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All Around Dickens Year > Sylvia's Lovers by Elizabeth Gaskell 1: chapters 1-14 (hosted by Claudia)

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message 1: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Apr 24, 2025 03:37AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Sylvia's Lovers - 1st thread: chapters 1 - 14



Whitby, North Yorkshire - contemporary photo chosen by Claudia

This is the thread for our group read of Sylvia's Lovers by Elizabeth Gaskell, which will be hosted by Claudia.

Reading will be between April 5th and June 18th.

Claudia led an excellent group read of Elizabeth Gaskell's Mary Barton last year, which was most enjoyable. I'm sure lots of people are looking forward to this one too!

Here are the ongoing LINKS TO EACH CHAPTER.

Chapter 1

Chapter 2

Chapter 3

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

Chapter 6

Chapter 7

Chapter 8

Chapter 9

Chapter 10

Chapter 11

Chapter 12

Chapter 13

Chapter 14

Next thread (ch 15 onwards)


message 2: by Claudia (last edited Mar 31, 2025 12:42PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments History of Sylvia’s Lovers

On 2 November 1859, Elizabeth Gaskell, now 49, and her daughters Meta (Margaret-Emily), 22 and Julia, 13, arrive in Whitby, a whaling port on the North Sea coast of Yorkshire, ca. 68 miles south of Newcastle upon Tyne. Julia, their youngest, has grown a lot and needs a change of air.

Mrs Gaskell immediately loves the small town and its beautiful surroundings and enjoys listening to her lodger’s mother, Mrs Rose. The old lady tells her of her memories of sixty years earlier, in the second half of the 1790s, when France was threatening the British coastline, and press-gangs were forcibly taking men to crew warships to fight the French.

Elizabeth walks the coastal paths, visits some isolated farms near Sunderland and, as usual, talks to everyone she meets. She is impressed by the peculiar force of character and independent spirit of the people in Yorkshire. She is already weaving the plot of a novel in her mind. She meets Mr John Corney - Corney is a typical Whitby name - who tells her about the Press-Gang Riots of 1793 and lends her a History of Whitby by Rev. George Young. She also writes many letters, including a long one to her dear American friend Charles Eliot Norton, and reads Adam Bede published in the same year by George Eliot.

Alarmed by the dramatic history of the Terror in France and the influence of the French Revolution on politics in Britain, and never forgetting having often heard that her two Stevenson uncles died fighting at Dunkirk in 1793, Mrs Gaskell returns home and digs deeper. A trip to the British Museum in London and a visit to the Admiralty allow her to gather more material.

Like many people in the winter of 1860, Mrs Gaskell falls ill with a cold in London, and while staying with a friend in Winchester near the cathedral, she comes down with a bad case of bronchitis and is now confined to bed. She listens to the morning and evening prayers and hymns from her bed and, when she recovers, goes to the Hospice of St Cross, a mile away.

On 8 April 1860 she begins writing her manuscript "The Specksioneer" (The Harpooner). In the meantime, she has also gathered useful knowledge from her husband, who is helping her, and from her friends in Yorkshire. She is inspired by William Scoresby's accounts of his voyages to the Arctic as a whaler and his research as a scientist (An Account of the Arctic Regions: with a History and Description of the Northern Whale-Fishery).

Over the next few months, Mrs Gaskell has a lot of worries and a lot of work to do at home. Daughter Marianne is seriously ill and her mother takes her and Julia first to Heidelberg on a stay at friends and then to a health resort in Bad Kreuznach, Germany, but Rev. Gaskell asks her to return home soon. The family experiences many ups and downs, including a tragedy involving friends and relatives. Mrs Gaskell is unable to make much headway in this house of chaos. The Reverend himself is exhausted and upon advice from Elizabeth, goes to Italy. Mrs Gaskell now fully discouraged, even writes to Charles Eliot Norton that "the Specksioneer has run aground". Romola by George Eliot is published in the Cornhill Magazine, which discourages Mrs Gaskell. However, one of her daughters urges her to think of the parable of the talents in the Gospel (Matthew 25:14-30).

In 1861, the Civil War breaks out in America, which soon affects Manchester's economy: cotton supplies are cut off, manufacturers suffer, and workers suffer even more. This sad period (1861-1862) is known in the industrial towns as the "Cotton Famine". Mrs Gaskell devotes herself to helping families as best she can, helping to organise sewing schools and first aid classes. She is overworked and must put off working on Sylvia's manuscript.

She has sent the first two volumes to George Smith, her publisher. At the same time, she experiences domestic dramas with her daughters, goes to Normandy and continues to gather material for her series of articles on French life to be published in All the Year Round. Smith urges her to send in her third volume of Sylvia, while Dickens asks for her conclusion of A dark night's work to appear in All the Year Round.

The third volume of Sylvia is completed in January 1863.

The novel is published by George Smith, Elder on 20 February 1863 under the title Sylvia's Lovers. This is her only work which bears a dedication. It is inscribed to “her dear husband”. The American edition, published the same year at Harper’s and Brothers is inscribed to “all [her] Northern friends” and more particularly to “[her] dear friend Charles Eliot Norton and his wife”.

The first critics are mixed. Her friend Charles E. Norton expresses tenderness and respect. Geraldine Jewsbury praises “a true artistic workmanship”, the Daily News mention Mrs Gaskell’s narrative flair and descriptive ability, but the Saturday Review finds some flaws: “a lack of unity, some superfluous characters, a flagging pace towards the end…” Others again blame the Yorkshire dialect. Nevertheless, this novel has been often positively compared to Adam Bede, or, in some respects, to The Mill on the Floss by George Eliot.

Elizabeth is now totally exhausted. With 1000 £, her royalties in her pocket, she is now off to Italy, and stays first in France with her daughters, where she spends time with her friend and translator Mme Mohl at the Rue du Bac in Paris.


message 3: by Claudia (last edited Mar 31, 2025 01:06PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Elizabeth Gaskell and Charles Dickens

As for Mrs Gaskell's relationship with Dickens, their divorce was not yet final. There had been problems arising from his publishing of North and South in Household Words, but when she was working on her Sylvia manuscript, she was still working with him.

