The Catholic Book Club discussion

1. Use this question to share your thoughts and comments that arise while reading the novel, "along the way." Or to discuss topics not raised by other questions.

I will follow the discussion with interest but the last Michael D. O'Brien's books were very Cold for me i expected much more of Michael D. O'Brien. With all "Father Elijah: An Apocalypse" is a masterpiece.

Happy All Hallow Eve 💕 for everybody especially the people who posted comments in this discussion.

Michael O'Brien is a master. This is another example of this writer's God given ability to tell a story.

This is the trailer of the novel i share with you
https://youtu.be/HJSqcZ_jYnQ?si=tlCv0...

I was going to skip this one but I downloaded the kindle sample and now I’m hooked :-)

I'm absolutely not a sci-fi reader, but I went out and bought this one anyway, just in case. Boy, it's a big one! 😨

I will follow this discussion with a big interest 👀.

I am generally enjoying the book, though there are a couple glitches that I have found irritating.

The passengers, consisting largely of scientists and engineers are surprised to learn that little is known about the planet they are voyaging to - that all the information publicly provided about the planet was sheer fiction. The first probe to Alpha Centauri was launched eight years before the ship was to depart. The ship has a 9 year journey. Even if the probe traveled as fast (O'Brien notes it is slower), it would take 9 years to reach Alpha Centauri, then 4.3 years for communications to arrive back on Earth, so there was no possible way for them to know anything from the probe. Yet none of the passengers, not even the Nobel Prize winners, had a clue that everything they had been told about the planet they were traveling to had been made up.

Good science fiction requires a suspension of disbelief, a sense of "yeah, that could happen" involving systems and technologies that don't currently exist and may contradict our current understanding of physics. I count it a serious flaw when the author writes something that yanks you out of the story with a feeling of "wait a minute, that makes no sense."

Similarly, limitations should be explained - they accelerate for about 6 months to get to 1/2 light speed, cruise for 8 years, then decelerate for another 6 months. But why not continue accelerating. Even if they reach a point of diminishing returns, any increase in speed shortens their voyage. Not a huge issue, but I find unanswered scientific and technical questions annoying - even if it's just a made-up limitation in the physics.

And the first interplanetary spaceship, especially one this size, will be built in space, using resources mined from asteroids and processed in space. No reason to build and lift something that massive from the bottom of the Earth's gravity well - even if you do invent anti-gravity propulsion to make it happen.

I am nearly halfway down the book and must say that so far I am less than impressed by it. Too many pages to say very little, wooden characters and stilted dialogue...I am hoping it will improve once they reach their destination.

Richard wrote: "I am nearly halfway down the book and must say that so far I am less than impressed by it. Too many pages to say very little, wooden characters and stilted dialogue...I am hoping it will improve on..."

Although I was the one who recommended Michael D'O Brien's book recently, the last books I read him left me very cold. In my opinion it is very far from the level it showed with the saga of the children of the last days. Especially the novels of Father Elijah: An Apocalypse. On paper, this novel seemed by its plot to be a fascinating idea.

John wrote: "I am generally enjoying the book, though there are a couple glitches that I have found irritating.

The passengers, consisting largely of scientists and engineers are surprised to learn that little..."

He did not know where he could have gotten the scientific information, or who could have advised Michael D. O'Brien on this question. Since I have no idea about science, I have to keep quiet. But in this case it should be clarified that Michael D. O'Brien is not a scientist, he is a writer and also a painter. On scientific issues, I believe that Professor Manuel Alfonseca is the most appropriate person to tell us and explain to us the failures he may have I admit that I have a bit of a hard time with hard science fiction. I am more of John's (our moderator's) opinion that I enjoy a good argument more than more scientific issues. In fact, I think one of my favorite science fiction writers is Poul Anderson, because he is the one who least overwhelms you with scientific questions (many of his stories could enter the realm of fantasy or historical novels) that can take you out of history and, unfortunately, I don't have much idea about. I like science fiction more as a set. I usually look for a good story and moral dilemmas. PS. I do not deny that there may be novels that address technical and scientific issues that can be very good.

John wrote: "The passengers, consisting largely of scientists and engineers are surprised to learn that little is known about the planet they are voyaging to - that all the information publicly provided about the planet was sheer fiction...."

The probes, at half the distance from Alpha Centauri, could have sent information about the planet. They could have got it by means of telescopes, and being nearer, they could discover something. At half the distance, they'd get four times more information than from the Earth (information is also inversely proportional to the square of distance). However, you are right. The novel should have explained this and doesn't.

