Victorians! discussion

Brief summary

We learn more of Miss Miggs's character. It's entertaining to read her antics, especially those played on Mr. Tappertit.

Mr. Chester the senior arrives at the Maypole Inn. He sent a message to Mr. George Haredale at the Warren through Barnaby inviting him for a meeting. The landlord of the Inn, John, and his friends speculate about the nature of the meeting. They even think it could even be a duel. But it was only a meeting between Mr. Chester and Mr. Haredale to discuss how they could part Edward Chester and Emma Haredale who are in love. Chester senior and George Haredale are adversaries.

Edward Chester learns of her father's dealings in his affairs. The father and son has a conversation where the son learns father's reasons in parting him from Emma Haredale. He is shocked.

The segment ends with a chapter on the strange man we meet at the Maypole Inn and he accosting the widow, Mrs. Rudge.

We're still learning the characteristics of characters. Mr. Chester looks a villain to me.

Mrs. Rudge's mystery deepens.

Poor Joe is unsuccessful in his attempts to earn favour from both his father and his love interest, Dolly.

So many different threads operate here making the story interesting. Please share you thoughts on this segment.

Ch 9-16
Chapter 10: I found a lovely quote... a nice way Charles Dickens describes  how an old mansion becomes an Inn (Maypole).

It was no longer a home, the fireside had become mercernary bought and sold.
It missed nobody, cared for nobody, had equal  warmth and smiles for all.
God help the man whose heart changes with the world,
...as an old mansion when it becomes an inn.

Nancy wrote: "Ch 9-16
Chapter 10: I found a lovely quote... a nice way Charles Dickens describes  how an old mansion becomes an Inn (Maypole).

It was no longer a home, the fireside had become mercernary bought ..."

So beautifully written. I enjoyed it as well, Nancy. I have quite forgotten how much I enjoyed his writing. This reading is a treat after a long absence.

Nancy wrote: "Ch 9-16
Chapter 10: I found a lovely quote... a nice way Charles Dickens describes  how an old mansion becomes an Inn (Maypole).

It was no longer a home, the fireside had become mercernary bought ..."

I really liked the description as well, as if it was alive..

Piyangie wrote: "Brief summary

We learn more of Miss Miggs's character. It's entertaining to read her antics, especially those played on Mr. Tappertit.

Mr. Chester the senior arrives at the Maypole Inn. He sent ..."

What an ending to chapter 16, frustrated now that I have to wait till Sunday to see how it continues hehe... I also enjoyed how we took a short “break” from the stories and dived into the London life for a bit in chapter 16, helped with the worldbuilding of this novel!

So far I have read thru chapter 12, but as best I can tell we are still sort of in the introductory material since I can’t exs t see a point developing yet, but sort of a few plot threads.

We have the following plot themes (I’m writing them out to keep track of Turk myself- please correct if I’m wrong since I’m new to Dickens):

1. The gang of men who hang around and chat and speculate at the maypole. Including Joe, the uncooperative son and Hugh the stable hand. In this most recent section of the book, the older Chester comes to the maypole to discuss with Mr Hardale keeping son and niece apart.

2. Gabriel Varden and his family, including daughter Dolly and Tappertit the apprentice, and Miggs the chambermaid. Tappettit serms to be in love with Dolly but sneaks out at night. Miggs knows about the sneaking out.

3. The group of renegade apprentices that Tappertit presided over at Stagg’s place. Joe appears to be a member of this group of ‘prentices who despise their masters.

4. Mrs Rudge and Barnaby. Barnaby found the younger Chester and brought him home to recover from injuries inflicted by the highwayman. Mrs Rudge appears to be afraid of something - presumably the highwayman. Barnaby also hangs out some at the Maypike.

I guess there is no way to edit for misspellings?

Beda wrote: "I guess there is no way to edit for misspellings?"

There is an edit under my messages. But I don't see in others. Maybe because I'm not allowed to edit others' messages. If you are using the phone app, see if it's different if you access the web from a computer.

I am writing this from outside the app and I still see no way to edit. I will have to keep that in mind so I don’t leave such confusing posts. 😂 Typically, I look at posts after posting and go in and edit for typos since typing on phones is so inaccurate. I’ll have to get in the habit of doing that before posting in these tiny boxes.

My apologies for the typos above. This is the first time I am using the groups.