While Elizabeth Gaskell’s editor urged her to deliver her third volume of Sylvia's Lovers in 1862, Dickens expected her to send him the conclusion of A Dark Night's Work, but she told him to wait until she had published Sylvia, which she did in February 1863. However, he had added the word "dark" in the title without her permission.

In the meantime, she had travelled to France to gather material for her articles on French life in All the Year Round. These articles were published in 1864 - so they were keeping in touch. The visible break in their relationship came shortly afterwards, when she began publishing Wives and Daughters in the Cornhill Magazine owned by Thackeray (!). It was her last, unfinished novel, as she died unexpectedly in 1865 and Frederick Greenwood wrote the final section.


message 4: by Claudia (last edited Mar 29, 2025 08:01AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments The Revolutionary Decade in France is made of many social and political upheavals. Here are but a few milestones which stress out the most important facts to be kept in mind.

1789-1792: Revolution

22 September 1792: The National Assembly abolishes the Monarchy and the Ancien Régime and declares the First Republic (1792-1799).

The Revolutionaries arrest King Louis XVI and his family. The King is tried and guillotined on 21st January 1793. Requiem Masses to his memory are still celebrated by traditional Catholic communities today in many French cities and mostly attended to by Royalists and nobilities. I had the opportunity of attending several of them.

In June 1793, following upheavals in Vendée – which turn out to be a real war with 200000 killed in Northwestern France within three years, the bloody reign of Terror begins everywhere on the national territory. Suspected enemies of the Revolution are arrested and guillotined (“le rasoir national”, the national razor) or drowned (“la baignoire nationale”, the national bathtub). Thousands are killed.

The National Convention is ruling while the most radical are taking power.

1795: The Directory takes power, while the internal situation remains unstable but is silenced by the army now led by General Napoléon Bonaparte.
Successes in wars, Belgium is annexed, the Dutch Republic surrenders, peace is established with Prussia and Spain.

9 November 1799 – Coup d’Etat du 18 Brumaire staged by Napoléon who is now self-appointed First Consul.

(Source: Royal Museums Greenwich and own research)


message 5: by Claudia (last edited Mar 31, 2025 12:57PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments British reactions to the French Revolution of 1789

(A few more detailed paragraphs, for facultative reading, are under spoiler)

On state level, Edmund Burke (1729-1797) was a prominent Anglo-Irish stateman and philosopher, writer of several outstanding pamphlets and letters, a Whig MP between 1766 and 1794. He initially did not condemn the Revolution and asked himself if the struggle for Liberty was to blame or applaud.

Still, as early as November 1789, he expressed his doubts and publicly condemned the French Revolution during debates in Parliament on 9 February 1790. He strongly argued against unrestrained executive power but asserted that the Revolution was destroying the fabric of good in society and traditional institutions of state and society. He also condemned the persecution of the Catholic Church resulting from it.
In the same year, he wrote Reflections on the Revolution in France.

Other MP and statemen, as Thomas Paine and George J Fox, praised the Revolution.

However, the British government made a difference between France as a nation and a people and the Revolutionary Government. The execution of King Louis was the last straw. The British government, led by PM William Pitt the Younger, expelled the French ambassador in Britain.

On 1st February 1793, as a retaliation, France declared war against Britain and the United Provinces (the Dutch Republic and Belgium). Britain reacted in declaring war against the French Revolutionary Government.

6-8 September 1793: Siege of Dunkirk and Battle of Hondschoote. French Victory over the Anglo-Hanoverian corps of the Duke of York. Two Stevenson uncles of Elizabeth Gaskell got lost in fighting.

On 4 November 1793, Edmund Burke supported the uprisings in Vendée before Parliament.

1795, France was victorious over the United Provinces and posed a direct threat to the English coastline. English literature of the Victorian era often evokes the end of the eighteenth century, when the revolutionary French worried the British. The wars of 1793 and then those of the Napoleonic era form the backdrop to novels by Elizabeth Gaskell,Sylvia's Lovers, Thomas Hardy, The Trumpet-Major and George Eliot's Adam Bede.

(view spoiler)

In Britain, it was feared that the French Revolution would be emulated. Revolutionary ideologies had been circulating since Rousseau and the Declaration of the Rights of Men. The Seditious Meetings Act (1795) was passed, limiting all public meetings to fifty people. It became dangerous to express opinions in public, at the risk of being accused of being a traitor.

To make up for the shortage of men in the Royal Navy, men were forcibly mobilised, at the cost of kidnapping them in the street or on harbours.


message 6: by Claudia (last edited Mar 31, 2025 01:12PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Editions and Notes

I am using the Oxford World Classics edition (2014) with very good notes (including Bible references and sources and passages of poems), useful appendixes and an introduction by Francis O’Gorman. This edition corresponds to the fourth edition (end of 1863).

There is also a Penguin Classics Edition, edited by Shirley Foster, author of Elizabeth Gaskell, Elizabeth Gaskell: A Literary Life, Palgrave McMillan 2002 and expert of Mrs Gaskell's works, with valuable commenting material and appendixes.

All the 45 chapters in those editions, as well as the Gutenberg Project available online have a title, but the original manuscript had none. It is unclear who added them, perhaps Elizabeth Gaskell herself or the publisher at proof stage.

As most group hosts do, I do not recommend reading the introduction before having read the novel. The Oxford notes are, as far as I noticed, discreet but not all spoiler-free, but Appendix I (Time in the novel) contain some. I will be trying to be more specific about time during our group reading. We must also forgive a few discrepancies and errors in topography and chronology. Most of them are glossed in endnotes.

Please bear in mind that the novel was originally written and published in three volumes of respectively 14, 15 and 16 chapters each, at Smith & Elder, editor George Smith (the son).

Read as a straight run of 45 chapters, its graded and patterned development to the climax might perhaps be overlooked, observed John McVeagh in his essay of 1970, The making of Sylvia’s Lovers.

This is why I will mention the end of each volume and possibly insert an extra day off.

