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MAY 2025 BOTM: A Room with a View
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I got my penguin copy from the library. Looking forward to the discussions!
Mix wrote: "I got my penguin copy from the library. Looking forward to the discussions!"
Me too!
Mod
E. M. Forster does an excellent job placing Miss Barlett and Lucy in an environment that reveals their personalities so quickly. Miss Barlet, also known as Charlotte, is the chaperone of the younger cousin, Lucy. The former is a bit provincial and classist while Lucy views life through a cosmopolitan lens. Although Lucy is more open minded, she is also questioning her own responses, as well as the responses of others. Charlotte is not totally out of touch with herself. She realizes that she is held back by her own notions and doesn't want to hold back Lucy from experiencing Italy, which I think is admirable.
Forster displays this juxtaposition in the following passage: "[T]he traveller [Lucy] who has gone to Italy to study the tactile values of Giotto, or the corruption of the Papacy, may return remembering nothing but the blue sky and the men and women who live under it. So it was as well that Miss Barlett should tap and come in, and having commented on Lucy's leaving the door unlocked, and on her leaning out of the window before she was fully dressed, should urge her to hasten herself for the best of the day would be gone"
In the previous passage, Miss Barlett comes across like a philistine while Lucy wants a richer experience beyond the typical vacation amenities.
To all the readers: What is your take on these two characters? Do you feel that Charlotte's attitude towards the father and son was warranted?
Danny wrote: "Chapter reflections (1 and 2)E. M. Forster does an excellent job placing Miss Barlett and Lucy in an environment that reveals their personalities so quickly. Miss Barlet, also known as Charlotte,..."
To me it seems like Miss Bartlett is over protective of Lucy. She seems to feel responsible for her since she is older and because Lucy's mother paid for her trip. Lucy briefly mentions that Charlotte is poor, so it made me wonder if Charlotte is exerting herself to be acceptable on this privileged journey that may be foreign to her and trying to be on her best behavior?
I'm still uncertain of Lucy but she seems hopeful and maybe more naiive and romantic than her cousin.
I think Charlotte's attitude towards the Emersons was warranted. Being in a foreign country and exchanging something like rooms could imply things especially if you don't know the people. It might be even more complicated in a society which values high standards but I think even now you don't really know what people's intentions could be and genuine offers can be hard to tell.
Mod
E. M. Forster does an excellent job placing Miss Barlett and Lucy in an environment that reveals their personalities so quickly. Miss Barlet, also known..."
I'm so happy you mentioned the room exchange with possible ulterior motives because that went completely over my head when I read it. Based on your read, it's like accepting a drink from someone from across the bar. There's probably a nugget of self-interest at the center of it all.
Even though Charlotte, according to Lucy, is perceived as poor, I had thought she was too prideful to speak with the Emersons, for whatever reason. However, aside from that, I have a lot of empathy for her already, especially being a parent. It's difficult to experience a new city while looking after another individual.
I absolutely agree with Mix about the Emerson's room offer being a concern to Charlotte for the possible obligation it would put them under with the Emersons. That is why she was adamant that Lucy not take George's room but rather his fathers. There was also the perceived class difference on her mind as well. It is clear that she sees the Emersons as below Lucy and herself by extension. Charlotte may be poor and there are any number of reasons why that may be (father made poor investments, mother married for love not money, etc.) but she still sees herself as a lady of good standing.
Lucy seems very young to me at times as I read. She is kind of let out into the world for the first time and wants to soak it all up. Charlotte is clearly older, an old maid to the society of the time, and the poor relation who can only experience this trip due to generosity of Lucy's mother and her usefulness as a chaperone.
It definitely feels like the author picked this dynamic to show the modern versus traditional views of the time. Lucy wants to push the boundaries and be free while Charlotte wants to keep everything status quo and confined by propriety.
A note on the writing style:
I'm very much enjoying the dialogue in this book, however I really have to pay attention and sometimes go back to check who is speaking because Forster doesn't always indicate who said what in the midst of the conversation. I do think that is what makes it flow so naturally.
Mod
It feels counterproductive to discuss plot in this book because there is so much happening in the realm of social conditioning. People like Mr. Eager and Miss Lavish are attracted to the Lucys of the world because their personas fall flat in genuine cultured circles. However, they fail to realize that Lucy is not impressed with them: she seems more intrigued by her own naivete and how people go out of their way to bask in it for their own pleasure. While these characters fight to impress her, she is stealing glimpses of real life in Florence. She watches these characters finetune their philosophies to anyone within earshot, but she seems to be making her own judgements based on their reactions to real life, whether it be people kissing or killing one another. E.M. Forster makes the reader ponder the similarities of seemingly opposing social groups. The tourist and the cosmopolitan both share a fascination with the “look” of things more than they realize. The latter berates the tourist who buys a miniature of the Eiffel Tower while the self-aggrandizing cosmopolitan vultures anything that seems esoteric, so they could drag it into the middle of the floor of a cocktail party. Nevertheless, they both toy with societal perception and its desired effect.