Beda wrote: "I am writing this from outside the app and I still see no way to edit. I will have to keep that in mind so I don’t leave such confusing posts. 😂 Typically, I look at posts after posting and go in a..."

No need to apologise, Beda. I'm sorry to hear this. I think it's the group standard. I remember me having the same problem at another group. What I do there now is, if I have typos or any other error, I copy the message and paste it on a new one, edit it there and post it. Then I delete the former erroneous message since I'm allowed to delete. 😀 Hope this helps.

Daryl wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Brief summary

We learn more of Miss Miggs's character. It's entertaining to read her antics, especially those played on Mr. Tappertit.

Mr. Chester the senior arrives at the Mayp..."

You could go ahead, Daryl, provided you keep notes on each section (according to our schedule) so that you could comment. I hate to lose our reading members from the discussion threads. 😀

‘ ‘I knew I should quench her,’ said Sim, rather embarrassed by this circumstance. ‘Of course I was certain it would come to this, but there was nothing else to be done–if I hadn’t eyed her over, she wouldn’t have come down. Here. Keep up a minute, Miggs. What a slippery figure she is! There’s no holding her, comfortably. Do keep up a minute, Miggs, will you?’

Now that Miggs knows about the copied key, I think it will be more like Miggs having her claws in Tappertit than the other way round. Their antics made me laugh out loud.

My first thoughts about Sim becoming a villain in this story have been tempered a little now that Miggs will have the upper hand. But who knows what she will do with her power? She is so smitten with Sim she might do anything to please him ( except helping him with that ‘ fat-faced puss she is, as ever I come across’ , Dolly.

Such a harmonious household. Poor Joe’s flowers tossed away like rubbish and beautiful Dolly excitedly carried away in a ‘chair’ off to a party. Both Dolly and the party are off limits for Joe making him very depressed.

But amidst all this humour there is the darkness. The description of the murder location was chilling.

’ The terrace-garden, dark with the shade of overhanging trees, had an air of melancholy that was quite oppressive. Great iron gates, disused for many years, and red with rust, drooping on their hinges and overgrown with long rank grass, seemed as though they tried to sink into the ground, and hide their fallen state among the friendly weeds. The fantastic monsters on the walls, green with age and damp, and covered here and there with moss, looked grim and desolate. There was a sombre aspect even on that part of the mansion which was inhabited and kept in good repair, that struck the beholder with a sense of sadness; of something forlorn and failing, whence cheerfulness was banished. It would have been difficult to imagine a bright fire blazing in the dull and darkened rooms, or to picture any gaiety of heart or revelry that the frowning walls shut in. It seemed a place where such things had been, but could be no more–the very ghost of a house, haunting the old spot in its old outward form, and that was all.

Much of this decayed and sombre look was attributable, no doubt, to the death of its former master, and the temper of its present occupant; but remembering the tale connected with the mansion, it seemed the very place for such a deed, and one that might have been its predestined theatre years upon years ago. Viewed with reference to this legend, the sheet of water where the steward’s body had been found appeared to wear a black and sullen character, such as no other pool might own; the bell upon the roof that had told the tale of murder to the midnight wind, became a very phantom whose voice would raise the listener’s hair on end; and every leafless bough that nodded to another, had its stealthy whispering of the crime.

What a mixture of light hearted frolicking and deadly mystery this section contained, becoming decidedly darker with the reappearance of the seemingly malevolent stranger.

’ Then there was the watch with staff and lantern crying the hour, and the kind of weather; and those who woke up at his voice and turned them round in bed, were glad to hear it rained, or snowed, or blew, or froze, for very comfort’s sake.

I liked this illustration of the ‘Watch’ man.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchma...

When I came across this paragraph, I was saddened to realise that nothing much had changed.

’ It is no wonder that with these favouring circumstances in full and constant operation, street robberies, often accompanied by cruel wounds, and not unfrequently by loss of life, should have been of nightly occurrence in the very heart of London, or that quiet folks should have had great dread of traversing its streets after the shops were closed. It was not unusual for those who wended home alone at midnight, to keep the middle of the road, the better to guard against surprise from lurking footpads; few would venture to repair at a late hour to Kentish Town or Hampstead, or even to Kensington or Chelsea, unarmed and unattended; while he who had been loudest and most valiant at the supper-table or the tavern, and had but a mile or so to go, was glad to fee a link-boy to escort him home.

The statistics showing crime today in London are quite damning.

https://www.statista.com/topics/4627/...

