The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This book starts off "in medias res" - in the middle of a story. There is no real description of the surroundings, the character or the time period. It starts with the image of a cage/prison. Hugh is determined to get out of the cage he is in, that is his relationship with a married woman. But he soon falls into a much bigger trap. Apparently, the civilized alternative to a duel is a pact of honor, where the loser must end his own life.

Society goes on and we meet Sybell Loftus, who pride herself on having clever and controversial guests at her parties, and the mysterious Rachel West. Hugh has just decided to extricate himself from one romance when he falls into another, deciding immediately that he must marry this woman, before he even speaks to her. Another guest, Dick, who has just arrived in England, also fixates on Rachel, largely because of her fortune. Rachel is rather famous in society from having been rich, then poor, then rich again, yet nobody really wants to hear about her experiences outside their circle. Rachel defends her friend, the author Hester Gresley.

We then get the story of Rachel and Hester growing up and the sincerity and loyalty of their relationship contrast with the superficial interactions of the society leaders. At the end we see Hester living with her brother and sister-in-law and valiantly threading the needle between asserting herself and accommodating their narrow standards.

What do you think about these characters?
Why do you think Hugh accepted the bargain from Lord Newhaven?
What do we learn about the position and power of women in this society?

oh dear ... I had almost forgotten how delightfully malicious Cholmondeley's writing can be.

In Lady Newhaven, I find again the character type of the "sanctimonious alduteress" (view spoiler)[ - as in Madeleine from Diana Tempest (hide spoiler)] which is quite exotic for nowadays readers, but which must have been familiar to MC and her readers, and a type which she obviously had an eye on. I note that the allusion here is quite subtle, but very much to the point: the book "Imitation of Christ" bound in fashionably lilac leather. Later, Lady Newhaven justifies her love affair as a "spiritual marriage".

Her barbs in the direction of religiosity and the church go on with her description of the vicar. I remember having read somewhere else a note of MC herself where she says that the character is purely fictional, but so recognisable that readers suggested to her whom she had had in mind.

I am listening to the audiobook, but I go back to the printed text to better savour the subtleties of her language.

I enjoyed this opening section, once I'd situated myself and sorted out the characters, and look forward to seeing how the various relationships develop. I did enjoy MC's description of women's friendship

Many sarcastic but true words have been said by man, and in no jealous spirit, concerning woman's friendship for woman. The passing judgment of the majority of men on such devotion might be summed up in the words, "Occupy till I come." It does occupy till they do come. And if they don't come the hastily improvised friendship may hold together for years, like an unseaworthy boat in a harbor, which looks like a boat but never goes out to sea. But, nevertheless, here and there among its numberless counterfeits a friendship rises up between two women which sustains the life of both, which is still young when life is waning, which man's love and motherhood cannot displace nor death annihilate; a friendship which is not the solitary affection of an empty heart, nor the deepest affection of a full one, but which nevertheless lightens the burdens of this world and lays its pure hand upon the next.

but am only disappointed that she felt this happened for very few women.

I was surprised at Hugh accepting the bargain from Lord Newhaven, but suspect it was one of those issues of honour that he felt he had no choice but to agree to terms. It is a strange sort of duel substitute and I'm not sure why Hugh continues to feel obliged to go through with it-I can't imagine Lord Newhaven wanting to publicize his "shame" at being cuckolded by calling him out if he doesn't kill himself.

The one thing I noted MC saying about the role of women in society referred more to the effects of poverty and the exploitation of the poor by the rich and subsequent jockeying of the poor to get the most of the crumbs that fall to their level. As Rachel West says:

If I had not been rich once myself I should think as all these people do, that the rich are devils incarnate to let such things go on. They have the power to help us. We have none to help ourselves. But they never use it. The rich grind the poor for their luxuries with their eyes shut, and we grind each other for our daily bread with our eyes open. I have got that woman's work. I have struggled hard enough to get it, but, though I did not realize it, I might have known that I had only got on to the raft by pushing some one else off it."

However she is certainly mocking society women in her portraits both of Lady Newahven and Sybell Loftus.

