Victorians! discussion

Brief summary

The stranger demands food and warmth from Mrs. Rudge. It's evident that she had known the man in the past. Barnaby arrives while the man is in the house and he hides to avoid a violent encounter for he is the man who steals and attacks Mr. Edward Chester whom Barnaby saves.

Mr. Edward Chester entrusts Dolly Varden with a letter to be delivered to Emma Haredale. She takes the commission with the approval of her parents. Mr. Varden plans that all three should go to Maypole Inn in Chigwell in the chaise to which, after much persuasion, Mrs. Varden agree. Dolly hands over Edward's letter to Emma and receives an answering letter to be given to Edward. She loses this in her strange encounter with Hugh of Maypole Inn. We learn that Hugh has stolen the letter and the bracelet. (It wasn't clear to me whether Hugh acted on his own accord in stealing the letter or under Mr. Chester's instruction to intercept any communication between Edward and Emma.)

Mr. Chester's character is revealed in more detail. He seems a man who would employ any method to achieve his ends. He uses Hugh and now, Mr. Tappertit have also become a willing tool in his jealousy of Joe Willet.

Hugh of Maypole is turning to be an important character in the story. What did you think of him?

A paradoxical character, he is a mixture of kindness and bitterness. His better side shows in his kindness to Barnaby Rudge and in his loyalty to those he trusts.

Ch 17-24
The Dickensian villians are  always the winner and worth reading. Sir John Chester swirls around many narrative plots in this book. He is THE linchpin...and makes the book more complex...what do we know about him, his past?

I wonder if Chester and Haredale fell out over some moral issue. They certainly have different standards. Haredale had a right to request Emma's letter from Dolly, but did not force it. While Chester had no scruple obtaining it by any means.

Piyangie, I was also confused when it was revealed that Hugh had stolen the letter from Dolly. How did he even know about it? It must have been by Chester's instructions, but these seem to have vaguely referred to anything that might be of interest to him, not this letter specifically...

About Hugh, I am more worried than before. People that bully weaker ones but cower to their superiors are usually dangerous.

I own, I disliked Hugh after reading his bullying of Dolly. I felt sorry for him in previous segments. It looks like he is managed and manipulated by Chester against his better nature. I fear he might end up as a villain like Chester.

Nancy wrote: "Ch 17-24
The Dickensian villians are  always the winner and worth reading. Sir John Chester swirls around many narrative plots in this book. He is THE linchpin...and makes the book more complex...w..."

Quite true, Nancy. His villains are interesting to read than perhaps his heroes. Uriah Heep (David Copperfield), Ralph Nickleby (Nicholas Nickleby) and Mr. Tulkinghorn (Bleak House) come to my mind.

Piyangie wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Ch 17-24
The Dickensian villians are  always the winner and worth reading. Sir John Chester swirls around many narrative plots in this book. He is THE linchpin...and makes the book mo..."
Don't forget....
Name: Wackford Squeers ( wack = very bad) sadistic and abusive headmaster in NN!

The plot is getting more complex with characters having their own hidden agendas. I too was quite shocked with the way Hugh acted with Dolly, that interaction made me changed my mind regarding his character completely.

But it seems that this week reading section was a big win for Mr Chester!! Let’s see how long it lasts

Nancy wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Ch 17-24
The Dickensian villians are  always the winner and worth reading. Sir John Chester swirls around many narrative plots in this book. He is THE linchpin...and ..."

Oh, yes. I completely forgot him! 🙃

I finally managed to catch up, now I will try reading one chapter a day, two on Sundays. I'm really struggling with this book! I've read almost all the other Dickens' novels, I only have Martin Chuzzlewit left, but I only remember such a struggle for Dombey and Son, who knows why? In addition to the first chapter, I also struggled with chapter 8.
I also have the illustrations in my edition and I'm very happy with them!
I don't like Mr. Chester very much, he's one of those characters that sometimes appear in Dickens' novels, people who manage to maintain a high standard of living by their wits. In this case, he relies on Edward marrying for money and not for love, I really want to see how it will end for Mr. Chester because I think Edward will be able to marry Emma.
The scene between Hugh and Dolly really made me feel bad, Hugh came out as an arrogant and evil and dangerous man.

I also lost sympathy for Hugh after his treatment of Dolly, but it seems he has been damaged by his past and has no empathy. The experience of seeing his mother hanged and no one caring except him and a dog is pretty traumatic. But he is no match for Mr Chester, his schemes soon come to nothing.