The tone of each volume is also different, as the writing of Sylvia's Lovers was no “straightforward business”, as scholars often stressed out:

Volume 1 was rapidly, energetically written in spring 1860.

Volume 2 was slowly composed in 1861.

Volume 3 was sent to George Smith at the beginning of 1863. In 1862 and 1863, Mrs Gaskell experienced difficult times, and was much affected by the Cotton Famine in Manchester and the Civil War in the United States, on which she was thoroughly kept informed by letters from her friend Charles E Norton.

The fourth edition was reuniting the three volumes in one book. It had a cover illustration and four illustrations within the book, by George du Maurier (1834-1896), illustrator, cartoonist and writer. He was very affected by the novel. However, these illustrations are not printed in the Oxford World Classics edition.

Elizabeth Gaskell herself said that Sylvia's Lovers was “the saddest story [she] ever wrote” but no one could ever find where she had written this.

Interestingly, there is no screen nor scene adaptation of Sylvia’s Lovers.

We will read one chapter a day and have a day off on every third day with an additional day off at the end of Volume 1 and Volume 2.

Thank you all for reading patiently these introductory notes, and “see you” in Whitby/Monkshaven on Saturday, 5th April 2025 for Chapter 1!


message 7: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Wow! You have give us a smorgasbord of information here Claudia! Thank you very much for all your work here, ensuring that everyone can be well prepared. 😊


message 8: by Kelly (new)

Kelly (sunny_reader_girl) | 88 comments I look forward to joining in. I have the Penguin Classic, with introduction and notes by Shirley Foster. As always, I'm not sure how much I will chime in to the discussion, but I will sure try. (Despite not contributing much to the discussion of American Notes, I faithfully read the book and am grateful I did!)

Thank you for the wonderful introductory information, Claudia. I enjoyed reading that.


Sara (phantomswife) | 1528 comments Terrific information and quite a lot about Gaskell that I did not know. I'm ready to go with this one and excited to get in another Gaskell at last.


Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Claudia’s lead of Mary Barton was superb so I knew I wouldn’t want to miss this one! Thank you for sharing so much wonderful information with us! I’m ready to go!!


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments Thank you for all of the information on Gaskell as well as all the background information about the world at this time. To my shame, I have yet to read one of her novels, so I'm excited to be reading my first one with this group. Thank you, Claudia!


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1029 comments I have the Penguin Edition, and am looking forward to reading another Gaskell book. Thanks for the wonderful introduction, Claudia!


message 13: by Theresa (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Thank you for all of the information on Gaskell as well as all the background information about the world at this time. To my shame, I have yet to read one of her novels, so I'm excited to be readi..."

It's my first Gaskell as well, though I have a couple in my TBR Towers.


Claudia | 935 comments Thank you all! I hope you will love this novel - very different from her excellent Mary Barton, nevertheless with some common points and a perhaps more mature writing - meanwhile Mrs Gaskell wrote many great novels, novellas and short stories.

Special thanks to Jean for this wonderful view of Whitby!


message 15: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Apr 01, 2025 03:47AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
LOL - you chose it Claudia! (It took me forever to post for some reason and I had to seek professional help ... fortunately he's just sitting opposite to me!)

Claudia has chosen a beautiful picture of contemporary Whitby which is pretty much the same as it was when the novel was written. I've no idea of the connection ... Claudia is keeping that up her sleeve! These steps though are famous. There are 199, and they are very steep. The steps go from the middle of the village right up to Whitby Abbey (which you might know of if you've read Dracula). It's almost impossible to mount them in one go; you come across people having a little breather as they climb up! Not for the fainthearted - though there is another access way for those who know.

Whitby itself is a little fishing village and world-famous for jet (a beautiful black semi-precious organic gemstone formed over millions of years from the fossilised remains of Monkey Puzzle trees!) You can find jet all over the world, but none as hard as Whitby's. Silver jewellery set with jet was highly prized in Victorian times, especially at funerals, so I should think some of the females in this book would be sure to have a piece or two.

Just to give you an idea 😊


message 16: by Claudia (last edited Apr 01, 2025 06:02AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "LOL - you chose it Claudia! (It took me forever to post for some reason and I had to seek professional help ... fortunately he's just sitting opposite to me!)

Claudia has chosen a beautiful pictu..."


Thanks for the valuable and much appreciated professional help in posting the picture!

Indeed I wrote a special post on Whitby (with Dracula, jet and all, lol!) to be published with Chapter 1, and another one on the 199 steps to come up in due time.

[There are a few cities with such steps in Europe, among others in Le Puy en Velay, France, a starting sanctuary city to Santiago de Compostela, Spain, 134 final steps to enter the Cathedral, a real test, not for the fainthearted indeed, Jean!]

I wrote a few background posts to be gradually published!


message 17: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1528 comments Wow. Couldn't be a more beautiful setting for the story! I would love to climb those steps, even if I had to stop more than once.


message 18: by Theresa (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments Claudia - I just finished reading all your introductory material, both applauding it and thanking you for it. I'm always googling down rabbit holes, checking maps, history, architecture, images, you name it as I read, all eased by reading ebooks on my tablet. You have for sure saved me some research time!

I was particularly taken with this:

In Britain, it was feared that the French Revolution would be emulated. Revolutionary ideologies had been circulating since Rousseau and the Declaration of the Rights of Men. The Seditious Meetings Act (1795) was passed, limiting all public meetings to fifty people. It became dangerous to express opinions in public, at the risk of being accused of being a traitor.

It is no surprise at all that Britain's government feared revolution given that Britain's ultimate defeat in the American Revolution happened only a little more than a decade earlier in 1783, a very costly defeat after a lengthy war. Add to that King George the III's increasing bouts of illness - physical and mental - and inevitably you have a government that can be attacked and possibly overthrown. It did not improve given it's ongoing wars with France that lasted until 1815 and the War of 1812 against USA. I often have wondered if Napoleon had been less intent on empire building, and more intent on overtaking Britain would the UK have survived? Instead, Napoleon basically overextended himself and was defeated by the British - though it took 2 efforts to bring him down.