John wrote: Similarly, limitations should be explained - they accelerate for about 6 months to get to 1/2 light speed, cruise for 8 years, then decelerate for another 6 months. But why not continue accelerating.

This is easier: they carried a finite amount of energy. Enough to accelerate, decelerate, then accelerate and decelerate in the return trip, but not to accelerate more. And traveling at half the speed of light, any small increase of speed would require a greater amount of energy. But again, the book should have explained this.

John wrote: And the first interplanetary spaceship, especially one this size, will be built in space, using resources mined from asteroids and processed in space.

I also thought this when I read that the ship had been built on the ground.

The science part of the book is not detailed at all. Discoveries like anti-gravity, which make the trip possible, are only mentioned and never explained. So I don't consider this hard science fiction.

However, I thoroughly enjoyed the characters interactions, and the topics of their dialogues. They remind me of great real-life conversations I have had with friends. I think this is the main point of the book.

I will try to read the first 100 pages. I can not but the book it is Too expensive for me bebidas the last foreign book that i bought the custom caught me a big part of my money 😢😭.

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "The passengers, consisting largely of scientists and engineers are surprised to learn that little is known about the planet they are voyaging to - that all the information publicly pro..."

Regarding information about the planet - they didn't have it. This was the shock he references - as scientists, so of them ought to have realized that they simply didn't have the technology to have the information they had been being provided.

Re limitations of energy - sure, but given the size of the ship, it seems a trivial problem to increase the size a bit more to save time on the trip. My solution would have been to invent a diminishing returns limitation that caps the speed of a ship at some fraction of the speed of light.

John wrote: "Re limitations of energy - sure, but given the size of the ship, it seems a trivial problem to increase the size a bit more to save time on the trip. "

O.K., let's make the calculation.

Let M be the net mass to be accelerated. By applying the equations of special relativity, we can compute the mass of fuel needed to accelerate to 0.5xc, decelerate, accelerate and decelerate again (during the return trip). The result is approximately equal to 7xM. Which means that if the net weight of the ship is 1000 tons (for instance) 7000 tons of fuel would be needed, assuming all the mass of the fuel is converted into energy.

Now let's compute the amount of fuel needed to reach a speed of 0.75xc. The result is approximately equal to 50xM. Which means that 50,000 tons of fuel would be needed.

The size of the ship should be increased about seven times to accommodate the extra fuel. So it's not "increasing the size a bit more."

I'd say that even 0.5xc would probably be unattainable.

Things are much worse if not all the mass of the fuel is converted into energy. Remember that the sun converts into energy just 0.7% of the mass.

I published these calculations in my book La Vida En Otros Mundos ("Life in other worlds," published in 1982 and 1996), where I used as an example a trip to Alpha Centauri :-)

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "Re limitations of energy - sure, but given the size of the ship, it seems a trivial problem to increase the size a bit more to save time on the trip. "

O.K., let's make the calculatio..."

In this regard, I believe that the Professor sent me a fictional story about an expedition to Alpha Centauri. I remember that its protagonist was named the same as the protagonist of two of his novels of the solar system and they generated humorous comments about a certain character who would be widowed. I had been interested in this novel for a long time. Voyage to Alpha Centauri Michael D. O'Brien and proposed to the Professor several alternatives. 1º That they will never leave Earth like the movie of Planet of the Apes, 2º That the ship was destroyed and did not reach Alpha Centauri and, three, that it finally reached Alpha Centauri. I found the Professor's scientific calculations very interesting. It's good to have a scientist as a co-moderator of this group. Incidentally, Orson Scott Card has already raised many of these objections in his book How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy. I have to leave you because I have to write the review of my friend La Estrella del Tiempo Jaime Blanch Queral . But I will continue to pay attention to this discussion.

A few more data about the trip:

Speed_Duration(E.t.)_Duration(S.t.)_Fuel mass
0.4xc__12 years_____11 years_____4.5xM
0.5xc__10 years______9 years_____7xM
0.75xc__8 years______6.5 years___50xM
Where E.t. means Earth time and S.t. means Ship time. M is net ship mass.
Values are approximate.
Fuel mass is supposed to be fully converted into energy. If this is not true, for instance, using nuclear fusion H->He as in the sun, duration values would be the same, but fuel mass becomes prohibitive.
My impression is that with nuclear fusion the speed would never go beyond 0.1xc, which would make the trip duration too long (over 43 years each way).

