types of experience as a secondary aspect within the primary aspect. And finally each individual observation includes the tertiary aspect to a lesser degree. So the result is a 3 x 3 x 3 lattice, which sounds quite similar to what Quain does in "April March".


Amazing! I wonder if the idea of Mr Palomar was inspired at all by this story or if the resemblance is coincidental/owing to the Zeitgeist.

Susan wrote: "“A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quain”
If you had to pick one of the imaginary works of Herbert Quain, which one would you pick? Why?”

I think I’d have to go for “The Secret Mirror” because it is a comedy and because I’m intrigued by how the second act is described as playing with the set up of the first act, but mostly because of the wonderful description “There is a nightingale and a night; there is a secret duel on the terrace.”. A nightingale and a secret duel — irresistible!

I'll admit it: I was frustrated by "Herbert Quain." I'm realizing why I put the book down at this point the last time I was reading it. The book review device seemed clever the first time he used it, but now I'm just feeling like he had many creative ideas for novels that would have been very difficult to actually pull off--so he didn't bother. Just made up book reviews about them. I'm hoping I'm going to see something "new" within the next couple of stories.

Susanna wrote: "Is Borges engaging in "plausible deniability", as many politicians do? As in "I heard this was true, but I don't know for sure"

That’s a great question. What is the purpose of the ambiguities and contradictions that Borges introduces in his stories? Do they make the stories more credible? Do they give the narrator “plausible deniability?” I don’t have an answer, so plan to keep this in mind as an open question.

Kathy wrote: "I'll admit it: I was frustrated by "Herbert Quain." I'm realizing why I put the book down at this point the last time I was reading it. The book review device seemed clever the first time he used i..."

I had a similar reaction at first to “A Survey of the Works of Herbert Quain, that it was somewhat repetitive and I was thankful there were only four books to be described ;). But then I got interested in the ideas of the books and in the idea of this author who wrote these very different books. For some reason, this made me think of James Joyce and how different his books are from each other.

The good news is that if we can trust the Foreword, there are three stories that use this idea of imaginary book reviews, and this is the last of the three.

My sense reading this book is that Borges seems very much to be sui generis. Maybe the author he most reminds me of is Lewis Carroll in his playful applications of logical ideas and interest in mirrors and dreams.

Susan wrote: "...But then I got interested in the ideas of the books and in the idea of this author who wrote these very different books ..."

The whole book seems to belong into the magical realism realm and I think the natural way for an author to enter into this would be to talk about imaginary books.

And he seems to generate interesting discussions about the role of literature and the relationship between authors and readers. Like almost at the end of Quain story, when he mentions that "...readers were an already extinct species. (...) every European (...) is a writer, potentially or in fact...".

As a writer myself, I frequently get ideas that seem like brilliant ideas for a book, but if I ever get as far as starting to write, I realize I could not possibly actually make them into interesting books. They are only good ideas, they would not make good books. The Herbert Quain books feel like those sorts of ideas.

Kathy wrote: "I'll admit it: I was frustrated by "Herbert Quain." I'm realizing why I put the book down at this point the last time I was reading it. The book review device seemed clever the first time he used i..."

Quain seems to have anticipated this frustration in "Statements." Each of the eight stories "prefigures or promises a good plot, deliberately frustrated by the author. One of them -- not the best-- insinuates two arguments. The reader, led astray by vanity, thinks he has invented them." Why on earth would a writer deliberately frustrate the plot?

Quain evidently wrote these stories for "imperfect writers," one of which is apparently the narrator (Borges) himself, who is vain enough to have extracted his idea for "The Circular Ruins" from one of them. Is that humility or self-deprecation?

Thomas wrote: "...Is that humility or self-deprecation?"

Maybe a little bit of both and also a little joke with the reader. It is also re-inforcing this idea of mixing fiction with actual facts and leading us into some other realm.

Monica wrote: “ The whole book seems to belong into the magical realism realm and I think the natural way for an author to enter into this would be to talk about imaginary books.

And he seems to generate interesting discussions about the role of literature and the relationship between authors and readers. Like almost at the end of Quain story, when he mentions that "...readers were an already extinct species. (...) every European (...) is a writer, potentially or in fact..."

Yes, this seems to be another recurring theme. Books, authors, mirrors, labyrinths, and libraries along with dreams, creation, and infinity!

Donnally wrote: "As a writer myself, I frequently get ideas that seem like brilliant ideas for a book, but if I ever get as far as starting to write, I realize I could not possibly actually make them into interesti..."

Nice to have another writer’s perspective on this idea! Borges’ words in the Foreword seem in sync : “It is a laborious madness and an impoverishing one, the madness of composing vast books—setting out in 500 pages an idea that can be perfectly related orally in five minutes.” So he’s doing the logical thing and saving ink and effort (his and ours) very efficiently?