English Mysteries Club discussion

Here is the thread to discuss The Case of the Late Pig by Margery Allingham, which has won our poll for the next golden age English mystery group read.

It's one of her quirky Albert Campion series, number 8 in fact, (although that doesn't matter, as they are stand-alones) and written in 1936. If you have read any of these before, it is the only one written in the first person, with Campion narrating the story!

Who's in for this one?

I am in, tentatively, I believe I verified my library has this if I request it.

(I do know that the whole system that sends books around to various library has some kind of federal funding that is supposed to be cut but if that happens I will consider other avenues)

for May 1st, right?

I have placed a hold on a copy through my library system so should be starting it soon!

I'm in, and have put in an interlibrary loan request for the book. Hopefully it will get here in time for me to start on May 1!

I've checked it out on Libby.

I checked it out on ILL as well!

It's been a few months since I've done a group read, so I'm happy to dive back in with this one.

Kelly wrote: "I checked it out on ILL as well!

It's been a few months since I've done a group read, so I'm happy to dive back in with this one."

Regarding interlibrary loans, I work in a public library and as of right now, our ILL is still up and running with funding. My hope and prayer is that it continues. The Ohio state legislature is in the process of forming their budget and it had terrible cuts in it for libraries. After a HUGE uproar from patrons and librarians across the state, the House changed the budget a bit but it's still not good. The Senate will look at it next and they'll hear from us again!!

It's a good one. There is also a good BBC (or ITV?) version of it from the 1980s. But it's so good. I love Campion books, though some of the 1950s ones were not as good. Best period was 1930s-1940s.

This is all sounding very hopeful! I read The Case of the Late Pig a few years ago, pre-Goodreads, and it isn't one I want to reread, but I will follow the discussion with interest! 😊

Kelly - my fingers are crossed for your library situation 🤞

Bionic Jean wrote: "This is all sounding very hopeful! I read The Case of the Late Pig a few years ago, pre-Goodreads, and it isn't one I want to reread, but I will follow the discussion with interest! 😊..."

Thank you, Jean. I had the privilege of manning a booth at a local Earth Day Clean Up and Festival last weekend for my library (and got to do a storytime for the kiddos as well!) So many people in the community gave us their well wishes and told us they are in our corner. It was heart warming.

It is good to know there a lot of support, Kelly! Many smaller libraries here are manned by volunteers to keep them open. And my local library is manned by the council office workers down the road on certain days. That was after a fight to keep it open.

Just a few hours until this one officially starts ...

Hello, I am in, I have it on my Kindle!

YAY Daniela! I look forward to seeing what you think. Has anyone started yet?

Bionic Jean wrote: "Has anyone started yet?"

I'm still waiting for my interlibrary loan copy to arrive. When I checked its status this past Thursday (I've been out of the office since then), it was in the mail, and coming from an adjacent state. So hopefully it will arrive here early next week.

Oh good. Fingers crossed Werner!

Thanks, Jean!

I have the actual book (what are you calling what isn't an ebook?) and started this morning. I loved the first chapter because all the characters are so vivid, especially Campion himself and Lugg but including all the people at the funeral.

I've read three Campion books prior, and gave them 3 stars (the first) and 4 stars (numbers 2 and 4 in the series). This one is already much better, so I should read the ones in between.

(view spoiler)[ Campion was only a minor character in the first and still very much the "silly ass" in the second, and the 4th I honestly don't remember so that's never a good sign. I realized I got him confused with Lord Peter Wimsey at the time, but have since read his early books so I hope to not do that again. (hide spoiler)]

Some people call them paper books, or real books, or dead tree books (I think that one has a bit more of an agenda though). I'm never sure, but would like to use a witty name for them if there is one!

I'm glad it's so enjoyable Jackie 😊

I've read three chapters so far.

The relationship between Campion and Lugg isn't a simple one, and I'm not automatically liking Lugg nor do I know if Campion does.

Does anyone know why Lugg would call Campion "cock"? Campion doesn't object, but he won't let himself be called "Bert".

Jackie wrote: "Does anyone know why Lugg would call Campion "cock"? Campion doesn't object, but he won't let himself be called "Bert"."

That perplexed me when I initially read this as a high school-aged teen. My deduction, based on the axiom that "we know what words mean because of how they're used" (which sounds like double-talk, but actually isn't), was that in the British slang of that day, taking the analogy of a strutting rooster in the barnyard, ruling over his flock, it would have meant something like "boss" or "chief." (American slang provided no interpretive help, since over here the word took on a drastically different meaning!)

