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Weekly TLS > What are we reading? 27/01/2024

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message 1: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the new thread.

I hope no-one in the UK has suffered from the latest storm.

As always, good reading to all!


message 2: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments re Roberts post on that musuem in Reykjavik, i went there too and found it fascinating to see the Icelandic female population was mostly of Gaelic/ Irish descent, unlike the male population

With its small population still, we have in Iceland a preserved viking raiding based DNA pool and that museum has access to almost the entire nations heritage due to the population being so small


message 3: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Thanks as always G.


Windy here in South Derbyshire during the storm, but nothing to worry about.Hope the same for everyone else.


message 4: by AB76 (last edited Jan 27, 2025 08:01AM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments As the last week of January dawns, three new books started and all are promising, with one to be started

In The Liar by Martin A Hansen a Danish novel from 1942, we have a ice bound island somewhere south of Copenhagen and its people, observed by the ageing parish clark and schoolteacher. He walks his pointer, lusts after a beautiful local woman and observes what he thinks may be the first signs of spring, less fog, the ice starting to break. Knowing he is " a liar", it feels slippery and rather odd but the prose and style is majestically good so far.

Equally impressive is Never Did The Fire. by Damiela Elitit(2011), a Chilean author. Her prose is wonderful, right away, though the translators medium of course, i have been gripped by the short chapters, low on dialogue, strong on narrative.

Diarmuid Maculloch is my favourite religious writer, i have consumed a few of his witty, sharp studies of the english church and Tudor Church Militant covers the brief reign of Edward VI, who was king between Henry VIII and Bloody Mary.He presents the case that Edward and his advisors created the basis of Anglican worship and liturgy( a framework more accurately), that preceded the pioneering days of Elizabeth, The Virgin Queen

Lastly, i have Mavis Gallant's Paris Notebooks which include her writing on 1968, which has intrigued me. I chose to read this before i delve into her fiction


message 5: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone, and welcome to the new thread.

I hope no-one in the UK has suffered from the latest storm.

As always, good reading to all!"


Thanks for the new thread - we're OK in west Wales though I think a couple of days ago some smaller roads were closed with trees down and people in some parts lost power.

I see that "US President Donald Trump is expected to officially move to remove diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives from the defence department" (BBC report) - Bigots'R'Us, or what?


message 6: by AB76 (last edited Jan 27, 2025 08:56AM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone, and welcome to the new thread.

I hope no-one in the UK has suffered from the latest storm.

As always, good reading to all!"

Thanks for the new thread - we're OK in ..."


the local river here is very high, though with the flood defences from the early 1970s, it is well contained. saying that it seems to be flooding more and more. though the last major floods were in Autumn 2000, where all the records were set.


message 7: by Robert (new)

Robert Rudolph | 464 comments Thanks for the new thread. Here in western Washington, we've had clear-but-chilly days and cold frosty nights.


message 8: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "the local river here is very high, though with the flood defences from the early 1970s, it is well contained. saying that it seems to be flooding more and more. though the last major floods were in Autumn 2000, where all the records were set."

On French TV last night they were reporting more floods - and pointed out that it had been exceptionally wet since Autumn 2023 (o or hardly any dry weeks since then, apparently) - and I guess it's been the same in the UK. The water table is full so when it rains there is nowhere for the water to go.

It's at moments like this that I'm glad that we live some way up a steep hill! Our place in France is on sloping ground and has been mainly OK except for the fact that on two occasions we have suffered from mudslides coming from neighbouring farm fields - and it's really not that steep... the result of the removal of hedges and overuse of the land, probably. On one occasion part of our fence was knocked over; the other time the yard - but not the house - filled with a layer of mud.


message 9: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the local river here is very high, though with the flood defences from the early 1970s, it is well contained. saying that it seems to be flooding more and more. though the last major f..."

those Valencia floods last autumn were a real warning i think, a very dry place from June to October but wetter in winter, suddenly just as autumn kicked in, you had almost the entire winters rain in a few days, when the drier parts of the continent are suffering from flooding, something is going badly wrong...


message 10: by Robert (new)

Robert Rudolph | 464 comments I've ordered a copy of a book I read decades ago-- Alan Drury's Advise and Consent, which established the Washington thriller.


message 11: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
Thanks for the new thread, GP.