Daniela wrote: "I finally managed to catch up, now I will try reading one chapter a day, two on Sundays. I'm really struggling with this book! I've read almost all the other Dickens' novels, I only have Martin Chu..."

I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with the book, Daniela. I hope things will pick up for you.

Pamela wrote: "I also lost sympathy for Hugh after his treatment of Dolly, but it seems he has been damaged by his past and has no empathy. The experience of seeing his mother hanged and no one caring except him ..."

Yes. That explains his beastly behavior. He has had a rough life after his mother's death, and nobody to sympathize.

I also feel sorry for what Hugh has endured, but his behavior to Dolly does not make that excusable in my mind. This section clearly established Hugh, as well as Sim and Mr. Chester, as real villains. As to who suggested that Hugh confiscate the letter from Dolly, I believe it was just a chance occurrence. Hugh followed Dolly in order to assault her, she resisted and in her brief struggle with him, she dropped the letter. She didn't realize she had lost it until Joe had rescued her. Also, when Hugh came to Mr. Chester's rooms to deliver the letter, he says that Chester told him to return with his whip when he wanted to be seen on a "certain subject." He then presents the letter. Mr. Chester seems intrigued but not as if he were expecting such a gift in his plans to separate Ned and Emma.
Finally, I want to mention again the interaction between Mrs. Varden and Miggs as another great example of Dickens' ability to write comic scenes. Both women are annoying but with the two of them supporting one another, they are truly funny.

I too am completed this weeks assignment.

Here is how I’ve assigned the characters so far:

Bad guys- Mr Chester, Miggs, Sim Tappertit, Hugh, mystery highwayman

Good guys - Mr Gabriel Varden, Dolly Varden, Emma Haredale, Edward Chester, Mrs Rudge, Barnaby Rudge.

Unknown - Joe Willet, John Willet, Mr Haredale

Comic Relief- Mrs Varden (Martha), sundry dudes at the Maypole, Stagg.

I’m super confused about sim Tappertit and Joe Willet. I get that Tappertit is jealous of Joe because of Dolly. But what about this weird ‘prentice society? Joe Willet is a ‘prentice also, isn’t he? Is he a member of the ‘prentice society? I thought he was.

Also, this mystery highwayman who scared Mrs Rudge and who is asleep at Staggs? What is he all about?

Beda wrote: "I’m super confused about sim Tappertit and Joe Willet. I get that Tappertit is jealous of Joe because of Dolly. But what about this weird ‘prentice society? Joe Willet is a ‘prentice also,..."

I don't think that Joe is a member of the 'prentice society. To me it seemed to be a private club formed by some apprentices that wished to indulge in some secret drinking and gaming. Activities that are usually frowned upon, which is why they have to steal out of the house at night. I assume that Joe is too good to participate in such activities. In any case, he probably spends the little pocket money he has on presents for Dolly. I was surprised that you class him as "unknown"! Well, we'll see.

Well, I think any humour in this section was overshadowed by the evil intentions that are becoming increasingly menacing and quite dangerous for the ‘decent’ characters in our story.

I suppose that the frightening scenes at Mrs, Rudge’s and on that lonely path that Dolly trod between the Maypole and the Warren were an appropriate read for this time of year!

Both events mentioned above had great similarities. They both involved vicious attackers who admitted that they were quite prepared to murder if necessary. Both involved women being forced into compromising positions, leading to them deceiving their own loved ones.

The mysterious stranger, who now knows Barnaby’s identity, is a desperate man and will no doubt exploit his strangle hold on Mrs. Rudge. His ending up at the Apprentices’ club seems ominous to me.



As for the ‘half-human’ Hugh, who seems to have taken on the characteristics of the animals he sleeps with, his disgraceful behaviour towards Dolly, not just the assault/robbery but his sexual advances, has revealed what a dangerous and malevolent force he could be.

It is the equally malevolent Chester who is controlling him, but only for as long as he can supply him with copious supplies of alcohol. If Dickens wanted the reader to have any sympathy for Hugh, by describing his mother’s hanging, it made no impression on me because of the way he jumped on Dolly.



Regarding Tappertit, I am swinging back once more towards him becoming another villainous link in this tale. And, via his Apprentices association, could he also be the link that joins together those dark forces in Chigwell, Clerkenwell and the Temple?

All true, Trev. Thanks for pointing out the similarities between the two attacks. I hadn't noticed it explicitly, but them being just a few chapters apart is probably not a coincidence.