There is no doubt that the success of the American Revolution in the late 18th Century, against what was considered the most powerful nation on earth, one ruling territories all over the globe and dominating trade, had as much an impact as the 20th Century 'shot heard round the world'.

I've been a lifelong francophile, in college many decades ago concentrating on French literature, history, art, culture. I still am, eternally interested in both the French Revolution era and Napoleon and the Peninsular Wars. Now however I really enjoy exploring the 'other side' as well.


message 19: by Theresa (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments I'd never before thought about where one mines jet, or what created it. Given the Victorian liking for mourning jewelry and other ornamentation, and the long mourning periods where it was de rigueur to wear black and any beading, fasteners or trim were also black, it must have been a very profitable business!


message 20: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Oh Claudia - I'm so sorry if I have preempted anything - I really did think this was anecdotal "local" knowledge others would not have 🤔 But I'm sure yours will be more on-target.

Theresa - yes, for sure. And even more so now, as the seams have been mined so much that it is now classed as an extremely rare gemstone.


message 21: by Theresa (last edited Apr 02, 2025 07:30AM) (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Oh Claudia - I'm so sorry if I have preempted anything - I really did think this was anecdotal "local" knowledge others would not have 🤔 But I'm sure yours will be more on-target.

Theresa - yes, f..."


Which also means that the value of vintage and antique jet salvaged from clothing etc. and also of course jewelry, has no doubt escalated and become rare and collectible. Not unlike real ivory.

Anyone clearing out an attic where a family has lived for a few generations will no doubt find trunks with clothing decorated with jet. They might be moth eaten but the jet would be just fine.


Claudia | 935 comments Theresa Thank you for your feedback! Very good points! Re Napoleon: ”Ach, Luise, das ist ein weites Feld!" as said Herr von Briest in Effi Briest! We will perhaps see something of that in due time...

Jean Direct knowledge and experience from locals is highly appreciated, as it gives added value to our reading experience!


message 23: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Apr 02, 2025 02:39PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Local semi-precious stones (to Whitby, N. Yorks)

Theresa
- Yes, I have some from my grandmother (my family all come from Yorkshire), which may well have been from her mother. We were always told how precious Whitby jet was, and pieces were carefully restrung or reset by various aunties and great aunts according to the fashion. I was told from an early age: "It's not plastic!" because jet is very light, does have a plasticky feel - and because it's organic it responds to temperature, unlike many other gemstones. But when it was first mined there was no such thing as plastic. You are right about the clothes, as jet was phenomenally popular with Victorians. Nowadays Goths might wear it set in crosses and skulls - but theirs will probably be fake!

It's similar to amber in that it responds to body heat, and amber is also often faked with more recent resin eg. copal - or plastic of course. We do mine amber, again on the east coast. Whitby jet is often set with amber, and always in silver not gold, traditionally. There are beliefs and superstitions about this. Most amber now is from the Baltic, though.

England has never produced ivory (thank goodness!) but did trade in it for many years. It is now illegal here incurring hefty penalties, even for antique ivory (i.e. over 100 years old) because of the cruelty involved and consequent decimation of the elephants.


message 24: by Katy (new) - rated it 3 stars

Katy | 283 comments I will be joining in this one also. I have an Oxford edition (paperback). Thanks Claudia and Jean for the interesting background information. Like Sara, I would love to walk up those steps, but I am having trouble with one of my feet, so just thinking about it hurts.


message 25: by Theresa (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Local semi-precious stones

Theresa - Yes, I have some from my grandmother (Yorkshire), which may well have been from her mother. We were always told how precious Whitby jet was, and pieces were ca..."


Jean - so interesting! I do recall noting over the years that jet is set in silver which makes perfect sense to me. Ivory has long been outlawed in the USA as well for the same reasons. It's not surprising that Britain traded extensively in it given many African regions were part of the Commonwealth and given Britain's deep involvement in the slave trade until they outlawed it in the 19th Century. They had ships going to/from Africa constantly after all.

Pearls are another that are affected by contact with skin.


message 26: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Apr 02, 2025 03:11PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Theresa wrote: "Pearls are another that are affected by contact with skin..."

Yes, pearls, coral and some fossils are the only other organic gemstones - and also popular with Victorians - but they are not local (just a few wild pearls mostly in the Isle of Wight at the other end of the country) so I didn't mention them.

Most Victorian novels have some connection or reference to the slave trade (sometimes by implication) as we have found in several of our group reads of Charles Dickens's works. In fact we have been discussing it this very week in our read of American Notes for General Circulation, as by the time Charles Dickens visited America in 1842 it was illegal here, and he was so appalled at what he saw in the Southern States that he had to change his itinerary as he was so upset.

It will be interesting to see if this one does too. e.g. some Whitby-registered vessels had been involved in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade in the 18th century 😢. And any characters who have made their money and investments from slavery might be obvious ... but I'm sure Claudia will tell us if this is a pertinent factor. I hope you enjoy your first read with us Theresa; it's good to see you joining in so fully.


message 27: by Theresa (last edited Apr 02, 2025 03:18PM) (new) - added it

Theresa | 35 comments Ah, thanks! For any in this group that know me from other groups - such as Kelly - I am known for speaking up and being quite active in discussions when it's something I am reading, have read, or know something about. I can also be the one trailing far behind in the reading and posting long after everyone else has finished and moved on. I also use google a lot.

I already know I'll enjoy being here.

Oh and I want to mention one thing about finding out more about Brits whose money comes from slave trade and whose ships may be involved - a friend of mine with whom I often discuss books mentioned once when we were discussing Pride & Prejudice (her favorite book and who doesn't discuss it frequently?) this: "You do realize that much of Darcy's and even Willoughby's wealth comes from the slave trade?" Well, that gave me pause though I did not let on that I had never considered the source of their wealth beyond income from inherited land. But there has to be some truth there. It's like the moment friends and I stepped off the elevator at the NY Historical Society Museum to see an exhibit on witches and were greeted with an entry poster in which it suggests that the concept of 'good' witches and 'bad' witches were entrenched in our minds and governing our judgment from the Wizard of Oz movie and musical adaptations (now Wicked as well). We all, everyone a feminist and a member of a book club that reads SFF from a feminist perspective, had an epiphany.


message 28: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8391 comments Mod
Moments like that make you take a deep breath; we do need to be open to constantly reevaluating, I think.


message 29: by Claudia (last edited Apr 04, 2025 12:54AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you Theresa for participating actively!