We have had a long stretch of cold weather, not unusual at all for January, and rather beautiful clear blue skies, with an occasional arctic blast (mid-day temps not rising above 15F or minus 9C). What we haven’t had much of this winter is precipitation, which we need to fill up the water table in the spring, and to supply our well. A certain amount of snow but no rain to speak of. It’s worrying.

I’ve just finished North Woods by Daniel Mason (2023). He is an assistant professor of psychiatry at Stanford and also, on the evidence of this book, a talented novelist. It is the cleverly worked story of a house and land in the woods of Western Massachusetts, made up of a string of linked episodes from the time of an officer returning from the French and Indian Wars to plant apple trees, through to the anxieties of the modern day occupants. Each episode is told in a different voice – a farewell letter, a ballad, a tale of a fugitive slave hunter, an address to a historical society, a lurid true crime newspaper report, and so on. I thought it was very accomplished. Every character comes alive and, without becoming unduly supernatural, it strongly evokes a spirit of place. I enjoyed it a lot.


message 12: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments I haven't read many books so far in 2025, partly because I've been both busy and tired, but also because the books I have been reading in Volker Kutscher's Gereon Rath series are on the long side - 500+ pages. I've just finished the third one - Goldstein and will now pause the series for a while - two more to go - and read some other stuff.

This one is set in 1930 in Berlin - an American gangster of German origin - the eponymous Goldstein - has arrived. Is he in town to carry out a hit on someone? Rath is told to keep him under close surveillance. In the meantime, the SA, Nazis, other right wing groups and the Communists are making the city difficult to govern.

Naturally, things turn out to be far more complicated that they seem at first, and Rath as well as his girlfriend Charly and several other cops are hard pressed to get to the bottom of the various crimes and murders which occur.

It's a well plotted story and the characters have some life to them, without possessing great depth in the portrayals. We get a feel for life in the city as the Nazis and other groups start to flex their muscles, though again without going in to the politics too deeply. Good entertainment overall, though as with several other authors we get too much about street names or the train system - unless you know Berlin well (me - not at all) these details don't mean much.

Next I'm going to read a French book in parallel with something 'lighter' so I can switch when the going gets tough (!). For the book in English, I've chosen and just started a recent Easy Rawlins tale by Walter Mosley - Farewell, Amethystine. Though I have been less taken with the recent Easy books - because he's now so comfortably off - this one starts brilliantly. Within a few pages, we have some social history - it's set in 1969, and Easy's associates are discussing Angela Davis and her sacking by UCLA for being a communist... which plays in to one of my great pleasures - disappearing down rabbit holes to research background. Here, I soon reminded myself (and learnt new info) about Davis and what happened at that time, as well as a digression into the ideas of the Frankfurt School, Marcuse etc. Fascinating.

In addition, we have an (off-page) 'disappearance' put down to Easy's dangerous friend 'Mouse', and this lovely sentence:

The potential client was wearing an ivory-colored dress that had a high collar and a knee-level hem that flared just a bit as if maybe responding to an errant breeze.

The final phrase - "as if maybe responding to an errant breeze" turns a tidy piece of description into something altogether better - and I just love the inclusion of the 'maybe'. A real pleasure.


message 13: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments While i havent read the Scurati novel its based on, the tv series Mussolini: Son of the Century is coming to Sky Atlantic and it looks very interesting. i'm a huge italophile, though not a fan of fascism obviously but Mussolini is a fascinating figure


message 14: by Gpfr (last edited Jan 29, 2025 05:14AM) (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
AB76 wrote: "While i havent read the Scurati novel its based on, the tv series Mussolini: Son of the Century is coming to Sky Atlantic and it looks very interesting. i'm a huge italophile, though not a fan of f..."

I expect I wrote about them at the time, but I very much enjoyed Iris Origo's books: her two war diaries and her "part of a life", Images and Shadows. I also found interesting the biography of her by Caroline Moorehead.


message 15: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "While i havent read the Scurati novel its based on, the tv series Mussolini: Son of the Century is coming to Sky Atlantic and it looks very interesting. i'm a huge italophile, though n..."

i read the first of her war diaries and liked it

Mussolini is a far more interesting character than Hitler for me, although clearly a malignant force, he always struck me as more intelligent and with a more varied life too , before he turned to fascism


message 16: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
I went to a marvellous exhibition today at the Fondation Cartier: Olga de Amaral, a Colombian textile artist.

description

I'll post some more in Photos.


message 17: by Lass (new)

Lass | 312 comments @gpfr….re Caroline Moorehead. Am a big fan of her work. First read her “ Dancing to the Precipice” about Lucie de la Tour du Pin in the French Revolution. Also, “A Train in Winter” “;Village of Secrets”, and biog of Martha Gellhorn.


message 18: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments i notice penguin classics have a new Mishima short story collection out, i read the last one they released last september, Mishima is a pillar of japanese fiction


message 19: by Tam (last edited Jan 29, 2025 03:21PM) (new)

Tam Dougan (tamdougan) | 1102 comments Lass wrote: "@gpfr….re Caroline Moorehead. Am a big fan of her work. First read her “ Dancing to the Precipice” about Lucie de la Tour du Pin in the French Revolution. Also, “A Train in Winter” “;Village of Sec..."

