Beyond Reality discussion

Have you finished reading The Last Murder at the End of the World by Stuart Turton? Please tell us what you thought of it. Likes? Dislikes?

Spoilers OK here!

I'm having trouble with it. I need someone to spoil it for me, to tell me whether it's worth the journey. Are we going to learn more about the AI/alien/god voice? About the fog and other aspects of the apocalypse? About how this is actually different enough from The Giver to be worth reading?

I thought the book more of a mystery than sci-fi, although sci-fi was certainly part of the revealed story, and it did remind me of Blake Crouch’s Pine series. I think The Giver was certainly similar, but that had more literary depth. We do learn more about the apocalypse and the AI.

Thanks!

Yeah, I'm further, and it's getting interesting, but it's so long. And I don't particularly care for mysteries. I'll persist, though, thank you.

I agree that it's more mystery than SF in its focus, though it's a science fictional setting. I've read two of his other books, and they are also mysteries set in unique settings. I always enjoy it when things about the setting are revealed little by little, which to me is the fun of a mystery in a SF or fantasy setting, because you don't automatically know the rules like you would in the "real world". Though I enjoyed this quite a bit, I still think that The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle is my favorite of his (and it's best appreciated if you go into it knowing nothing, so I'd say don't even read the cover copy).

In the back matter Stu says "This is an enormous book that had to feel small." Well, I'm not convinced. I think the themes could have been boiled down to a short story, tbh. The mystery is indeed what takes up so much space. Otherwise it's almost summed up by "5:5" "the meek shall inherit the earth."

But I do wonder about a few things. Why did the elders have dog-eared copies of the Bible? I would have thought there'd be more diversity among these future scientists, esp. that they'd be more secular. Maybe Abi guided them to that verse? But was learning the verse so important?

And there's the suggestion that these 'made people' are going to eventually awaken the humans - why? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me....

I marked several other passages that intrigued me. (Yay for book darts! ;) Here are three that are discussable:

"This is the trap Niema fell into. Accepted close-to-human is being human enough. Thea can't make the same mistake."

"My mom let me be afraid for a couple of weeks. Then, one day, she walked me out to the pier, right to the water's edge, and told me that everything we fear finds us eventually, so there's no point trying to outrun it."

" Powerful people usually are [afraid]; they have the most to lose."

Is anybody going to come back and discuss, or should I just return my copy to the library?

I had to return my copy already - I'm in the middle of end-of-school-year stress, I'm sorry I haven't responded! Brain is a bit dead right now. If I have a chance I'll come back and ponder!

Cheryl wrote: "I marked several other passages that intrigued me. (Yay for book darts! ;) Here are three that are discussable:

"This is the trap Niema fell into. Accepted close-to-human is being human enough. Th..."

All of these quotes are about fear I think, why were you intrigued?

Hm. Good point. I think that the structure of the book lent itself to a lot of exploration of fear and how to deal with it. The third quote also is apt right now politically. But maybe also they personally resonated; I'll have to think on that.

I am actually more interested in discussing the questions in the post I made prior. About the Bibles, and about humans vs. "crums."

The Christian creation myth of a god making people and making rules to follow or suffer tortures of hell has served to enforce obedience, hasn't it? The Greeks who, as far as we know, invented the Western World idea of a place underground of dead souls, calling it hell, but it was a benign boring state of being compared to what the Christians turned hell into.

Well, yes, thank you, that works... but before I can really get into the symbolism, I'm stuck on the fact that the scientists were fans of the Christian Bible. Scientists, especially those who have such god-like power themselves, are more likely to be atheists, no?

Which prompts me now to wonder - where in the world is this haven? It wouldn't have to be in the West....

I actually know quite a few scientists who are devout believers. As I’m always telling my students, science and religion are not opposites, they’re just different!

Hm. Well, I guess if you don't read the Bible literally, okay.

Cheryl wrote: "Hm. Well, I guess if you don't read the Bible literally, okay."

Agree entirely. Reading the Bible literally absolutely is opposite of science. I often become very cranky when people try to bridge the differences about reality given in religious texts and science discoveries.

I’ve always thought of the difference as that science requires evidence, while religion requires faith and faith is belief without needing evidence (which is valid, just not scientific).

And yes, it is possible to be a devout believer without reading the Bible literally.

Back to the book - I’m Jewish and used to being surrounded by Christians of various degrees of belief, so it didn’t really stand out to me as odd, more that chance happened to preserve believers.

You both make great points, thank you.

Shel, it could be chance. And/or it could be the author is Christian. And/or, and this just occurred to me, it could be that the author needed a way to incorporate the line "the meek shall inherit the earth."

Just one more thing I'm still wondering about. Why would the made people want to wake the humans? (Why would someone advise them to, and why might they want to, and would it be a good idea given the particular world-building in this book?)

Cheryl wrote: "And/or, and this just occurred to me, it could be that the author needed a way to incorporate the line "the meek shall inherit the earth."

Now that makes sense! :)

I think some of the made people have been conditioned to see the humans as authority figures who are somehow "higher" in a hierarchy and therefore should be awakened. Is it a good idea? I'm less sure of that one. I guess if they truly would have the knowledge to make the world safe again it would be worth it?

I don't trust humans, personally. Especially those in stasis - they weren't engineers etc., just rich people. I, myself, don't think they should be awakened.

Unless the author wants to write a sequel, in which case there's the hook. ;)

I read it, I liked it. But it wasn't great. Found the characters kinda off putting, though I liked the concept of the story.

Can't say as I really thought the bible was a necessary addition to the story. Not sure "the meek shall inherit the earth" was enough requirement to include it. Though, in times of uncertainty, people often find religion to be comforting, so maybe it was just there to show that one person was trying to find meaning in this new world.

I am also not sure awakening the humans seems like a good idea and I like to think that maybe they will come to the same conclusion, or they will at least put some precautions in place before they do.

I just read Klara and the Sun, which is about a robot serving humans. It tells the story from the robots perspective, and you feel (or are supposed to feel, I didn't really like the book) sympathy for the robot and how she gets treated.

I get the same kind of vibe off this story. Where it is told from the perspective of the made person, the not human, and yet we as the reader feel deep sympathy with the made person and not with the rather off putting 'real' humans.
It is interesting to think of this in real life and how humans often treat other humans as 'lesser than' and then use it as an excuse to treat them like slaves, or animals, or exterminate them. Rather than seeing everyone as valuable. A rather despicable human trait, to spend so much time punching people down, rather than lifting them up.

Dawn wrote: "I just read Klara and the Sun, which is about a robot serving humans. It tells the story from the robots perspective, and you feel (or are supposed to feel, I didn't really like the..."

What is even more of a despicable trait, a majority seem to support, and become a fan of, those who punch down, giving money and voting for them, or following their leadership.

Ah well, that is just a whole other story now isn't it?