To all the readers:
What does Lucy want from culture, or rather this vacation? Do you feel that has changed since the recent events (i.e., the fountain stabbing;the drive to Fiesole)
Danny wrote: "Chapters 3,4,5, and 6What does Lucy want from culture, or rather this vacation? Do you feel that has changed since the recent events (i.e., the fountain stabbing;the drive to Fiesole)
I've been trying to figure Lucy out this whole time. At first she did seem a bit of a follower and standard tourist but I realised that she doesn't want to fit that view even if she calls herself that. When she had free time she wanted to do something unlike the other tourists. Her choice to ride the tram to just see life showed that she wasn't just a tourist, even though in the end she thought better of it due to propriety. Equally she chose not to fawn after Miss Lavish, something I think Miss Lavish felt and so tried a bit less hard with Lucy and turned her attention to Charlotte.
Most certainly Lucy was already coming at things in her own way from the start, but I think witnessing the stabbing certainly altered how she interacted with the world. It put a little fear in her, but at her core she still kept that curious nature and didn't cut herself off completely from venturing out of her comfort zone.
The fact that she looked on the driver and his "sister" with a bit of envy and was over the chat in the carriage, shows that she still wanted that real life experience of being in a different place. I wonder what would have happened if Charlotte hadn't interrupted George. Lucy seemed enamoured with the beauty of the violets and could easily be carried away of the romantic setting.
I find Lucy to be a very interesting character and I don't think she is as easily manipulated by those around her as I thought her to be at the start of the book. I think she listens and observes others and knows her own mind, even if she doesn't always seem to trust herself.
Danny wrote: "Chapters 3,4,5, and 6It feels counterproductive to discuss plot in this book because there is so much happening in the realm of social conditioning. People like Mr. Eager and Miss Lavish are attr..."
It seems as though Lucy's ambiguity is what attracts the older people and perhaps the reader. It's like she's brand new and learning and attracts the boring conditioned people.
I think the description of her love for music described her well. She will choose the "perverse" song to play.
As mentioned, I do think the stabbing scared her a little but she is still bored of the people around her. They are "brown" like the symbolism of Miss Bartlett's skirt at the end of chapter 6, contrasting her in the field of violets with George. She just seems over her society and wants something real as described in this quote when she asks the local to help her find the clergymen: "In the company of this common man the world was beautiful and direct. For the first time she felt the influence of spring" (62).
Mod
Mix, your explanation of Lucy's preference for vivid colors and musical pieces is wonderful and makes me think deeply. However, I feel that someone could misunderstand and undervalue your take and assume she only appreciates the eccentric, which is inaccurate. If that was the case, she would be head over heals for Miss Lavish, but she isn't. She detects convention and pretension in her persona and would rather be in the company of "real" people. Although the local could be viewed as as a "common man" by Miss Lavish and Mr. Eager, Lucy knows that there is something at the heart of the local that's unrestrained and free of conditioning. Like you mentioned, "she just seems over her society" and that includes the seemingly cultured "hipsters" of the world.
I feel like everyone in this book has put her on top of a pedestal, but in the most condescending way. She doesn't need looking after at all. In fact, she has a knack for making others feel like they have it together. Like Avionne said, " I don't think she is as easily manipulated by those around her" and to assume so is reductive.
Danny wrote: "It's been a joy to read both of your takes on Lucy and her mysterious influence on others, which, I believe, has less to do with her looks and more to do with her brain. Mix, your explanation of ..."
I would like to clarify then that Lucy's choice of music and the setting of violets represents to me that she prefers rawness and realness. And the quote I shared I feel she finds that in the common man who isn't trying to be something. Miss Lavish's fakeness feels similar to the rest of the judgmental crew that I must have bundled her up with them, but you are right she is the one trying to be the free spirit one.
Lucy is at a junction in her life, moving from childhood into adulthood and just starting to get her bearings. Right now, she wants the same thing she asked for in the very beginning, a room with a view. She wants to watch and learn about life from a safe space. She’s curious about the world, but when she’s out in it, everything feels sudden and intense. She’s faced with situations she wasn’t prepared for. Watching the world through her window would give her the opportunity to get familiar with Florence and to prepare herself for entering the city and experiencing this life. Lucy hasn’t had enough time with her feelings to really know what she wants. She was surprised that Charlotte asked her what she wanted to do after the kiss because she hadn’t gotten to assess the situation as an adult individual in charge of her own self. The looming freedom of adulthood is both exciting and terrifying for her. She wants to make her own choices, but sometimes she isn’t even sure what choices are available to her.
The last time I did a group read, I posted chapter reflections and posed questions. It seemed to engage people, so I will continue that format.
******READING SCHEDULE*******
Week May 11 read Part 1 chapters 1-7
Week May 18 read Part 2 chapters 8-13
Week May 25 read chapters 14-20
In the meantime, try to obtain a copy of the text. It's part of the public domain if purchasing is an issue.
Looking forward to another read!
--Danny