Good point, Frances, Hugh's idea of "honor" didn't stop him from an affair with another man's wife. But he feels obliged to go through with the bargain so as not to appear a coward. You're right that Lord Newhaven wouldn't tell why, but it seems the idea of appearing in society with even one person knowing his shame is too overwhelming for Hugh. It's hard for us to imagine in this era when there is no shame acknowledged by most people who have broken rules.

Hugh seems generally clueless and self-centered. He was positive that nobody suspected the affair, and he literally doesn't recognize his current mistress while fascinated by a new possibility.

I seem to like all the characters at the moment. I think MC is writing in a similar (but a lot more concise) style of George Elliott. Another similarity is the tendency to open chapters with a quotation. This is quite frustrating for me because my copy of the book does not have any notes that guide the reader to the specific works that are referred to.

Could the drawing of the lighters have been rigged? Such deliberation takes me back when we recently read the Master of Ballantrae, that is, whether the gold coin tossed at the opening of the novel was tampered with.

Why would Lord Newhaven risk his life when he is the injured party? (unless of course that he considers scandal worse than death). I can’t really figure out why Hugh accepted the challenge . It is well known that duelling traditionally with pistols can end up with both parties missing each other and no one gets hurt yet their honour remains intact. I have never heard of drawing lighters to settle a score before, so we’ll just have to wait and see what the outcome is.

The position and power of women in that society? That can be difficult for a man to answer, but there are sometimes psychological advantages over a man and they were certainly in a powerful position when it comes to the role of hostess; conversely, inheritance (primogeniture) was a problem. I would agree that a woman’s position is a lot more civilised nowadays.

There was a brief second in which Hugh's mind wavered, as the flame of a candle wavers in a sudden draught. Lord Newhaven's eyes glittered. He advanced the lighters an inch nearer.

If he had not advanced them that inch Hugh thought afterwards that he would have refused to draw.

I think the nonverbal communication between the two men explains a lot about the characters, and why Hugh draws. There is just this hint of power and superiority in Lord Newhaven's behaviour that would make a weaker man comply. And Hugh, if he is not weaker per se (hard to tell yet), is certainly in the weaker position here as the one who has done wrong.

Can one of our historians clarify what these lighters would have looked like? They obviously weren't the ones created by Bic today!

Lighters?????? - search for SPILLS for lighting fires (images)


Copy the link below :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/co...

Neil wrote: "Lighters?????? - search for SPILLS for lighting fires "

that's the thing I was thinking of - without knowing the exact name, neither in English nor in my native German. thank you!

Thanks! I've seen the term spills as well.

Lovely to be reading Mary Cholmondeley once again. A bit like soaking in a warm aromatic bath whilst eating a spicy curry.

The very first quote at the top of Chapter 1 comes from George Meredith, ( Modern Love - Stanza 43) - a man whose first wife had an adulterous relationship that he knew about. She eventually ran off, pregnant, with his portrait painter, and he wrote 50 sonnets and a novel about how much it hurt him.

https://genius.com/George-meredith-mo...

I think most of the author’s characters are unconventional in terms of Victorian novels, because they are laid bare, warts and all, from the beginning. No covering up the table legs here.

Is philandering Hugh going to be the book’s hero despite his opportunist dalliance with the ego centric Lady Newhaven? Or could it be disillusioned Rachel West or even fragile Hester? And what about that rough bloke from Australia whose idea of a relationship with a woman seems similar to his relationship with sheep? After the first nine chapters, I’ve decided it might be best not to seek out heroes, at this stage at least.

Mary Cholmondeley’s descriptive powers really impress me. For some reason I always think of the metaphysical poets when I am reading her novels. I would class this as almost a metaphysical conceit.

’ His judgment had been whirled—he told himself it had been whirled, but it had really only been tweaked—from its centre, had performed its giddy orbit, and now the check-string had brought it back to the point from whence it had set out, namely, that she was merely a pretty woman.’

and this..

