The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

Nesting by Roisín O’Donnell

I was really pleased and big surprised to see this here.

It’s unusually long for a debut novel by a short story writer but really gripping and focused

It’s draws on two areas of research

Melanie Nowocki’s work on the Hotelisation of the Housing Crisis

Don Hennessy’s writing on the abuse of women by their male partners – including her book “How He Gets Inside Her Head”

It’s also blurbed by the Chair of the Booker judges - just saying …. Although I think it was always much more likely to end up here

This does look interesting (if a bit long!)

I think not your type of book either - it has plot, characters etc.

I picked this up yesterday after the longlist was announced, and I can't put it down. So far, it reads like a thriller and reminds me a bit of Prophet Song—not just in tone, but in the sense of looming doom. From the start, it feels like no matter how bad things are for Ciara at p.60, they will inevitably be worse at p. 260.

It’s as viscerally gripping a literary book as I have read - I almost felt physically sick with anxiety for her.

Based on the description and the comments, I think I would not dislike it but I truly do not want to read it!

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think not your type of book either - it has plot, characters etc."

:-D

Seriously what is it with the obsession with plot and character. 95% of contemporary fiction seems to think it's the 19th century not the 21st century. They can still be elements of the novel - the bricks from which it's made - but they are much less important than ideas, language and form.

I'm not sure what's wrong with plot and character, which has been the foundation of storytelling pretty much as long as stories have existed.

I loved this one. It's currently at the top of my list. It addresses women's issues, particularly emotional abuse, in an elegant manner. The language is poetic.

I really liked this! It's a page turner, but still quite literary. I think it is very successful as a depiction of what abuse can be and what it can turn people into. I had to put it down once, to get over a decision she made, but the rest went down in a sitting. It could be argued that it all ends a bit too tidy, but honestly, I very much like the positive note after all the impossible emotional strain.

and joy, I agree about the prose! very on point.

As of now this strikes me as a very strong shortlist contender.

Oh man, I started this and I'm not sure I can continue. Well written, important topic, but the visceral, physical anxiety that reading it makes me feel does not seem helpful in this moment. There is way too much else to be anxious about!

I'm reluctant to mark it is "abandoned" - maybe I'll just come back and try again in the future.

I just finished this. Definitely strong. Beautiful, Irish storytelling and very gripping. It almost felt like a thriller, which was a big surprise. Rose, you definitely have to be in the mood to put yourself through reading it. I think if I hadn't known more or less how it ends ahead of time, I might have had to pause.

On Amazon - the German one at least - the Ebook is just 1.28 atm.

I did not have as good an experience as some of you with this novel, despite its technical superiority and engaging writing. My problem is with the author's depiction of an almost cliched POV of women as victims of male. This despite numerous examples from the book that the problem is far larger than the just plight of the woman (I was more sympathetic with the children and state care providers of assistance) and that focusing on issues like this from one point of view can act as a form of fear mongering instead of illumination.
This will probably not be a popular perception but for those that have read All Fours, note how different Miranda July's approach is. She also has a main character who is dissatisfied and bored in her relationship, but July's character owns that dissatisfaction and boredom. She does not dump the blame on the partner, and this feels far more responsible, realistic, and beneficial to the world from my point of view, but certainly will not win the support of the audience O'Donnell is courting. I don't like the word fear mongering but it is the catchword of the present and if we were to examine what techniques of persuasive argument O'Donnell is using and then imagine those techniques used by a member of the opposite sex in a novel that reversed the characterization, we would find it unacceptable and the same could be said if the victim was on either side of a racial issue or immigration issue, issues ad finitum. The technique of demonization is being used far too often in real life for us to accept it willingly in fiction; it is only a slight modernization of the type of demonization of villains and caricaturization of stereotypes found in the 19th and 20th century melodrama that we would never justify now; and IMO, it causes as much harm as good by ignoring multiple contributing factors to an issue and trying to simplify said issue by simple blame.

I gave the book 3 1/2 stars and dropped it to three since it did not supply a fuller examination of the issue the author could easily have covered that broader view and kept the page count the same.

Edit: My view is strictly concerning the book as a candidate for a literary prize where I feel we must raise a higher standard. Were the novel a simple commercial thriller not meant as a standard, I would not raise my objection.