Let's see how long Hugh can be controlled, even with alcohol. I can see him becoming a 'wild beast' that's uncontrollable and dangerous to everybody.

Trev wrote: "As for the ‘half-human’ Hugh, who seems to have taken on the characteristics of the animals he sleeps with, his disgraceful behaviour towards Dolly, not just the assault/robbery but his sexual advances, has revealed what a dangerous and malevolent force he could be...."

I fully agree with you, Trev. He will be the most dangerous character out of all the villains.

Beda wrote: "I too am completed this weeks assignment.

Here is how I’ve assigned the characters so far:

Bad guys- Mr Chester, Miggs, Sim Tappertit, Hugh, mystery highwayman

Good guys - Mr Gabriel Varden, Do..."

Joe is not an apprentice, Beda. He only works for his father who runs Maypole Inn.
I would put Joe Willet and Mr. Haredale as good guys for now.
Mystery man is becoming an interesting mystery. I hope the revelation is worth the mystery. 😀

I like your comparison of Mrs. Rudge's assault with that of Dolly's. I missed the similarity between the two events.

Another thing I’ve noticed is how skillfully Dickens is drawing together the strings that connect the various characters. There are quite a few connections now, but the most obvious one is that many of the characters now have to Mr. Chester: Edward (of course), Hugh, Sim, Mr. Haredale, John Willett, Mrs. Rudge (only a brief mention of their conversation), and Barnaby. The other big set of connections is the ominous stranger to Mrs. Rudge, Barnaby, Gabriel, Ned, Sim, John and Joe Willett. It’s always fun to go through a Dickens story and see how he does this.

Hugh's behaviour with Dolly really surprised me and made me think twice about what he would be capable of, which includes murder!
His connection with Chester can't be good for Edward and Emma.

My favourite character so far is Joe Willet-he's definitely a good guy!

His opposite is Simon Tappertit, who is going to create a lot of mischief for Dolly and Joe.

The slimiest character is Mr. Chester-I hope he gets what he deserves-nothing good!

Slimy, indeed! Also, something of a sociopath, I believe. His final words in Chapter 24 are filled with foreboding.

The story picked up a lot for me in this section. Although much remains a mystery, we finally see elements of a plot. Plus, I’m starting to like several of the characters and care about what happens to them.

I feel we have lot of bad guys in this Dickens novels. So far we have, Mr. Chester, Mr. Tappertit and Hugh. And as Rosemarie have said, Chester is the Slimiest!

Renee wrote: "The story picked up a lot for me in this section. Although much remains a mystery, we finally see elements of a plot. Plus, I’m starting to like several of the characters and care about what happen..."

Now that you've mentioned about the connection to the characters, I suddenly realise that I'm not so bonded with any character. I guess, I'm just carried away by the pace and excitement of the story. I must slow down and look deeper. 😀

Piyangie wrote: "I feel we have lot of bad guys in this Dickens novels. So far we have, Mr. Chester, Mr. Tappertit and Hugh. And as Rosemarie have said, Chester is the Slimiest!"

I think you have hit on a nail here. There are a lot of bad characters in this novel, which makes it difficult for me to care much for the narration. I was wondering why this book feels different than other Dickens' books. I hope we'll hear more about the good ones, even if bad things happen to them.

In chapter 23, I was surprised at how much I found Hugh repulsive and disgusting compared to Mr. Chester, while being aware intellectually that Mr. Chester was the most evil of the two. Lulled by Chester’s easy manners! Ugh!

Peyton wrote: "In chapter 23, I was surprised at how much I found Hugh repulsive and disgusting compared to Mr. Chester, while being aware intellectually that Mr. Chester was the most evil of the two. Lulled by C..."

I think that's because Mr. Chester is subtle in his cunning and wicked ways. Hugh, on the other hand, is an uncouth man so his conduct reflects his uncivilised nature. And that we find more repulsive than Mr. Chester's subtle manipulations.

Hugh is an ox - very large, with no subtlety. Sir Chester is a poisonous snake, lurking in the weeds and ready to strike without warning.

Also, Hugh is the more immediate threat. He’s the one most likely to beat/rape/murder in the heat of the moment. (And, maybe, pay the price of his impulsive violence.)


Whereas, Chester might be more likely to see that you and all your loved ones get beaten/raped/murdered/destroyed. Especially if he sees a benefit to himself in it.

And Chester will not have to pay the price if anything bad happens.

Exactly, Rosemarie! They were the privileged lot, immune from any kind of punishment.