That's a good idea, Werner!

Yes, due to it's current slang meaning it's a bit jarring to read.

Jackie wrote: "That's a good idea, Werner!"

I'll hopefully be able to check it tonight when I'm at work, since the BU library has The Oxford English Dictionary, and that's a pretty comprehensive source for English word usage.

I am about 50 pages in- finding the cast of characters confusing at this point- but have been too busy the past few days to dedicate much time to reading it. Also don’t understand the relationship between Campion and Lugg!

That's almost the correct meaning of "cock", in Cockney slang - e.g. "me old cock", is a hearty interjection, much as "my dear fellow" might be to someone of a higher class in more polite society. It comes from "me old cock sparrow". (Sparrows used to be very common in the East End of London.)

Interestingly, the phrase "alright me old cocker" (meaning "mate") was popular both in London and in places further north, such as Sheffield, where I come from! You can also say "alright me old Cock Sparrow" or " alright me old Cockney Sparrow".

I can't quite remember if this fits the character of Lugg. If not, then it will be jocular e.g. an assistant might say it to his employer if they were on good enough terms. If not, it would cause raised eyebrows as being cheeky.

The O.E.D. does attest to "leader, head, chief man, ruling spirit" as a legitimate sense of "cock." But I think that in this case, Jean's explanation of the slang hits the mark more accurately (thanks, Jean!).

Part of the difficulty in understanding the Campion-Lugg association (which is a bit more complex than simply employer and servant) is that we're coming upon it in the eighth book of the series; no doubt Allingham developed it in the preceding books, and reading those would probably have helped our understanding. I think they do basically like each other (if Campion didn't like Lugg, he'd never put up with him!). But they're also aware of each other's foibles, and feel free enough to criticize each other.

I started my reread this morning. One trope in the mystery genre (as well as other genres) that I find really frustrating is a character withholding important information from another character that the latter needs to know, and would really benefit from knowing, just because the author thinks that keeping the person ignorant will further the plot, and justifying the silence with an implausible explanation. That's going on here big time. When I read it the first time, I don't know if that made me roll my eyes (my teen self wasn't as critical a reader as I am now!), but it definitely does now!

Werner wrote: "The O.E.D. does attest to "leader, head, chief man, ruling spirit" as a legitimate sense of "cock." But I think that in this case, Jean's explanation of the slang hits the mark more accurately (tha..."

😆 It's a colloquial expression l've heard all my life Werner, both up North and working in East London where it originated, although it was never said directly to me, only males.

Bionic Jean wrote: ,i>"...it was never said directly to me, only males."

That makes sense!

Wikipedia has a very interesting and informative write-up on the fictional character of Albert Campion, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_... ; it has no spoilers for any of the novels, but gives a rich description of the background that Allingham provides him with. There's a similar treatment for his servant and factotum, reformed burglar Magersfontein Lugg (we're told near the beginning of this book that he was on parole when Campion hired him, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magersf... . He's introduced in the second Campion novel, Mystery Mile, but that's actually the first novel where Campion is the protagonist. (He's introduced in The Crime at Black Dudley, but there he's actually a secondary character.)

I finished a reread of the book and realized that I didn't remember much about the book. It was okay but not a favourite at all.

Thanks for sharing this Rosemarie! I can tell by my one-word "review" (copied from my diary pre-GR - my usual policy) that I felt pretty much the same! But the Albert Campion mysteries have many fans, so it was high time our group read one together.

I'm looking forward to hearing quite polarised views now 😊 Have others noticed what Werner dislikes, that "the author thinks that keeping the person ignorant will further the plot, and justif[ies] the silence with an implausible explanation."?

This is very tricky to pull off, but if it is done expertly, the reader can feel that they are being quite clever in joining the dots. If not, it can be irritating.

I'm pretty hopeless at guessing whodunnit though 😆 One mystery writer has said that the trick is to make the reader think that they are more clever than the both the murderer and the detective, but only just!

Bionic Jean wrote: "This is very tricky to pull off, but if it is done expertly, the reader can feel that they are being quite clever in joining the dots. If not, it can be irritating."

I believe you're thinking of instances where the author withholds information from the readers. What you say is true; but that's not the issue here; as the readers, we know everything that Campion knows. My peeve is that Allingham has him withholding a major fact that he knows from the chief constable, for a very flimsy and unconvincing reason, when it would materially affect a murder investigation with which he's been called to assist. To my mind, no intelligent and responsible person would do that.