I disagree. There is a difference between fearmongering and the depiction of a bad case of something that does exist. And to compare dissatisfaction to abuse seems disingenuous. I would even argue the book does not show the protagonist as blameless, since her choices are often questionable, but tries to depict how situations like this exist - and they do exist. A different novel might have concentrated on a more nuanced depiction of the husband's perspective, but this was not that novel.

I am not saying there is no place for criticism, I just don't share yours.

Thanks Sam always good to have dissenting views - even if respectfully I would disagree here particularly with the cliche and demonisation characterisations.

I disagree as well. As a person who has worked in an abused women's shelter, it is not something that needs to be "shared" in terms of blame. Often the victims of abuse are not even aware it is emotional abuse other than feeling terrible in the relationship. I do agree it is a larger issue than just woman-man, as in same sex relationships have their share and occasionally woman abusing a man (which is statistically much rarer). I think the author is depicting someone who finally came to terms with the need to leave, and did something about it, which is admirable in my opinion, especially with children involved, and in a situation where Irish history is stacked against her.

Like I said, my opinion would not be popular but I am already preferring books that are moving away from blame into a different way of telling the old story. Good Girl also addresses the abusive male topic among other themes and does so in a far less demonizing way since we see the victim's role in the transaction. Sally Rooney also stepped away from woman as victim plotline in Intermezzo. My belief and hope is there will be less "blame," oriented literature, fiction or nonfiction, in the future because of its consequences. Fear mongering is not defined by by something that doesn't exist. It is far more insidious where there is evidence of the existence and possibility of the threat that is then overly emphasized or exaggerated. And this need not be an agree or disagree discussion. It is all measured in degrees. The argument that such threats really exist is really immaterial since there is also evidence of alternative situations.

My last point is on something Anna said which relates to why I broached the topic. Anna comments that to compare "dissatisfaction to abuse seems disingenuous" If I am reading this comment correctly, I think Anna is is using disingenuous in reference to me rather than the accuracy of the meaning. I have nothing to do with what the author is doing in this novel. If I try and define it, I would prefer one at least consider what is said rather than jump to debate, because this isn't about me. In simple terms dissatisfaction is the more general and less "loaded" term for what
one feels when one is displeased with a situation, and does not address cause or blame. I could also say that she felt uncomfortable, but in neither case am I inaccurate. It is through the novelist's manipulations of incident and words that we get our ideas and the author has designed this so that we have a sympathetic view of the woman as victim and negative view of the male as abuser. She could easily have reversed things and written the same type of book. It is the author who is controlling the reader's perceptions, nurturing perhaps some potential prejudices in the audience.

I call this the ideal definition of fear mongering as the author tries to manipulate the reader's emotions through exaggerations of worsening behavior by the male. We have a classic thriller plotline which starts somewhat quietly with a feeling of apprehension of that continually increases as the author seeks to heighten tensions. But this is the same plotline of every horror movie which starts with the feeling of some young teen feeling their being watched while babysitting on on some dark night. With the latter, we recognize the contrivance and it is seen as fantasy. My objection in a novel like this is that this type of depiction has a collateral effect on people reading it if they start confusing the fiction with reality, especially younger readers. These approaches also give little attention to other considerations that might be more fleshed out were this a more responsible novel. For example, the children aside from a being used for humor, are depicted mostly as parent's property. Their mention is almost always related to the selfish wishes of each parent or other interested party. My criticism is not based on the merits of abuse. It is based on the manipulation of reader's emotions. For a commercial bestseller, that is fine, but for a respected book prize, I think we should have higher standards. The depiction of anyone or group by another in a way that could negatively affect the perception of whoever is depicted is something to which we need more conscious attention IMO.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Joy D wrote: "We will just have to agree to disagree."

I hadn't seen your comment when I wrote mine Joy so none of what I wrote took your comments into consideration. I am seeming pretty thick though because I cannot determine exactly what you are disagreeing with that I said. I didn't say blame need be shared. I said I feel an author's work meriting the Women's Prize should display literary standards that go beyond manipulating reader's emotions with contrived persuasive devices where the reader might mistake the contrived as realistic. My comments were phrased so that little mistake should be made between whether the manipulation is of sex, race national origin, species, manners, whatever. I did not mention where such contrivance is welcome such as satire because I felt that unnecessary to state since it is not usually mistaken for real.