Trev wrote: "‘ ‘I knew I should quench her,’ said Sim, rather embarrassed by this circumstance. ‘Of course I was certain it would come to this, but there was nothing else to be done–if I hadn’t eyed her over, s..."

I agree with you, Trev. Mr. Tappertit's possibility of becoming a villain was quite dampened by the upperhand Miggs takes in this section. But I fear he is far too cunning and has the art of using anyone to his advantage. We'll have to wait and see.

I also felt sad for Poor Joe. I cannot make out Dolly's feelings for him.

Mr Chester is an unpleasant kind of man underneath his smooth exterior. I hope both our romantic couples - Edward & Emma, Joe & Dolly - will find their way through their different troubles.

There wasn’t much humour in this section, although John Willet is quite amusing. Mainly there is an increasing sense of mystery and malevolence, and Chapter XVI ends on quite a dramatic note.

The book is definitely keeping my attention so far…

Pamela wrote: "Mr Chester is an unpleasant kind of man underneath his smooth exterior. I hope both our romantic couples - Edward & Emma, Joe & Dolly - will find their way through their different troubles.

There..."

Agree there, Pamela. I sense villainy in Mr. Chester. I too hope for a happy ending for our two couples.

I struggled a little to get back into the book after having to take a break between segments one and two. It's my first group read so I will need to figure out if it is better to read the segment at my own pace and then wait a few days before the next segment is "opened" or to read only one chapter per day, which is very short. How do the others do it?

Anyway, things that stood out to me were the struggle between Miggs and Tappertit. This will be very interesting (and possibly funny) to see who has more cunning and will retain the upper hand in that relationship.

I cannot yet make out Mr Chester. He certainly is disagreeable, but I don't know if he is really a villain or just a spoiled gentleman. One of those men that think they have a right to squander away their wife's money and to expect their son to bring in new money through marriage. I expect (hope) there will be a Happy End for Edward and Emma, but if Edward will immediately disregard his father's wishes or will try to do his duty as a son first, remains to be seen.

Do we know why Haredale and Chester don't like each other? I hope I did not forget anything so crucial already 😅

As for poor Joe, I felt so sorry for him. Still, I will need to know more about Dolly before I hope for a happy end. Not sure yet if she deserves him or if he wouldn't be happier with another girl.

Loved many other scenes, Joe's ride into town, the Maypole gang speculating about a duel, Joe meeting Edward Chester. I was impressed with Chapter 16. That stranger appearing all over London, flitting about like a dark shadow, a danger hanging about the city. I had the impression that it was supposed to describe an atmosphere, not just a single man's movements. Something dark brooding in the dark corners.

Will go straight to segment three 😊

Edit: just to confirm that there is an edit button.

Lindenblatt wrote: "I struggled a little to get back into the book after having to take a break between segments one and two. It's my first group read so I will need to figure out if it is better to read the segment a..."

You can read anyway that suits you. Even if you read ahead, that's OK. But if you do, please keep notes so you can join in with the discussion. We'd like to hear thoughts of our readers.

I'm glad there is an edit button. 😀

Lindenblatt wrote: "I struggled a little to get back into the book after having to take a break between segments one and two. It's my first group read so I will need to figure out if it is better to read the segment a..."

About Haredale and Chester, it's an old rivalry. It was only briefly mentioned. I think we'll learn the full content in coming chapters.

Lindenblatt wrote: "I struggled a little to get back into the book after having to take a break between segments one and two. It's my first group read so I will need to figure out if it is better to read the segment a..."

Agree with Piyangie, read at your own pace since we have a week. I normally read all the chapters for that week in a day or two because I’m the sort that can’t stop once I stop haha especially that some chapters are very short.

Agree on Joe and Dolly, she doesn’t seem like she notices him from what I have gathered so far :( hopefully this isn’t true.

I too have been resisting the urge to read ahead. I’m trying to draw it out, but usually on the last day I rationalize it by saying ‘well, I might not have as much time next week!’ So right now I’m on ch 18 and could have been much further.

I know I can’t go too far ahead because the discussions are important.

I do LOVE all the illustrations in this book. I’ve enjoyed all of them and I think they really add a lot to the book. I’m reading the Penguin classics version which is interesting because there are no such illustrations in the Penguin version of Great Expectations. I wonder how many of Dickens books have these, because I think they are very useful.