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "Re limitations of energy - sure, but given the size of the ship, it seems a trivial problem to increase the size a bit more to save time on the trip. "

O.K., let's make the calculatio..."

Okay, I drop this criticism. Thank you. :-)

In my favorite novel by Poul Anderson, Orbit Unlimited, the trip takes place also at a speed equal to 0.5xc, as in this novel. However, in that novel the target star is not Alpha Centauri, but e-Eridani, 20 light years away from Earth. This means that the trip takes over 40 years, which makes it necessary to hibernate the travelers, who take two-year turns out of hibernation to control the ship.

One half the speed of light seems to be a standard in this kind of science fiction.

I must say it did get noticeably better when the ship landed in Nova.

Richard wrote: "I must say it did get noticeably better when the ship landed in Nova."

I'm very happy that the novel has improved, because I like that the books I recommend are liked by people. However, in this case he understood that people did not like it, since the last two books he had read to Michael D. O'Brien had left me quite cold.

Manuel wrote: "A few more data about the trip:

Speed_Duration(E.t.)_Duration(S.t.)_Fuel mass
0.4xc__12 years_____11 years_____4.5xM
0.5xc__10 years______9 years_____7xM
0.75xc__8 years______6.5 years___50xM
Wher..."
Very interesting this data that you offer about technical issues.
Manuel wrote: "In my favorite novel by Poul Anderson, Orbit Unlimited, the trip takes place also at a speed equal to 0.5xc, as in this novel. However, in that novel the target star i..."

About this rather stupid question. If the crew members in Poul Anderson's story hibernate, does it mean that they do not age, or is there a reason for them to hibernate? In my ignorance I have heard that due to the Theory of Relativity the forty years would pass for the inhabitants of the planet who saw them leave, but not for the crew. I didn't quite believe it, because I think time would pass for everyone, but it must be remembered that I am very ignorant on these issues. I'm talking about the phenomenon of Washington Irving's novel and his novelRip Van Winkle and the Legend of Sleepy Hollow they come back the same age they left with, but time has passed for the others.

Fonch wrote: "If the crew members in Poul Anderson's story hibernate, does it mean that they do not age, or is there a reason for them to hibernate?"

At a speed 0.5xc, the trip to a star 20 light-years away would take 40 years Earth time. The equivalent ship time would be around 35 years. This time is too long for a trip without hibernation. Nobody would resist it. So they hibernate for 33 years and are on duty for 2 years making turns, which is acceptable. During hibernation they don't age at all.

Richard wrote: "I am nearly halfway down the book and must say that so far I am less than impressed by it. Too many pages to say very little, wooden characters and stilted dialogue...I am hoping it will improve on..."

I, on the other hand, enjoyed the dialogues between the characters, because they remind me of enjoyable conversations I have had in real life, with people quite similar to Neil and his friends. :)

Mariangel wrote: "I, on the other hand, enjoyed the dialogues between the characters, because they remind me of enjoyable conversations I have had in real life, with people quite similar to Neil and his friends."

And again, I agree with Mariangel. I found the first few pages somewhat dry, but have enjoyed the book and the characters very much.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "If the crew members in Poul Anderson's story hibernate, does it mean that they do not age, or is there a reason for them to hibernate?"

At a speed 0.5xc, the trip to a star 20 light-..."

But, a question: Why would no one resist that trip without hibernation? Is it because of a lack of resources? Why is space inhospitable? Because of the low temperatures and the pressure? Why would routine drive astronauts crazy who couldn't be locked up in a spacecraft for 40 years? Which of these would be the cause of hibernation being necessary?

I'm sorry I can't read it, but the book would cost me a lot of money. The last foreign book I ordered. It cost me a lot of money .

Fonch wrote: "Why would no one resist that trip without hibernation?"

Your last reason is the good one. Nobody could resist 40 years on a trip to the stars. Even 9 years, as in the novel being read just now, would probably be too much.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Why would no one resist that trip without hibernation?"

Your last reason is the good one. Nobody could resist 40 years on a trip to the stars. Even 9 years, as in the novel being rea..."

I think it could be done without hibernation, but it would be one-way, in a generation ship, designed as a self-sufficient village or small town. It would not work for passengers, so everyone would have to have a job It would in short be a colony ship. Unlike the current book, it could only be sent after probes had identified and confirmed a viable planet.

John wrote: "I think it could be done without hibernation, but it would be one-way, in a generation ship, designed as a self-sufficient village or small town."