Indeed, Jean, at least one Whitby ship, the Young William launched in 1794 in Whitby made a first voyage to Botany Bay (the often mentioned penitential colony in Australia) then went to China for the East India Company and subsequently made two voyages as a slave ship in the triangular trade. It was wrecked in 1802. (Source: Wikipedia)

For those interested, here is a specific link on the part of Yorkshire in slave trade:

https://historicengland.org.uk/resear...

Nantes, Brittany and other port towns in France were also very active. Irene Frain wrote Les naufragés de l'île Tromelin, a novel based on real facts during the Ancien Régime. Here is a link to my bilingual review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show....

However, this activity is not mentioned or even alluded to in the text of Sylvia's Lovers(unless I missed something lol) but some other activities are, and I will post more specifically when we will be reading the relevant chapters, and I will be happy to read everyone's comments then.


message 30: by Claudia (last edited Apr 03, 2025 01:35AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Katy wrote: "I will be joining in this one also. I have an Oxford edition (paperback). Thanks Claudia and Jean for the interesting background information. Like Sara, I would love to walk up those steps, but I a..."

Thank you for joining, Katy! Reading such books allow us, for example, to walk up and down the steps in Whitby and enjoy the view without even being there, and not caring about our feet!

More seriously, I know what you mean and hope your foot issue will be soon solved.

Upon checking some first notes of the Oxford edition, I spotted something of a spoiler so that we have really to be careful if we mind spoilers. Sylvia's Lovers's substance is also very much about the twists and turns of its plot and a high page-turning quality, as was Mary Barton.


message 31: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments I downloaded an e-copy for my kindle and it doesn't appear to have commentary at all. But I really believe I will get plenty of excellent information here, as I already have. Looking forward to reading along with everyone and following your lead, Claudia.


Petra | 2173 comments I'm looking forward to this read. Thanks, Claudia, for all the terrific information.


message 33: by Claudia (last edited Apr 04, 2025 09:12PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 1 – Monkshaven

We are given a fully detailed description of Monkshaven, where the novel is set, in the very specific context of the post-revolutionary war against the French Republic. Therefore, I am commenting straight away!

The epigraph, from a poem by Alfred Tennyson, In Memoriam (1850), is enigmatic but with a hint of sadness. Elizabeth Gaskell has omitted the first line, “Oh life, as futile, then, as frail!”, “presumably as too bleak”, writes the editor in my endnotes.

Alone Sylvia, mentioned in the title of the novel is pivotal: it is about Sylvia’s lovers, but, grammatically speaking, probably even more about “lovers” than about Sylvia.

Who is Sylvia, how many lovers are we expected to meet? It must be noted that the word “lover” is to be understood in its Victorian sense, not the present one. The title suggests that this novel may be primarily a romantic story, if not a Harlequin novel… which may be tricky.

Still, we have not yet met any of Sylvia or her lovers.

Instead, we are gradually acquainted with a small portuary town, described even as “amphibious”. The sea is described as having an influence 20 miles into the countryside. The narrator describes the seaside, the moors, all surroundings, a bucolic atmosphere but also a certain economic prosperity illustrated by the cityscape and the situation of the shipowners’ mansions uptown. The only few characters mentioned happen not to be characters, but real-life protagonists of old times and of that time: Lord Thurlow, Lieutenant Atkinson. This stresses the historical aspect of this novel, Elizabeth Gaskell’s only historical work. Mrs Gaskell is plainly telling us a story, woven from memories of locals she shared with, supported by dates and concrete events.

As Jenny Ludlow notes in her biography of Elizabeth Gaskell, Monkshaven is “a fusion of closeness [“closely packed houses” (chapter 2]) and extension”. Whalers are about to return from Arctic voyages. The sea, called German Ocean back then, is not only a source of income and prosperity but also of many dangers. It is dangerous per se because the sea may be rough and tempests may arise and seamen may never come back, but it is hazardous also because of the very real French threats in the present wartime. War has been raging since February 1793 and the Royal Navy needs sailors. The press-gangs are lurking in ambush, hunting for men and kidnapping them on tenders – those boats which bring supplies of food to men-of-wars -, take them to warships and fight the French. Just like a whale or a tempest, the war also swallows its sailors and soldiers.

This chapter is a detailed concentration of all this, from gorgeous panoramas, poetic scenery, picturesque houses, an entire population waiting for loved ones returning from a whaling campaign to a diffuse threat and the need for resilience, if not resistance, and yet the necessity of keeping civil to the Navy officers stationed there.

Some public houses, signaled by blue flags, are ironically called randywows, an anglicized form of rendez-vous, yet without any gallant meaning. These public houses were the headquarters where the press-gangs were registering their captured men, which is not romantic at all.

While I am reading this novel for the third time, I am now amazed! In this unostentatious chapter 1 which looks first like a travel notebook, or a letter especially written to us, developing into a picture of socio-economic activity but showing also the impact of the war on the community, many apparently insignificant details will make sense much later.


Claudia | 935 comments Whitby

Elizabeth Gaskell called Whitby Monkshaven most probably because of its configuration but also its history: a portuary small town on the estuary of the River Esk on the North Yorkshire coast between Newcastle upon Tyne and Scarborough (Anne Brontë’s beloved place, her resting place).

Whitby is nowadays a much-visited tourist destination, because of its cliffs, its picturesque settings, its wonderful sceneries and its 199 steps uphill leading to the ruins of Benedictine Abbey St Hilda, which was a source of inspiration for Bram Stoker’s Dracula, and St Mary’s Church nearby. St Hilda was the founder and first abbess of this monastery.