I have a photo of her dad, on my wall, of Australian born Alan Moorehead, war correspondent, on the African front with my dad who was his pilot at the time, during the North African campaign. His books on the history of 'The Blue Nile' and 'The White Nile' are well worth reading, as period pieces, of the history of the 'British Empire and quite how bizarre some of the principles of the British Empire were, in those particular times... Especially strange was the account of king Theodore of Ethiopia, who went to war with Britain because, (and took some people captive because of that), he had written a letter to Queen Victoria, which she didn't bother to reply to, apparently...


message 20: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
Tam wrote: "Lass wrote: "@gpfr….re Caroline Moorehead. Am a big fan of her work. ..." I have a photo of her dad, on my wall, of Australian born Alan Moorehead, war correspondent, on the African front with my dad who was his pilot at the time..."

That is a wonderful connection, Tam.

I read Alan Moorehead’s Gallipoli as a mid-teen and found it absolutely gripping. There have been many books since on the same subject but I doubt it has been surpassed.


message 21: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Huge respect for these young Israeli female soldiers who have behaved with such bravery and poise in last 3 weeks. Their spirit and smiles are remarkable after the hell they have gone through

Its just a shame so many hundreds of criminals are being released back into society on the Palestinian side, there is probably another Yaha Sinwar among them. I doubt that many will be setting out on a path to normal society that fast.

My hiatus of Israeli related fiction and non-fiction remains but think i will read the oral history of the Six Day War soon and try and understand where the situation was after that victory, i wasnt born at the time


message 22: by Tam (last edited Jan 30, 2025 12:36PM) (new)

Tam Dougan (tamdougan) | 1102 comments RussellinVT wrote: "Tam wrote: "Lass wrote: "@gpfr….re Caroline Moorehead. Am a big fan of her work. ..." I have a photo of her dad, on my wall, of Australian born Alan Moorehead, war correspondent, on the African fro..."

Yay! thanks Russel. My reading has slowed down again. I will try and put up the photo of dad and Alan and assorted crew, and other war correspondents, and the Liberator, in photos in the next few days. I think it was very much a bit of 'media' propaganda of the times, back at RAF Lyneham, Wilts, in 1943, as he was quite well known then, Alan that is, not dad!...

Dad's plane, 'El Solo Lobo' was borrowed later, by another crew when he was on leave, and was flown over France, in high secrecy, with a bunch of industrialists/factory owners who wanted to check out the damage to their various factory sites/businesses, but alas crashed on high ground over the central massif. All died. He had a lucky escape I think...


message 23: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments The Liar by Martin Hansen is a fascinating read so far, following the narration of a schoolteacher and parish clerk on an icebound danish island in early springtime

Hansen's skill so far seems to be how he gradually develops a souring of the atmosphere and the motivations and morals of the narrator. This bachelor and society pillar seems benign at first but then tensions and negative situations intrude, bitterness and anger beneath the surface, the classic "unreliable narrator"

Its also a novel of nature, observation of maritime birdlife, the seasons and the world of island lives for human inhabitants too. His turn of phrase and language is superb too. Its not a typically dense, existentialist styled novel either, the prose is spare and well balanced


message 24: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Tam wrote: "RussellinVT wrote: "Tam wrote: "Lass wrote: "@gpfr….re Caroline Moorehead. Am a big fan of her work. ..." I have a photo of her dad, on my wall, of Australian born Alan Moorehead, war correspondent..."

lucky escape for sure !


message 25: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
A Tug on the Thread. I've finished Diana Quick's family memoir.
She wrote about certain of the parts she has played which she felt had a particular resonance with her family story. This was an interesting idea, but sometimes I found lengthy descriptions of the plot a bit boring — a minor quibble.