You also might disagree with me where you feel O'Donnell's novel is not manipulating emotion or contriving circumstance to create emotional effect but I wish for evidence.

You could also disagree on whether there is a prevalence of this type of technique in real life politics, news, etc. that manipulates emotion because that is my personal belief.

Just please don't disagree because you like the book or because you think I am taking the male's side or something because I have tried phrase thoughts in a responsible manner so that they could be debated equally with evidence and courtesy.

Perhaps it is my imagination that we can communicate with a level of respect for one another that outweighs our own self-righteousness, but while my usual behavior is to ignore debate, I am feeling the that is no solution either.

I haven't read this one, and not sure if I will. Like Joy have also spent time working with a women's shelter, and have some personal experiences with members of my family to draw on. I think maybe Sam the issue is partly to do with the direct comparison to the Miranda July book, which I'm also finding hard to understand. Domestic violence and coercive control don't seem to me comparable to the equivalent of a mid-life crisis by a woman who's dealing with issues around her identity, sexual desires etc. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Also wonder if the choice of genre, the thriller aspect is deliberate, as a way to allow the reader to comprehend the kinds of feelings/emotions experienced by many in this kind of situation. The tension, the fear, the lurking anxiety which can become all-consuming and which many victims struggle to shake off even if they've escaped domestic violence many years before.

Also I believe this was partly written in response to the explosion in domestic abuse/violence during the pandemic, and the ways in which reporting on domestic abuse/VAWG during that period exposed or highlighted the extent/nature of the issues. So seems quite topical/timely.

I will also have to agree to strongly disagree Sam particularly with some of your phrasing and comparisons.

I haven't read this, and find a few of your phrasings questionable, given the topic of this book (and the statistics about abuse, and, my apologies, your gender), but I do get what you're saying in terms of "does this book live up to a high literary standard," perspective, which is something a few other people have questioned about other books on this list.

I do notice a kind of flattening of nuance in some characterizations in what might be called "issue books", and I'm broadly in agreement that it doesn't ultimately do the book or society many favours. I had this issue with last year's Soldier Sailor, a book I otherwise loved, in that the husband was painted as a very two dimensional lad type, incapable of packing a bag (Kilroy got a slight pass on this due to potentially suggesting later that the narrator was a bit unreliable on this point). I tend to think that the role of literary fiction is to muddy the waters a bit on the good/bad person front, so I would always prefer a book that does that. I don't know where I would come down on this particular book however.

Emily wrote: "I tend to think that the role of literary fiction is to muddy the waters a bit on the good/bad person front,..."

I can see what you mean by this, although I think that's more to do with personal ethics/value systems than literary standards. But in certain situations it's hard to be nuanced. One of the women I encountered had a three-year-old. He wet his bed, her partner wrapped the child in the sodden sheet and locked him in an unlit cupboard under the stairs. When she protested her partner took a broom handle and beat her with it, breaking her arm and her nose, he did it with such force the handle actually broke into pieces. I'm sure that if delved into we could find all sorts of reasons as to why her partner used this level of violence, maybe his own childhood. But, if representing this in fiction, with a focus on the woman and the child, is the goodness/badness of the perpetrator i.e. the NAMALT defence necessarily the uppermost concern? And the level of violence this woman experienced was moderate compared to many others.

I agree, Alwynne.

No one "deserves" abuse regardless of the "reason" for it. I hate to see victim blaming in any form. Abuse (whether physical or emotional) is all about power and control, and this is a book about coercive control. It is entirely realistic that the violence escalated when the Ciara removed herself and her children from the house, where they could not as easily be manipulated. This happens in real life.

Joy D wrote: "I agree, Alwynne.

No one "deserves" abuse regardless of the "reason" for it. I hate to see victim blaming in any form. Abuse (whether physical or emotional) is all about power and control, and thi..."

Absolutely Joy, and coercive control is something that is worth highlighting, it's only recently in the UK and in Ireland that legislation has come into force in relation to 'coercive control' and it's still not widely recognised/understood as a form of abuse/violence.

I have not dropped out of the conversation, but feel to continue to address every comment won't benefit the discussion, Alwynne's mention that perhaps the author used the thriller model to better display the feelings associated with the abused is an interesting thought, one I had not considered. But I think it is important to consider what the author was doing or intending to do in her portrayal.