Whitby has also gorgeous surroundings: beaches, rocks, majestic cliffs and wild moors battered by sea winds. It has also rich natural wildlife resources and jet mines, where this black mineraloid was used to manufacture very popular mourning jewelry sold in all of Europe in the 19th century and worn by Queen Victoria herself when she was mourning her husband. (English jet is also mentioned by Victor Hugo, yet without indication of Whitby in Les Misérables.)

The small town has the same number of inhabitants as in the 19th century: 13 000 as of the last known census in 2011 (the figures are much higher during tourist season), which roughly corresponds to the figures mentioned by Mrs Gaskell in this first chapter at the time of her visit to the sea resort. She infers that Whitby was half populated at the end of the 18th century.

Whitby was also home to Captain Cook, whose HMS Endeavour was built in 1764 in Whitby as a coal carrier. He learnt his trade here.

The advent of iron ships at the end of the 19th century led to the decline of small Yorkshire harbours. The Monkshaven launched in 1871 was the last wooden ship built in Whitby, and a year later the harbour was silted up.

Whitby was also prosperous– as Mrs Gaskell mentions, because of its fishing (herring) and even more of its whaling activities: whaling ships went to long campaigns to Groenland (Greenland) from March to October and hunted the right whale (theses species are described thoroughly in Moby-Dick or, The Whale, chapter “Cetology”). Depending on their ranks, men were reasonably paid and provided for their families.

A few notorious writers visited Whitby: Elizabeth Gaskell, but also Charles Dickens, Wilkie Collins who wrote No Name there, Lewis Carroll, Bram Stoker… The novel Possession by AS Byatt was also set there.

It must also be mentioned that Whitby was one of the first Quaker communities and had a meetinghouse in 1676 but were already active as early as 1652 when George Fox, originally from Leicestershire, visited and helped establish a congregation. There was a more recent meetinghouse in the 19th century, which was sold and transformed into an Italian restaurant, Cosa Nostra, in the early 2000ies. Some stones in an almost hidden graveyard are peaceful and unostentatious testimonies of an old Quaker life. (I will write much more about Quakers later).

(Sources: Wikipedia and own research)


message 35: by Claudia (last edited Apr 04, 2025 09:06PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Welcome everyone! Thank you Petra for joining us!

In principle, Whitby holds no secrets for us while the chapter reveals historical facts or local specificities. I will post some more background notes in the course of the first chapters, which are indeed brimming with specific notions. It will do even without endnotes, Sue!

Next post on Chapter 2 on Sunday 6 April!


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1029 comments Claudia, thanks for your wonderful overview of the first chapter. The town sounds so beautiful, but then there are many dangers lurking from the long whaling voyages to the war and the press gangs.


Petra | 2173 comments Thanks, Claudia, for the great information!

I was at odds throughout this chapter. The setting is so idyllic and beautiful, yet there is a sense of danger and darkness lurking everywhere. It's a part of life for the people in this beautiful seaside town.
I did feel pulled between the beauty and the danger.

I found the first chapter very well written and atmospheric.


message 38: by Sam (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sam | 443 comments Good to see you back Claudia. I was going to take a break after American Notes but your early posts encouraged me to participate. And now your first chapter summary was excellent and a worthy complement to the novel, itself. I am being spoiled by these great summaries and commentaries in this group and find I want more of them. Thanks for delivering!

I echo Petra's thoughts on the first chapter and would only add I also got a sense of injustice from Gaskell's description of the press gangs and thought the author might be hinting at moral philosophy issues may be coming down the road.

Stylistially speaking, while doing all that has been said already, the author's professional approach to the prose, her avoidance of introducing her characters, leaving the first chapter to description, background, and setup, builds a trusting bond with the reader, but Gaskell retains her distance not overfamiiarizing herself so we have a respect for the author but are not on chummy sentimental terms with her. Austen and Eliot do similar, I think.


message 39: by Claudia (last edited Apr 05, 2025 05:56AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you Sam for your valuable observations on forms and style. Petra's
feelings are interesting (I am eager to discover thoughts on first reading) and let's keep in mind this chapter where plot and characters are absent!


Indeed Elizabeth Gaskell had meanwhile written a sum of stories of which we see but the tip of the iceberg, since she wrote Mary Barton and we notice now that her overall style has matured.


Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments The comments so far echo my own thoughts reading this first chapter. I got the feeling of an idyllic place where beauty and danger are intertwined. The press gangs just seem illegal to me and it seems a terrible event to have happen to a loved one and not know. I have another novel in my head which utilized the press gangs but I cannot remember- I can only think of Poldark but I’m not certain.


Kathleen | 241 comments I had to read the first chapter twice to appreciate it and what it was doing. It did not draw me and make me want to keep reading, which seems like it should be one of the author's first tasks. Yes, it is good to know the setting and the history, but usually a author does that throughout her book.

I know I'm viewing this novel through modern eyes and sensibilities.

Did you notice the length of the last sentence in the first chapter?


message 42: by Claudia (last edited Apr 06, 2025 12:25AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Impressment

Carried out by press-gangs, it was used by the Royal Navy in wartime, beginning in 1664 and during the 18th and early 19th centuries as a means of crewing warships although legal sanctions for the practice can be traced back to the time of Edward I of England. The Royal Navy impressed many merchant sailors, as well as some sailors from other, mostly European, nations. People liable to impressment were "eligible men of seafaring habits between the ages of 18 and 55 years". Non-seamen were sometimes impressed as well, though rarely. In addition to the Royal Navy's use of impressment, the British Army also experimented with impressment from 1778 to 1780.

The configuration of the coastal region around Whitby makes it an ideal hideout for press gangs.

Impressment was strongly criticised by those who believed it to be contrary to the British Constitution. Though the public opposed conscription in general, impressment was repeatedly upheld by the courts, as it was deemed vital to the strength of the navy and, by extension, to the survival of the British realm and influence.