’ the whole effect had the delicate, conventional perfection of a cleverly touched-up chromo-lithograph. Of course, tastes differ. Some people like chromo-lithographs, others don't. But even those who do are apt to become estranged. They may inspire love, admiration, but never fidelity. Most of us have in our time hammered nails into our walls which, though they now decorously support the engravings and etchings of our maturer years, were nevertheless originally driven in to uphold the cherished, the long since discarded chromos of our foolish youth ‘..

………..’ The poor chromo had fallen violently from its nail. But the nail remained—ready.’

I also liked how she contrasted the characteristics of her main protagonists. For example Hugh and Dick, both at fault in their attitudes towards women but in very different ways. Also Rachel and Hester, cleverly revealed in the flashback to their childhood years, leading to their strong bond of friendship in young adulthood.

’ Because she loved Hester she accepted from her half her slender pin-money. Hester had said, "If I were poor, Rachel, how would you bear it if I would not let you help me?" And Rachel had wept slow, difficult tears, and had given Hester the comfort of helping her. The greater generosity was with Rachel, and Hester knew it’

Regarding Lord and Lady Newhaven, their descriptions felt as if Mary Cholmondeley knew them personally, or at least people like them, they were too intense to be totally from the imagination.

The author’s savageness towards Lady Newhaven was striking, but has she already burst Rachel’s wary bubble of growing affection for Hugh by revealing him to be Lady Newhaven’s lover?

Robin P wrote: "Why do you think Hugh accepted the bargain from Lord Newhaven."

This quote goes a long way towards giving the answer.

’ Is it agreed? Just so! Will you draw?" A swift spasm passed over Hugh's face, and a tiger glint leaped into Lord Newhaven's eyes, fixed intently upon him.’

I think it was a combination of a number of things.

1. Hugh was shocked when he realised that Lord Newhaven knew about the affair he was having with his wife and thus was way off his guard.
2. Hugh realised or believed that Lord Newhaven was the man in the ‘right’ and he was the man in the ‘wrong.’
3. Lord Newhaven was potentially a powerful man and Hugh was relatively insignificant.
4. Lord Newhaven had the psychological advantage at the meeting and the revelation meant that Hugh was cowed in his presence.

It remains to be seen if Hugh will carry out the wager, but whether he does or not, the consequences of the ‘bargain’ will be a huge weight to bear throughout his short/long life.

Trev wrote: "Lovely to be reading Mary Cholmondeley once again. A bit like soaking in a warm aromatic bath whilst eating a spicy curry. "

I love this image, this is exactly how it feels.

To me, some of her scenes take on a cinematographic quality. It is very obvious in the first scene from which you quote: cuts, change of angle, change of distance, tracking - it is all there, with a sort of distinctive colouring through her language. I could even imagine a director using her imagery, e.g. the chromolitograph and the nail.

sabagrey wrote: "Trev wrote: "Lovely to be reading Mary Cholmondeley once again. A bit like soaking in a warm aromatic bath whilst eating a spicy curry. "

I love this image, this is exactly how it feels.

To me, ..."

Yes, it is cinematic, the lack of long descriptions and setups helps with that.

Thanks to Trev for the heads up on George Meredith,
I am now gainfully occupied reading his poetry👍

Neil wrote: "Thanks to Trev for the heads up on George Meredith,
I am now gainfully occupied reading his poetry👍"

A notable contemporary of George Meredith was George Gissing, who, along with Thomas Hardy, collaborated somewhat, at least in terms of themes and ideas.

In 1897 George Gissing wrote The Whirlpool ( one of my favourite Gissing novels.) Without giving away any spoilers the novel focuses on the corrupting effects of London and its society life.

It seems more than just a coincidence that Mary Cholmondeley in Red Pottage, published just two years later, wrote this.

’ Rachel looked out across the miles of roofs which lay below her garret window. The sound was in her ears of that great whirlpool wherein youth and beauty and innocence go down quick day by day. The wilderness of leaden roofs turned suddenly before her eyes into a sullen furrowed sea of shame and crime which, awaiting no future day of judgment, daily gave up its awful dead.’

This group read New Grub Street a while ago. I have also read The Odd Women but I don't remember if it was with the group. Both are rather pessimistic but realistic views of the life of people without means, a bit like the works of Zola.