This second part was going to be part of a follow-up post following my first post on the novel but I got a bit distracted by early responses to that first post. But I think this goes along with Alwynne's attempt at trying to figure out what O'Donnell is doing.
Part of the reason I was disappointed in O'donnell's lack of a broader background with mitigating factors that contribute to the cause is that O'Donnell has already seeded this in her novel. Instead of those seeds being developed, she instead puts her effort into the building the husband into a villain. But look at the seeds that with slight development could have made this into a far more complex novel.
1. The whirlwind romance courtship and marriage. I would have liked more backstory on this, maybe illustrating the attraction and expectation each brought to the marriage.
2. The role of parents/inlaws on the couple as individuals and as a couple and especially the parents expectations regarding grandchildren.
3. The British/Irish division of the couple and especially how it fits into the treatment of Ciara by both the parents and the state.
4. The role of friends or other family members. This seems especially important in Ryan's case where he seems to be roleplaying into the expectations of others.
5. Ciara's unbased fear. It is vaguely explained and the author then tries to justify it through Ryan's action but some back story with further examples would have been interesting
6. The influence of (or lack from) the church and this also plays into religious background of individuals and as a couple.
7How the power dynamic of Ryan as dominant and Ciara as submissive evolved and I would have liked to have seen more focus on the friction that develops as Ciara's submission changes to passive aggression, thus fueling Ryan's greater and more threatening attempts to control. This is a classic power dynamic in relationships and can lead to violent blowups quickly. O'donnell captures portions of this very well, but again it is underdeveloped leaving the reader to focus more on Ryan in the negative.


These last two elements are pretty much missing from the narrative and for a more realistic treatment I would have preferred they were included.
1. Children's reaction to the trauma caused by the parent's behavior.
2. The involvement of the couple in some sort of conciliative behavior. preferably with therapeutic counselors.

I would have preferred all of these factors developed more clearly to give us a fuller, less two-dimensional picture and it appears O'Donnell had considered several of these herself, but for me they were underdeveloped in the novel. Now it is very possible she left them undeveloped intentionally, but I perceive that as a weakness not a strength, though I don't think many of you agree.

I have returned my print copy to the library so I cannot quote the lines, but in the later part of the book, Ciara gets a text from the inlaws blaming her behavior followed by another text, sender unknown I think, stepping up the blame and basically trashing her for using Ryan as a seed donor. This was left to a paragraph or two and really needed development as a counter to Ciara's story, which is all we have told from Ciara's viewpoint.

Alwynne wrote: "Domestic violence and coercive control don't seem to me comparable to the equivalent of a mid-life crisis by a woman who's dealing with issues around her identity, sexual desires etc. Perhaps you could elaborate?"

I wanted use examples mostly from Women's Prize novels 2025 that had similar themes of women leaving relationships. July's character also leaves a relationship and July could easily have justified that behavior by representing children or husband differently, but July emphasizes the point that the desertion of the relationship is a choice decided by her and NOT a consequence of husband's or children's behavior. It struck me that July took the effort to include that in the novel when finding or rationalizing an excuse would have been easier to write and probably would have played better to fans. I thought it interesting and commendable that July went a different route. O'Donnell's woman also leaves an established relationship for the unknown yet abuse is not clearly established at the time and the author then spends the novel establishing it. If we are looking at these as novels depicting familial abuse, no connection. If we look at them as novels with women leaving unsatisfying relationships, there is a connection.

I'll be leaving off posting this topic unless I am answering a question from here on because I no longer have my text from which to support any thoughts or quote. Good conversation to have despite disagreements I think. GY, I will probably engage you on Crooked Seeds because I am afraid we are in disagreement on that book as well but I appreciate your thoughts always.

Joy D wrote: "I agree, Alwynne.

No one "deserves" abuse regardless of the "reason" for it. I hate to see victim blaming in any form. Abuse (whether physical or emotional) is all about power and control, and thi..."

I could not agree more Joy and Alwynne.

Since I haven't read this I can't speak to all of your concerns but can make some general observations:

1. Whirlwind romance aka love-bombing is a common feature of relationships that start as seemingly positive but all-encompassing that then become abusive. Abuse often ramps up or first manifests during pregnancy.