Impressment was essentially a Royal Navy practice, reflecting the sheer size of the British fleet and its substantial manpower demands. While other European navies applied forced recruitment in times of war, this was generally done as an extension of the practice of formal conscription applied by most European armies from the Napoleonic Wars on.

Source: Wikipedia and own research

I posted this earlier as expected, Lori, but your pertinent comment makes me believe that it is useful to post it now ! Forced conscription was common and many impressment agents did go beyond their assignment.

We see press-gangs in The Trumpet-Major by Thomas Hardy but most probably in some other novels and perhaps the Poldark saga, or the Hornblower series, whose plots are set during the same times, if I do not mistake.

Yes, Kathleen, chapter 1 was unusual but, in my opinion, not tedious at all, but it was also my first impression three years ago when I first read the novel. As I wrote, some tiny details will make sense a bit later!

Now I am publishing on chapter 2 right now!


message 43: by Claudia (last edited Apr 05, 2025 09:25PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 2 – Home from Greenland

We get acquainted first with the Sylvia of the title and her friend Molly Corney. Both are farmers’ daughters now walking to the “Butter Cross”, a place at a crossroads in downtown Monkshaven where stands an old stone cross from ancient times on top of a few steps where they sell their products: butter, eggs to the housewives.

Sylvia asserts herself from the beginning of this chapter, when she seems to be on the move, resisting any semblance of authority nor opinion. She seems to have her say against Molly who is slightly older. Sylvia is looking forward to buying material for a cloak and focused on her choice of a red versus a grey duffle. Sylvia seems to be “spoilt”, as she can afford to buy several yards of cloth to have a cloak made. In the Corney family, the older sisters give their outgrown clothes to the younger sisters, who only wear worn out second if not third hand clothes.

Sylvia is mesmerized, for no obvious reason, by an incoming ship, the first whaler, the real-life Resolution arriving back home from a long hunting campaign.

Sylvia appears to be receptive to the wind on her skin, to the sun on her face, to the birdsong, to the current of the stream between her toes, but also to the crowd of women waiting in the harbour for their sons, their husbands or fiancés or their fathers back from their whaling expeditions. She is not expecting anyone, but she is inexplicably delighted.

The two young girls leave their load of eggs and butter with an elderly netmaker who has not missed Sylvia’s attractiveness, as he supposes that she is awaiting a sweetheart to return and allows himself a joke.

In fact, all Monkshaven is gathered on the banks of the River Dee and near the staithes. All are sharing information concerning their loved ones sailing back after a long absence. Young mothers are waiting for their husbands, young girls perhaps expecting a sweetheart are joyously singing a ballad, The Keel Row, a Tyneside folk song evoking the life and work of the keelmen of Newcastle upon Tyne, while others are fearing that their sons or husbands might not return from their voyage. The crowd, composed mostly of women, offers a mixture of joy and apprehension.

As far as Molly and Sylvia are concerned, it is not the right time for selling their products on the steps of the Butter Cross, so that Molly, who is active and realistic, is taking their baskets and sell the products at the best possible price to a retailer’s shop while Sylvia is going to buy her material.


message 44: by Claudia (last edited Apr 07, 2025 01:42AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Comments

The opening line mentions the exact day and year, 1st October 1796 (but we will see later that it is most probably a discrepancy, 1st October 1795 is more likely) and the gorgeous weather of an Indian summer in this small Yorkshire harbour town. Are those details trivial, are they a story-telling device meant to captivate us the readers, or on the contrary is this date significant as to how some historical events are to be remembered afterwards?

Short conversations between the two girls and the netmaker and between Molly and Sylvia back on the street reveal a few interesting facts about Sylvia:

She is very young, about seventeen, and full of life, a Sylvian creature of the forest (Sylvia derived from the Latin word for forest), sensual and sensitive, taking in everything around her. Her "tucking herself on a stone in the river", "like a little sultana" evokes the Orient and the Arabian Nights. Is not Sylvia a mirror image of Elizabeth Gaskell in her youth and even later, always on the move, full of energy, brimming with stories to be told. We also remember that she was called Sheherazade by Charles Dickens.

Sylvia reddened when the man talked about a putative sweetheart of hers coming back from his whaling campaign and his joke on her churning butter. Does this show her shyness and innocence, or is there a hint of shame linked to some unconscious dream?

Upon hearing about a Charley Kinraid, chief harpooner on the Good Fortune, Sylvia seems interested to hear from Molly that he is her cousin she is rather proud of, and that he kissed her before embarking. Is that innocent or is Charley Kinraid in love with Molly? Is Sylvia suddenly interested in Molly’s cousin who has perhaps struck her imagination?

The text shows us that Sylvia is not very enthusiastic about going to Foster’s, a drapery and mercery shop. Her mother has advised her to go there while her father said she could also go to any drapery shop and buy the needed duffle. Mrs Robson also advised Sylvia to ask her cousin Philip for his opinion, but she does not seem very enthusiastic about this either!


message 45: by Claudia (last edited Apr 05, 2025 09:05PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments A small economy

This chapter reveals interesting facts about the community, already hinted at in the first chapter:

The farmers’ daughters are participating in the work at the farm and have no time for much leisure. Walking to town and selling their products is an opportunity for a bit of fun, walking barefooted on the way and washing their feet in the river, feeling the water between their toes, enjoying the wind and the sun.

It is also telling us much about how agriculture was diversified (subsistence farming vs nowadays productivism) and provided food for the farmers’ families. Small farms were living in an almost total autarcy. All their needs were met at the cost of hard work (no electricity, no milking machines, no John Deere tractors full of electronic devices). They had just a few animals and acres and could sell their surplus of production in neighbouring market towns and generate a modest income, allowing them to buy only necessary goods. In such small farms, every family member was useful and included in everyday tasks according to their skills and strengths or developed them in churning butter or carrying heavy loads.


Whaling is the most lucrative activity in Monkshaven. Many men are hired on campaign, and this generates a salary which allows them to feed their families or help those involved in farming. Whaling generates a larger income for ship owners who are the town magnates and live in mansions in the upper town. We may suppose that money was circulating after the whaling by-products were sold.