This section ended on a cliff hanger! I’m hoping the next week will launch us fully into the story. We have definitely seen some interesting scenes, but pulling them all together will be interesting to see.

Beda wrote: "I too have been resisting the urge to read ahead. I’m trying to draw it out, but usually on the last day I rationalize it by saying ‘well, I might not have as much time next week!’ So right now I’m..."

I also prefer to keep to the group's pace as much as possible. So I'll take breaks between the weekly segments, just like the Victorians had to when reading the serial publication 😊

Yes, these illustrations are beautiful indeed. And so detailed! I am reading the Oxford Illustrated Dickens, which contains all 76 of them, and take my time to study each.

I am so eager to find out who the robber is and why Mrs. Rudge reacts to him as she does. I have my suspicions on his identity, so we'll see if I am right at some point. It will be interesting to see if the elder Mr. Chester turns out to be a man who isn't good but not one of the truly evil characters that are so common in Dickens.

I read a chapter each day and two on Saturday so that I more easily keep up with what is going on. I know from experience with Dickens that I find it difficult to keep stories straight if I have 5 or 6 days between reading each section.

Laurie wrote: "I am so eager to find out who the robber is and why Mrs. Rudge reacts to him as she does. I have my suspicions on his identity, so we'll see if I am right at some point. It will be interesting to s..."

I'm also eager to know his identity. I fear he is someone who is closely connected to her. I'm rather sorry for her. She has had a hard life.

Nancy, I love the quote you provided. I somehow missed it.
I think the meeting between Mr. Chester and Mr. Haredale really dominates this section, along with the scenes of young Edward Chester interacting with both of them. Mr. Chester seems too good to be true at first, and indeed he is. Although he gains Haredale's agreement to prevent the romance between Edward and Emma, their later actions prove that they are very different men. Haredale obviously loves his niece and seems to be acting out of a desire to protect her (however misguided he may be). He has a gruff exterior but appears to have a good heart. Chester is suave and outwardly benevolent but is acting only in his own interest. He is broke and wants his son to marry an heiress so that his can continue to live in comfort. He displays absolutely no love for Edward (Ned), nor does he have any sense of remorse about spending all the money he received from his wife. One very comical part of this section was Solomon Daisy's conjecture that Chester and Haredale would fight a duel and the reactions of the Maypole regulars, along with John Willett's obvious cowardice. It struck me that this was another moment in which Mr. Daisy became an important character, one who sees to like the lugubrious in any situation. We also see that although Barnaby is considered an idiot, he is also trusted to deliver messages and run errands. His best friend, other than Grip, is Hugh. I agree with my fellow readers that Hugh is a difficult character to read. He seems lazy and sullen, but he also appears to have a genuine affection for Barnaby. Also, Hugh's backstory is truly awful - no wonder he does not fraternize well with other people!
Of course we are treated to more views of Gabriel's household: MIggs love for Simon who uses her shamelessly; Mrs. Varden's outwardly sweet personality designed to make everyone feel guilty. We also get another glimpse of Dolly who appears to quite a coquette, unaware of Joe's love for her (is she really?).

I am not a big fan of Mr. Chester-he's a narcissist of the first order. He wants his son to marry money so he can spend it.
Poor Ned. His father made sure he wasn't trained for anything, except catching a rich wife! What is he going to do?

The scene with the patrons of the Maypole imagining a duel was funny-also the descriptions of the "best" room.

I feel for Joe Willet, watching Dolly go off to a party. I hope he finds someone who will love him, for it appears that Dolly doesn't.

As for the creepy stranger-who is he?

For group reads, I usually start a week late and have been reading two chapters a day. The more I progress in a book, the harder it is to read at the group's rate-I really want to know what happens!

Rosemarie wrote: "I am not a big fan of Mr. Chester-he's a narcissist of the first order. He wants his son to marry money so he can spend it.
Poor Ned. His father made sure he wasn't trained for anything, except ca..."

I don't like Mr. Chester either, Rosemarie. I hope Edward will find some way to defy his narcissistic father.

I am enjoying the way the characters and backstories are being revealed a little at a time with plenty of room for speculation and supposition. :) The potential romances add a bit of sweetness, and, of course, there’s a measure of comedy. But overall there seems to be a great deal that remains to be seen.

For some reason, I'm not enjoying Dickens humour much in this novel. I guess it's beacuse I dislike some of the characters at whose expense the comedy is created, like Chester and Tappertit.