2. Parents and in-laws can reinforce difficult dynamics or remain oblivious perhaps wilfully so. I have a friend who was brought up in a deeply religious family, she and her sisters married their first boyfriends, all were virgins and all were pressured to produce children - in some religious circles procreation is the prime purpose of marriage. They overlooked issues in these marriages. And two of the women, who later divorced, were very reluctant to admit to their parents what was happening, a lot of guilt and shame involved. The abused frequently blame themselves for the abuse.

3. Nationality usually relates to legislation and wider cultural/social recognition and/or expectations. As before coercive control only recently recognised and criminalised in Ireland and the first prosecutions for this are relatively recent. And Ireland has a dominant culture that is broadly recognised as patriarchal.

4. Difficult to say. My friend was abused through excessive control by her husband for years before any of us knew what was happening. He was outwardly charming but there were red flags, he always wanted to be there when she met up with friends, interrupted her phone calls etc So a sense of surveillance and, what was essentially being gradually isolated. Again all common occurrences with this kind of abuse.

6. The influence of the Church, marriage is a, if not the, sacrament for many forms of Christianity. In addition many (mis)interpret Paul (Saul of Tarsus) as meaning that wives should be subject to their husbands in all things.

7. Using dominant vs submissive as a way of framing coercive control is misleading and not really very helpful or explanatory in any useful sense.

8. My friend eventually managed to leave her husband but how that happened isn't clear, another friend in a similar situation did so when her daughter was in her teens as she realised the impact it was having on her. Interpreting an action as 'passive aggression' is a value judgement, so you would need to consider why this is what first occurred to you as an explanation for the shifts/dynamics in the characters' behaviour.

But this kind of power imbalance is not a healthy variable in any relationship, and not one that is an easy fix. This leads to your comment on counselling, again this is a possible perspective but one that suggests, along with your other questions, that there is a mismatch of expectations here. Since counselling rarely addresses these kinds of abuse, and in any case, why should women not be free to leave an abusive situation? Why should they need to work on that? Part of the problem might be that although you're the actual reader you're not necessarily the implied one?

Sam wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Domestic violence and coercive control don't seem to me comparable to the equivalent of a mid-life crisis by a woman who's dealing with issues around her identity, sexual desires et..."

Thanks Sam, I'm still not convinced there's a real equivalence here but respect your request not to discuss further. Although you might be interested in reading more around coercive control and domestic violence, might make this more comprehendable. And, as Joy points out, leaving can be a catalyst for increasingly problematic behaviour. It's one of the most dangerous times/flashpoints. Women often murdered after they leave, when trying to leave, or after a break up - as the recent Kyle Clifford case so eloquently demonstrates. My friend who left to protect her daughter from negative influences had to change her name, move across country, delete all her social media, change her number, and her ex still tracked her down. And he effectively stalked her even though he'd started a relationship with another woman, it was all about control.

The author drew on the books of Don Hennessy around male intimate abusers and how to escape such relationships.

Alwynne wrote: "Emily wrote: "I tend to think that the role of literary fiction is to muddy the waters a bit on the good/bad person front,..."

I can see what you mean by this, although I think that's more to do w..."

Appalling.

I texted this to a friend after finishing Nesting:

I’m so mesmerized by a story in a 1980s issue of Ladies Home Journal, that I didn’t hear my phone ring at first. I look up and am startled to realize that I’m actually reading a recent post book on my kindle titled Nesting.

I have recently discovered The BBC Radio 2 Bookclub podcast after searching for something similar to BBC Between The Covers. The Roisin O’Donnell episode was one of the first I listened to and I decided to read it before the longlist was announced.

I was raised on the West Coast of Scotland which is very similar and I have had a very similar experience to the main character. I found the depiction to be uncannily accurate to the point where I doubted the author was writing a truly fictional account without first hand experience.

Kirsty, I’m sorry to hear that you experienced something similar & wonder too if she was writing from first-hand or otherwise intimately known experiences…

like Joy & Alywnne, I have also worked in women’s shelters & know too many histories like this unfortunately too well, either my own or those close to me… I almost didn’t read it for these reasons, but decided to try the audiobook & glad I did. seemed better for me personally to read it that way… &, surprised & a bit disappointed that it didn’t make the shortlist. definitely want to read her short story collection soon (thank you for mentioning that in your review, GY)!