Consequently, many men are away fishing and hunting, so that it creates a partly matriarchal society where women oversaw all in their absence about eight months a year and often had to make decisions, while they were unable to communicate with their relatives at sea. Such sailors’ wives were even unaware of their husbands’ well-being, of matters of life and death. This required a particular strength of character.

Mrs Gaskell is providing us already with a lot of concrete details about Sylvia’s everyday life in her limited background, but she is also pushing the limits and widening our perspective into whaling as a valuable source of income in Monkshaven. This corresponds to the panoramic view of Monkshaven in Chapter 1, then focusing into details: a small harbour town almost confined to itself, surrounded by wind-battered moors and rough coasts, apparently isolated from the rest of the world but with an extraordinary opening on the sea and the wild world and a relatively unostentatious prosperity.


Claudia | 935 comments Whaling, whalers and specksioneers

In 1753 the first whaling ship set sail from Whitby to Greenland and by 1795 Whitby had become a major whaling port. The most successful year was 1814 when eight ships caught 172 whales, and the whaler, the Resolution's catch produced 230 tons of oil. The carcasses yielded 42 tons of whale bone used for “stays” which were used in the corsetry trade until changes in fashion made them redundant. Blubber was boiled to produce oil for use in lamps in four oil houses on the harbourside. Oil was used for street lighting until the spread of gas lighting reduced demand and the Whitby Whale Oil and Gas Company changed into the Whitby Coal and Gas Company. As the market for whale products fell, catches became too small to be economic and by 1831 only one whaling ship, the Phoenix, remained.

One of the most prominent whalers was a child of Whitby. William Scoresby (1789-1857), whaler, scientist, explorer and clergyman, was born in Cropton, near Pickering, a village south of Whitby. At the age of 10 William Scoresby made his first Arctic whaling voyage aboard his father’s ship, the Resolution, which he later commanded in 1811. In 1820, he published An Account of the Arctic Regions and Northern Whale Fishery, in which he gathered up the results of his own observations, as well as those of previous navigators. This book, as well as Journal of a Voyage to the Northern Whale Fishery, including Researches and Discoveries on the Eastern Coast of Greenland (1823), were a helpful resource for Mrs Gaskell. Scoresby is mentioned in Moby-Dick or, The Whale by Herman Melville in the chapter called Cetology as one of the most eminent cetologists. The Resolution has been celebrated in Whitby as the most famous whaling ship until nowadays. While the Resolution was a real-life ship, the Good Fortune was probably invented by Mrs Gaskell, as the ship herself was unknown.

Herman Melville devoted a chapter of Moby-Dick or, The Whale on specksioneers, another version of Specksnyder, which means in Dutch “fat-cutter”. Specksioneer,(/spɛkʃəˈnɪə/) is the designation of a chief harpooner, a key position on a whaling ship. Depending on the size of the ship, the harpooner is working in team with other harpooners. He is the leading harpooner and the others his subordinates. One must be smart, quick-acting, fearless, strong, in short, a daredevil. A specksioneer also directed in cutting the fat (speck, also called blubber) from the captured whale and boiling the blubber to produce oil.

The Specksioneer was the first title instinctively chosen by Mrs Gaskell when she wrote and delivered her manuscript to her publishers, but her editor thought that this title would be hard to pronounce. A second option eventually emerged, but we will see this in due course.


message 47: by Claudia (last edited Apr 06, 2025 02:20AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Now we are straight into action! Imagine the half Pagan bacchanal of girls singing "Wheel may the keel row", a well-known ballad with several different lyrics, and tunes still in use in some Army music. Please keep it in mind!

https://youtu.be/qZ8u1ZE-reo?si=fUHm_...

Enjoy the beautiful atmospheric descriptions of waves and tide, and seascape in the evening golden light!

Up to you all!

Chapter 3 is coming up on Tuesday, 8th April!


message 48: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments Just a brief return to chapter one: I thought the evolution of Gaskell’s writing style was very evident and made for a strong introduction. Also I was struck by the two potential opposing forces in this town: those with inherited or “old” money vs. those who have have become successful through whaling, the classic neuveau riche.


message 49: by Claudia (last edited Apr 07, 2025 01:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Sue wrote: "Just a brief return to chapter one: I thought the evolution of Gaskell’s writing style was very evident and made for a strong introduction. Also I was struck by the two potential opposing forces in..."

Indeed, Sue! These opposing forces are showing the gradual evolution of Whitby. A new economic world is emerging throughout the 19th century, while Mrs Gaskell is picturing how she imagined Whitby sixty years earlier (helped by documents and testimonies)


message 50: by Petra (last edited Apr 06, 2025 07:31AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Petra | 2173 comments Chapter 2:
I enjoyed this chapter a lot. There was an innocence about two girls walking through the countryside talking with each other that was refreshing and serene somehow, but there are also underlying issues that make it an interesting relationship.

There were a couple of things that I noticed:
People like to gather at markets and check out the merchandise for themselves. It's a time to come together, chat, gossip, and haggle. This makes the Butter Cross (love that name) a place of togetherness and community.
But........ "no one esteemed it as a holy symbol, but only as the Butter Cross". ...... the holiness of the place is gone. It's now one of the ordinary. It's somehow (perhaps) lost some relevance?

"Molly had tied a knot on her pink-spotted handkerchief for each of the various purchases she had to make"
Molly's memory must be good. If I made a shopping list like this, I'd have a handkerchief with a lot of knots in it but no idea what half of them were for. LOL.

It was touching how the people on shore waited for tiny snippets of news and how the sailors on board sent news through the rowers that came to the ship. It was so important for the news to be relayed that the sailors didn't wait for the ship to dock. The need for connection between sailors and family was immense.
There was a dark side to this need to communicate, too, because "No one knew what might have happened" while the ship was at sea. Would their loved one return?

There was also the mention of the "everyday" becoming "familiar" to those that live it all the time:
"...was a pretty scene, though it was too familiar to the eyes of all who then saw it for them to noitice it's beauty"

There's a duality to all the sides of this story. There's the coming together, but losing something else at the same time.


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