In the novel I was commenting (Orbit Unlimited) that solution would have complicated things by forcing them to have children on the way. After a 35 year trip, all the adults in the trip (most of those traveling) would be too old when they arrived at Rustum (the planet they were going to) to face the threats of colonizing a not-so-similar to Earth planet (there were important differences, dealt with in the novel).

Hibernation made sure that at their arrival they were only two years older than when they started.

My review: this book is, unfortunately, a missed opportunity. While there’s a potentially powerful story buried within its pages, it’s buried so deeply under unnecessary length and irrelevant details that the narrative struggles to shine. At its core, the tale of an ancient, Baal-worshipping civilisation swept away by the arrival of Christ holds great potential. But this has been told far more effectively elsewhere—Yeats, in just a few haunting verses, captures the essence far better:

"A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds."

The first half of the book is almost entirely irrelevant and could have been condensed into two paragraphs. The central situation is drawn out unnecessarily, and the ending feels tacked on, adding nothing of value to the story. It should have concluded with the death of Hoyos—anything after that is superfluous.

The prose itself is competent but unremarkable, lacking the spark to elevate the material. Additionally, the details feel poorly thought out, failing to create the immersive world or cohesive narrative this story deserves.

Ultimately, this could have been an excellent short story, or even a novella. As a novel, it overstays its welcome and underserves its themes. Two stars for the glimmers of potential that peek through, but I can’t recommend this one.

a case in point of poorly thought details: I am afraid that with the numbers that remain in the planet instead of the thriving Christian community the author depicts we should expect a lot of leporine lips and mandibular prognathism

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Why would no one resist that trip without hibernation?"

Your last reason is the good one. Nobody could resist 40 years on a trip to the stars. Even 9 years, as in the novel being rea..."

Yes, I admit that it is a long time. It doesn't seem natural to me to be locked up for so long. But there are people who have lived locked up in prisons who have lived forty or fifty years. What is the difference in this case? I apologize if the question is stupid. I just want to know. There must be more to it than confinement. Is it true that if you hibernate you don't get old? I can't believe it. The passage of time should affect the sleeper as well as the awake one.

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "I think it could be done without hibernation, but it would be one-way, in a generation ship, designed as a self-sufficient village or small town."

In the novel I was commenting ([book..."

Rustum, how curious that name reminds me of a poem by [author:Matthew Arnold|53451] Shorab and Rustum

Richard wrote: "My review: this book is, unfortunately, a missed opportunity. While there’s a potentially powerful story buried within its pages, it’s buried so deeply under unnecessary length and irrelevant detai..."

It's a very interesting critique Richard and, looking at my latest readings of Michael D. O'Brienwas what he feared was going to happen. When I proposed this book I didn't know it. He was fascinated by the wonderful novel "Father Elijah: An Apocalypse" and, I thought, with this material, Michael D. O'Brien could have written a spectacular novel. He was sorry I was wrong. When the Professor Manuel Alfonsecatold me about the cult of Baal I did not like it at all. They were supposed to find something new, as happened in "The Sparrow" or James Blish's "A Case of Conscience" and not something that comes from our world. I would advise you one thing. You give too many details of the plot and there are people who have not yet read it. . I propose one thing that you edit the comment, post your review on Goodreads and then share the link to the review so that people who have not yet read it will not burst the plot. It is advice said without any malice. I apologize if the novel has not been good. When I recommended it, I thought it was going to be a much better book than it seems to have been. Sometimes a book seems very promising and, I really wanted to read this, but when you read it at the end it turns out that it does not live up to the expectations that one has created. It's happened to me a lot. The good thing about this is that it has at least led to a very good discussion.

Richard wrote: "a case in point of poorly thought details: I am afraid that with the numbers that remain in the planet instead of the thriving Christian community the author depicts we should expect a lot of lepor..."

Could that be due to inbreeding? By the way, I have a little prognathism. I think the Professor once told me about a story about some missionaries who go to a planet to evangelize the aliens and, in the end, the missionaries leave because in the end that civilization knew more about Christianity than the missionaries. It sounds to me that the story belonged to Ray Bradbury's "The Martian Chronicles", but let the Professor correct me. In Walter M. Miller Jr.'s "A Canticle for Leibowitz" a part of humanity migrates to a planet before the catastrophe occurs, although he did not know if it is Alpha Centaur. There is a kind of suspicion in the hypothetical case that there is intelligent extraterrestrial life to evangelize them. I am very clear about it, I would do it.