A few interesting points to add to what I've already mentioned:

- "They knew how to preserve the natural teeth in a healthy state ... dentistry was an integral part of Ayurveda and its practices were recorded ... some 3,000 years before Christ. Not just dentistry, either, as birth by Caesarean section, trepanning of the skull a,d amputations using anaesthetic were all part of the surgical repertoire."

- The 1854 Heal & Sons catalogue of 'an officer's equipage for campaigning', "usefully explains how a trunk, bedstead and other items could be loaded onto a horse". (Poor horse!)

- Portuguese-Indians considered themselves much superior to Anglo-Indians.
In the Caribbean, there are words for degrees of colour going from 1 to 16.


message 26: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
For non-fiction, I've now started Iris Origo's The Merchant of Prato: Daily Life in a Medieval Italian City. I bought it and learnt about Iris Origo in general from Slightly Foxed quite a while ago. Mentioning Iris Origo the other day reminded me.
I think giveusaclue has read it.

I re-read one of Josephine Tey's Inspector Grant books: To Love and Be Wise.


message 27: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Gpfr wrote: "For non-fiction, I've now started Iris Origo's The Merchant of Prato: Daily Life in a Medieval Italian City. I bought it and learnt about Iris Origo in general from Slightly Foxed qui..."

You are right, I have. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did G. A great book.


message 28: by AB76 (last edited Jan 31, 2025 03:21PM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Gpfr wrote: "A Tug on the Thread. I've finished Diana Quick's family memoir.
She wrote about certain of the parts she has played which she felt had a particular resonance with her family story. ..."


on then portugese indian/anglo-indian rivalry, i remember reading a very detailed gazeteer of Bombay from roughly 1901 which looked at both communities. The Portugese-Indians(usually called Goans, from the Poertugese colony of Goa, up to 1960) were seen as attractive employees by the British, as they had dual language skills, were christian and very hard working. The Anglo-Indians were much less favoured (this is the Indians of some english heritage, as opposed to the British living in India)

There was a rivalry even within the Goan community, where a minority were not Christian and came to Bombay later, than the more anglicised first wave of Goans migrating up the coast to Bombay

The next path for the Goans in Bombay was into the British colonies of Africa, after 1900, many moved to Kenya, Uganda and there was a large Goan community in Mozambique(Portugese empire link). They formed a strong community, working as civil servants and many came to england after that

one of my sister in laws is half-Goan and her grandfather was the most senior non-British civil servant in Africa at one stage, he was born in Beira, Mozambique but his family were Bombay Goans.

On Anglo-Indians in general its hard to get an accurate picture of them culturally, though Quick should be a good source on that. I found some Anglo-Indian population figures for India last year (there were 88,911 Anglo-Indians in 1911 and 137,740 in 1931). The largest concentrations of Anglo-Indians were in Bengal, Burma and Madras provinces.

Famous anglo-indians are englebert humperdinck, alistair macgowan, cliff richard and the actor richard beckinsale(though he is more accurately anglo-burman). Sebastian Coe has Indian maternal blood and singer Peter Hamill revealed one of his ancestors was of Punjabi origin. Merle Oberon is another


message 29: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments a day without any messages, wow....


message 30: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments AB76 wrote: "a day without any messages, wow...."

Having a bit of a barren spell to be honest. Starting books then giving up on them.

I need another good medieval history book to get my teeth into. Will have to be good to match up to The Eagle and the Hart. Mind you. I was watching a programme about the fall of Charles I the other day and he seemed to have a lot of the same arrogant ideas of his own rights as Richard II. Didn't end well for either of them.


message 31: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "a day without any messages, wow...."

Having a bit of a barren spell to be honest. Starting books then giving up on them.

I need another good medieval history book to get my teeth int..."


no..painful deaths for both


message 32: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "a day without any messages, wow...."

Having a bit of a barren spell to be honest. Starting books then giving up on them.

I need another good medieval history book..."


At least Charles I's was quicker!


message 33: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey, a rubbishy, overwritten, vulgar-tough story of a bunch of enviro-anarcho-terrorists vandalizing large construction sites along the Utah/Arizona border. It’s just entertaining enough to keep me reading. The librarian told me it had been assigned reading in her high school. Unbelievable.

Also slowly progressing through Reprobates: The Cavaliers of the English Civil War by John Stubbs. Very informative. The generally suave writing is marred by a facetious undertone, as if he wants to joke at the expense of each figure in turn. Long way to go to get to the Civil War. We've only just got to the assassination of Buckingham and the consequences for all the hangers-on desperate for his patronage.