Here are three quotes which I highlighted. Regarding human nature, I think that they reveal the astute perceptive qualities of Mary Cholmondeley's writing.

‘ For Love has many keys besides that of her own dwelling. Some who know her slightly affirm that she can only open her own cheap patent padlock with a secret word on it that everybody knows. But some who know her better hold that hers is the master-key which will one day turn all the locks in all the world.’

‘Mr. Gresley's voice was of that peculiar metallic note which carries farther than the owner is aware. It rose, if contradicted, into a sort of continuous trumpet-blast which drowned all other lesser voices.’

‘ She grasped the principle that those who have a great love of power and little scope for it must necessarily exercise it in trivial matters. She extended the principle of the newspaper and the letter-bag over her entire intercourse with the Gresleys and never offended in that manner again.’

Finally caught up. This is my first time reading Cholmondeley and I'm enjoying her style too. Thanks for the image of the lighters, Neil; I figured it must be something like that.
I wasn't sure what she meant by the "short upper lip" that was supposed to be attractive. Google only supplied images of philtrums, which I don't think it what she meant, and plastic surgery sites showing pictures that I'm sure don't represent what she meant. Did she mean that the upper lip was shorter than the lower lip so that the person didn't have that football-shaped smile that some people have?

sabagrey wrote: "To me, some of her scenes take on a cinematographic quality"

Good call with the cinematic style there.

Plenty of vivid contrasts drawn with the writing:
Lord/Lady Newhaven;
Lord Newhaven / friend Dick;
Hester / Rachel;
Hester / her brother Mr. Gresley.

Good quotes. I like this one:

Hester was gifted with imagination, and imagination does not find it difficult to read by the shorthand of the expressions and habitual opinions and repressions of others what they occasionally say at full length, and to which they fondly believe they are giving utterance for the first time. Mr. Gresley had said all this many times already by his manner, and it had by its vain repetitions lost its novelty. Mr. Gresley was fortunately not aware of this, for unimaginative persons believe themselves to be sealed books, as hermetically sealed as the characters of others are to themselves.

I was a Literature major some fifty years ago, and I'm deeply ashamed to admit that I hadn't heard of Mary Cholmondeley until I joined The Readers' Review a few weeks ago. Since I enjoy the Victorians immensely, I took a chance on 'Red Pottage' and - well, I loved it. I cannot understand how I could have missed her earlier, except that her books were not easily available even then.

So thank you, Robin, for including this gem among your suggestions. I look forward to many more such unusual and satisfying tips from TRR in the months ahead.

Don't feel bad, I also was a literature major, mostly French, but some English and I knew nothing of this author either. I happened to have accumulated a number of books published by Virago. They used to have dark green covers and started with lesser-known books from the UK. Later they branched out in time and place. (There is a group reading them currently on GR, if anyone is interested.) Anyway, this is one of the books I got at some point at a book sale or other venue.

This cover is better than the cover of the edition I've got :)


I see two GR groups:

Virago Modern Classics:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Virago Book Club:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Bonnie wrote: "This cover is better than the cover of the edition I've got :)


I see two GR groups:

Virago Modern Classics:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/......"

Thanks, I was only aware of the first one.

"Bonnie wrote: "This cover is better than the cover of the edition I've got :)

."



Which character from Red Pottage did the publisher have in mind when they put this stunning piece of art on the front cover?

Maybe the last paragraph of this description of the painting by Jo Meacock provides a hint.

https://batch.artuk.org/discover/stor...

Yes, that is the edition I have. The original Virago books always had art on the cover.

In high school, I wrote an English essay on the Pre-Raphaelites. The imagery and the complex background here are typical of the group.

It is also my first experience of reading MC, and I'm enjoying it very much. As the story progresses and the characters become more distinct, the potential for rivalries and romances abounds. I must admit I'm not too impressed with Hugh so far. He seems debonair, likely handsome, a man of the world, but he doesn't seem to have much conscience. Not only does he have an affair with a married woman and then decide to break it off when she gets too clingy, he also accepts a challenge from the offended husband only to defend his honor.