Fonch wrote: "Is it true that if you hibernate you don't get old? I can't believe it. The passage of time should affect the sleeper as well as the awake one."

Yes, it is true. Ask your father, he should know :-)

Fonch wrote: "Rustum, how curious that name reminds me of a poem by Matthew Arnold Shorab and Rustum"

Anderson's novel does not say why they gave the name Rustum to the planet, but I wouldn't wonder if it was because of Arnold's poem.

Fonch wrote: "I think the Professor once told me about a story about some missionaries who go to a planet to evangelize the aliens and, in the end, the missionaries leave because in the end that civilization knew more about Christianity than the missionaries. It sounds to me that the story belonged to Ray Bradbury's "The Martian Chronicles", but let the Professor correct me."

Yes, it was in "The Martian Chronicles," in a short story (The Fire Balloons) that is not included in many editions of the book.

Fonch wrote: "In Walter M. Miller Jr.'s "A Canticle for Leibowitz" a part of humanity migrates to a planet before the catastrophe occurs, although I do not know if it is Alpha Centaur."

In this novel, humanity has started to create colonies in other worlds (no data are given about which stars). The expedition leaves the Earth to go "to the colonies" and keep the Catholic Church there.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Rustum, how curious that name reminds me of a poem by Matthew Arnold Shorab and Rustum"

Anderson's novel does not say why they gave the name Rustum to the planet, but ..."

He took advantage of the fact that I had to make some delayed arrangements to answer some posts of this discussion that I had delayed. It's possible, but I found it curious and I had to mention it to raise the level of the colloquium ;-)

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I think the Professor once told me about a story about some missionaries who go to a planet to evangelize the aliens and, in the end, the missionaries leave because in the end that ci..."

I apologize for the mistake I suppose I said Alpha Centaur, because the subconscious betrayed me and, I thought it was the closest destination to which the earthlings of Walter M. Miller Jr.'s novel could go.

In the end, I couldn't ask my father if hibernation slows aging, but I could put on record a curious fact. There is a novel called "The Aviator" by a very interesting Russian writer named Eugene Vodolazkin (This author's novel reminded me a lot of the novel of my always adored Juan Manuel de Prada because of the theme of memory and, because the hero was not what he seemed to be, which is also a constant in the literary work of the Spanish writer) who more or less undergoes an experiment that makes him hibernate and keeps him young, but just like the film by Mel Gibson Jaimie Lee Curtis and Elijah Wood Forever Young this causes the speed of aging after waking up to increase detrimental to his locomotor capacity and, neuronal.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Is it true that if you hibernate you don't get old? I can't believe it. The passage of time should affect the sleeper as well as the awake one."

Yes, it is true. Ask your father, he ..."

How do we know this? Human beings don't hibernate.

Richard wrote: "a case in point of poorly thought details: I am afraid that with the numbers that remain in the planet instead of the thriving Christian community the author depicts we should expect a lot of lepor..."

My example is (view spoiler)[Hoyos' atrocious behavior with the pistol and the lack of thought by the author on consequences. Hoyos blasts away in a crowed hanger and no one is hit, not directly and not by a ricochet or spalling? And then the captain returns the pistol to him even though he has demonstrated that he is unstable? That's bad enough, but in addition, the author treats self-defense and defense of others as impermissible, as if pacifism was a mandate of Catholicism. (hide spoiler)]

John wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Is it true that if you hibernate you don't get old? I can't believe it. The passage of time should affect the sleeper as well as the awake one."

Yes, it is true. Ask y..."

It is a good question John :-)

John wrote: "Richard wrote: "a case in point of poorly thought details: I am afraid that with the numbers that remain in the planet instead of the thriving Christian community the author depicts we should expec..."

I suggest that Richard wrote a review and he shared the link.

John wrote: "How do we know this? Human beings don't hibernate."

True, but we know it by analogy. And in sci-fi we are speaking about a much deeper kind of hibernation than other mammals experience.

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "How do we know this? Human beings don't hibernate."

True, but we know it by analogy. And in sci-fi we are speaking about a much deeper kind of hibernation than other mammals experience."

With respect, I suggest that we "think" it by analogy, rather than "know" it.

And this is one of those circumstances where I think we should recognize the fiction aspect of science fiction. :-)

Human beings do not, by nature, hibernate. I suspect, that if some technology is developed that can force hibernation on people, then two things will eventuate: (1) there will be some significant adverse effect from the hibernation; (2) such hibernation will eventually become the preferred way to imprison the unwieldy.