No sign of WWAR on the G, unless I’ve missed it.

Tam – Your father surely did have a lucky escape.


message 34: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments RussellinVT wrote: "I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey, a rubbishy, overwritten, vulgar-tough story of a bunch of enviro-anarcho-terrorists vandalizing large construction sites along ..."

interestingly i have Abbey's Desert Solitaire lined up to read in the summer


message 35: by Gpfr (last edited Feb 03, 2025 06:26AM) (new)

Gpfr | 6646 comments Mod
RussellinVT wrote: "I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey ..."

That was recommended to me years ago as a marvellous book for right-thinking ecologically minded people — I looked at it a couple of times but didn't fancy it.

"No sign of WWAR on the G, unless I’ve missed it."

Nope, nothing yet.

I've been meaning to say to you, a French writer I think you would like is Anne-Marie Garat. I've liked everything I've read by her except La source which I didn't manage to get into. It's had good reviews though, so maybe I'll borrow it again from the library sometime.


message 36: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
Gpfr wrote: "...I've been meaning to say to you, a French writer I think you would like is Anne-Marie Garat. ..."

Thanks, GP. I don’t know her name at all, so will give her a try.


message 37: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
AB76 wrote: "interestingly i have Abbey's Desert Solitaire lined up to read in the summer."

Sounds as though he’s more of a name than I realized.

Re your very interesting comments to GP on Anglo-Indians and Goa, I’m wondering if any of us will ever be able to come up with an ethnic group on which you do not have a deep fund of knowledge and statistics!


message 38: by AB76 (last edited Feb 03, 2025 08:07AM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments RussellinVT wrote: "AB76 wrote: "interestingly i have Abbey's Desert Solitaire lined up to read in the summer."

Sounds as though he’s more of a name than I realized.

Re your very interesting comments to GP on Anglo-..."


thanks Russell! i never studied anthropology, history was my degree subject but its always an area i have been very interested in. Part of the joy of the less joyful legacy of British imperialism in India is the volumes and volumes of Gazetteers. These are detailed histories of the people, the places, the animals concerning every region of India from 1800s to 1947, the best are the Victorian era Gazeteers and when covering huge cities like Bombay they are a gem, picking out the minority communities which are now merely a speck among the even vaster city of 2025.

Goa was an area that Salazar's Portugal over-reached in first, as they dug in their heels over the Ultramar(or imperial posessions). While they fought a long, bloody and unsuccessful guerrilla war with their African colonies from 1960-1974 (Guinea-Bissau, Angola and Mozambique), they could do little in 1960 when India invaded Goa, ending a few hundred years of Portugese presence in India.

Goa remains quite a distinct part of India, with Portuguese architecture and a strong minority Catholic population(about 25%), though how much longer that will last is unsure.

A small footnote is that one of the revolutionary military officers who led the Carnation Revolution that overthrew the Salazar regime in 1974(though Salazar himself was dead by then) was a Mozambican Luso-Goan called Otelo De Carvalho. Mozambique had a small but influential Portugese-Indian population.


message 39: by Robert (new)

Robert Rudolph | 464 comments Gpfr wrote: "For non-fiction, I've now started Iris Origo's The Merchant of Prato: Daily Life in a Medieval Italian City. I bought it and learnt about Iris Origo in general from Slightly Foxed qui..."

I remember Tey's The Franchise Affair was a good mystery.


message 40: by Paul (new)

Paul | 1 comments RussellinVT wrote: "I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey, a rubbishy, overwritten, vulgar-tough story of a bunch of enviro-anarcho-terrorists vandalizing large construction sites along ..."

I would agree with that assessment of The Monkey Wrench Gang. It was sensationalist inanity, written with a jaundiced ill-humor. Desert Solitaire was far better, and far more reverent of the surrounding nature without the need to shove in hippy dippy free love characters


message 41: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Paul wrote: "RussellinVT wrote: "I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey, a rubbishy, overwritten, vulgar-tough story of a bunch of enviro-anarcho-terrorists vandalizing large const..."

it seems he wrote a few novels, not just the Monkey Wrench, i may explore some of them after i read Desert Solitaire this summer


message 42: by Paul (new)

Paul | 1 comments AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "RussellinVT wrote: "I’m a quarter of the way into The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey, a rubbishy, overwritten, vulgar-tough story of a bunch of enviro-anarcho-terrorists vandalizin..."
I actually have the sequel, Hayduke Lives, lying in a box somewhere. I've never read it, but I might get around to it sooner or later.