I'm finding that I actually remember a fair amount of dialogue and narrative commentary here, often down to exact words. But one line of dialogue I'd totally forgotten features a casual use of the n-word, though not by Campion (there are no black characters here; the usage was a figure of speech). If I had remembered it, I would still have wanted to reread the book myself in order to do it justice in a review, but I wouldn't have nominated it for a group read! Apologies to readers offended by this (which no doubt includes all of us!). :-(

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding about when the author withholds info., and thank you for the clarification, Werner.

No need to be sorry, Jean; I should have been clearer to start with! :-)

Well reading it again, I now think it's perfectly clear 🙄 Probably just late at night ...

:-)

Rosemarie wrote: "I finished a reread of the book and realized that I didn't remember much about the book. It was okay but not a favourite at all."

I finished it and this is how I feel. I had high hopes at the beginning but ultimately found it only "OK".

I have been re-reading the Lord Peter books and think it suffers from comparison.

I have finished it, and enjoyed it for the most part. Had a struggle with keeping all the characters straight in the beginning. I thought the plot was well done, although I had figured out the murderer I couldn’t come up with the motive. Having read only the first few in this series I felt like I was missing some links. I also have trouble warming up to Campion, especially his relationship with his right hand man, Lugg. I plan on continuing with the series so maybe will like him the more I read.

I really like the Lord Peter books. I've read each of them twice!

Wow! I do think they are superior "whoddunnits", and clearly many of our readers do too.

We have read them all (as buddy reads) in order led by Adrian over a couple of years. LINK HERE for the thread. It's well worth a read, with over 360 comments for the entire series of Lord Peter Wimsey books by Dorothy L. Sayers, plus an official completed one and a spin-off.

I've been looking into the TV series of "Campion" starring Peter Davison. It's available on DVD, but I've also found 2 series of 6 episodes each on BBC iplayer, which we can get free through a wire in our caravan! So we'll give that a try. The Case of the Late Pig is (I think) episodes 4 and 5, but Chris is naturally keen to start at the beginning, so I won't be able to comment on the dramatisation of it quite yet!

What does caravan mean in this context? is it like a camper?

I'm not sure Jackie ... in England we call it a static caravan as it stays on one site. This is more or less my view as I type (and yes, the sky really was that colour earlier today! The sun's going down now)

that sky is beautiful!

I would have called it a "mobile home" but these days people here call them a "manufactured home". As long as it's home, that's the main thing.

Jackie - Here mobile homes are bigger, and can tour from site to site. This is static, (fixed) but still a "home from home". You can see people have patios and some have little balconies. And we all have our own little gardens to care for.

Sorry for the diversion everyone! Do tell us how you are enjoying the book!

I finished the book yesterday morning, and posted my three-star review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... . It's spoiler-free, and may help to stimulate some more discussion. :-)

Do feel free to add your main conclusion(s) here Werner, if you like.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Do feel free to add your main conclusion(s) here Werner, if you like."

Well, I thought the basic construction of the mystery itself was well done (I remembered the identity of the culprit from my prior read, but don't remember whether or not I guessed it before the big reveal the first time around). The pacing is brisk, with dramatic developments at the chapter divisions, which I like, and for me the character development was good enough to evoke sympathy (or antipathy, as the case may be). I found the description of the setting atmospheric, and I liked aspects of the ending.

When the character debuted, Campion was widely thought to be a caricature of Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey. I don't know if that was actually Allingham's intention; but the two series leads share enough background and characteristics to invite comparison if you've encountered both of them in your reading, and to my mind Campion suffers from the comparison. Where Lord Peter has a sense of humor, Campion has a tendency towards silliness; Lord Peter is polite to everybody, but Campion is positively rude to Lugg at times. (I'd commented above that Campion wouldn't put up with Lugg if he didn't basically like him; but that observation cuts both ways.) I'm guessing that the other Campion novels work better in third person than with him as narrator (which is probably why Allingham only utilized him that way once). And as an American reader, the British humor and period slang could be challenging at times.

In that connection, I'm guessing that one character's observation about another one, to demonstrate the assertion that the latter wasn't a good person, that "He tried to touch me" is metaphorical slang, meaning that he tried to wheedle money (?). That would be consistent with how the character acted in other contexts.

That's all really interesting, thanks Werner! I wonder if it rings a bell with anyone else?