message 43: by Robert (last edited Feb 04, 2025 05:08PM) (new)

Robert Rudolph | 464 comments I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler.
Odd to read that Britain had diplomatic representation at the Vatican, even after Britain and Italy were at war. Francis D'Arcy Osborne, the British envoy, had frequent meetings with Pope Pius and the Vatican curia, and was even able to go to Britain for consultation with his government.
In the summer of 1942, Osborne and other diplomats pressed Pope Pius to speak out about the mass murder of civilians in central and Eastern Europe. The foreign office privately criticized Pius XII's "timidity."
I turned from Kertzer's book, published in 2022, to Walter Laqueur's The Terrible Secret, published in 1980. In his appendix on the British Foreign Office, Laqueur writes that in that same summer, D. Allen of the Foreign Office had doubts about the Final Solution: "As regards the mass murders we have no precise evidence although it seems likely that that they have taken place on a large scale." In September 1942, e Foreign Office did its best to persuade G. Mander, a Liberal MP, from pressing a question about the murders in the camp in Chelmno, murders revealed months before by three gravediggers who had escaped.
The Vatican bureaucracy had a similar response to this overwhelming news: it could not be verified. The essential story was not exactly denied, but the sources were questioned.
Odd but true: the Foreign Office wanted Pope Pius to bell the cat. Pius would not; the Vatican newspaper published less and less about the war until it had the content of a parish newspaper; the Pope's public remarks were carefully balanced so that either side could find some vague support for its position.
It all seems so bureaucratic...


message 44: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments Robert wrote: "I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler.
Odd to read that Britain had diplomatic representation at the Vatican, even after Britain and It..."


I've read in a few of my historical fictions that the Catholic church helped many Nazis to escape from capture and punishment post-WW2; it seems that in this they were helped (possibly innocently? or not?) by the Red Cross, according to an article I found online. I either had forgotten, or didn't know about the role played by the Red Cross:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/201....


message 45: by AB76 (last edited Feb 05, 2025 01:39AM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Robert wrote: "I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler.
Odd to read that Britain had diplomatic representation at the Vatican, even after Britain and It..."


interesting Robert, the vatican in WW2 was shameful in so many ways, i guess the proximity of violent fascists at the gates may have influenced some policy but ethically, a disgrace

as for bureaucracy, i think the curia is the worlds oldest and most byzantine bureaucracy in the world


message 46: by giveusaclue (last edited Feb 05, 2025 04:50AM) (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Robert wrote: "I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler.
Odd to read that Britain had diplomatic representation at the Vatican, even after Britain and It..."


And not very Christian! But then perhaps the Pope wasn't bothered because they were Jews mainly?


message 47: by AB76 (last edited Feb 05, 2025 05:24AM) (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments Trump and Netanyahu by the fireside, a kind of dystopian jackanory, a fictional telling of a real crisis. Netanyahu almost dizzy with happiness as Trump explains how Gaza seems to have been levelled by an invisible force and now the Gazans need to live somewhere safer, while Trump redevelops Gaza into a seaside resort for Israelis....astonishing


message 48: by RussellinVT (new)

RussellinVT | 608 comments Mod
Robert wrote: "I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler..."

Interesting, Robert. Does Kertzer's book mention whether cardinals were able to travel to the Vatican from other countries? I imagine not, but if a British diplomat could then perhaps others could too, say those from non-belligerent countries - if they wished to make the hazardous journey. I suppose also that back then the majority were Italian anyway.


message 49: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments its such a shame that hardbacks are so expensive, the uni presses have released some great books in last few years, which i want to read but i simply wont pay £20 for a book i can get at £12 in paperback, this leaves me waiting 18months for many books

I can see that they need to cash in on hardback sales but its a real disappointment to find pricing so prohibitive.


message 50: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6937 comments RussellinVT wrote: "Robert wrote: "I'm reading David Kertzer's The Pope at War: The Secret History of Pius XII, Mussolini, and Hitler..."

Interesting, Robert. Does Kertzer's book mention whether cardinals were able t..."


The Sky Atantic adaption of Scuarati's Mussolini novel is a real treat so far, full of life and flowing italian words. I found D'Annunzio stole the show in his few appearences but not sure who much coverage the vatican agreements with Mussolini will get. The episode covered 1919 and young Benny M was anti-everything


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