The Seasonal Reading Challenge discussion
MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENTS
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Rule Changes
These sound good, and we appreciate the Mods continuing to look at rules as situations change.
Thank you for your willingness to address thisDo audiobooks continue to use MMPB for non page count tasks or does this change to paperback first (in whatever language), hardcover next if no paperback?
Mod
Do audiobooks continue to use MMPB for non page count tasks or does this change to paperback first (in whatever language), hardcover next if no pape..."
This will stay the same if its not too confusing. We can take another look at this later, but for now just these two changes.
i like these proposed changes and hope it makes things easier for the mods
Mod
I think you have come up with a great response to questions about these things - thank you
Sounds good.What about big book tickets for kindle books. Will they go on kindle page count? Or will it still need a physical book for confirmation in that specific case?
On the audiobooks, you said it will stay the same... Just verifying, stay the same as the old way (mmpb, pb, hb) OR stay the same as the print/ebooks proposed (pb, hb)?Which rule applies to large print?
Trish wrote: "Sounds good.What about big book tickets for kindle books. Will they go in kindle page count? Or will it still need a physical book for confirmation in that specific case?"
If I understand correctly, you would use the pb to determine Big Book eligibility. If there is no print copy, it can't be used for page tasks, etc.
Did I get that right?
Mod
Page count to determine BB's will remain the same. Page count for minimum length tasks will remain the same.
We wanted to to make page count tasks easier to find.... instead of looking for a certain edition.
We also wanted to cut down on the amount of e-book length verification.
We may be looking at other rule changes in the future but for now these would be the only changes.
both of these sound like good changes to me :)
I want to make sure I understand this proposed new process.I'm going to use a task from the upcoming season and make a completion post.
30.3 Susan A's Task: Exploring MPGs.
Choose 2 of the MPGs listed and read 1 book for each. The total number of pages read must exceed 500 pages.
Book 1
The Wager: A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder by David Grann
MMPB Here
MPG survival
paperback here = 493
Book 2
Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded: August 27, 1883 by Simon Winchester
No MMPB. paperback here
MPG Geology
416 pages
493+416 > 500 pages
Total Points: 30
***********************************************
With no rules changes to how audiobooks are handled, I need to post 3 editions for the first book.
1st book link: the book I actually listened to,
2nd book link: to establish that this audiobook is eligible for SRC I post a link to the MMPB, if not available post the paperback link, and finally if those are not available post the hardcover link.
3rd book link: since this involves page count post the paperback link.
For the second book, I only post 2 links because there is no MMPB.
Is this the correct way to post going forward?
Mod
I'm going to use a task from the upcoming season and make a completion post.
30.3 Susan A's Task: Exploring MPGs.
Choose 2 of the MPGs..."
I think the confusion here is in what is considered a page number task. We are not thinking of this in terms of just showing the length the book qualifies for the task. This would still happen in the same way as before, either by the edition you read or the process set for ebooks and audiobooks.
This is for the tasks that require something specific to be found in the page number, such as consecutive numbers or a specific digit.
For example, if you are looking for the number 3 to be in the page number, the GR record for the PB edition of the book will be used to verify that the number is in the page count.
For library users, there is no easy way to choose which edition you will get when you request it. So they think they are getting the one they saw on GR that worked, but end up getting a different edition that may have a different page count, but they are reading the same book that another may have gotten in the original edition requested. I also think this brings it in alignment with those who use the ebook or audio edition and the PB edition is the one they are using for the page count already. Everyone reading the same book for that task has the same page count verification. It feels more fair to me than one person getting to use the book because they read the ebook version, but another not getting to use it because the edition they had access to has 404 pages instead of 398, for example.
In your example, there would be no change from before in the way it was posted. Does that make sense?
Mod
I agree with JennRenee...the words here are hard and I promise I'm not trying to be difficult. For the record, I agree with the change to help library users.1. Can you make a correct post of my example using the same books? I think you are saying that for page minimum tasks I still use MMPB first, followed by paperback and hardcover.
2. And then, can you make a post for what you'd expect an audiobook user to post if the task was find a 3 in the page count and the book the reader listened to was The Wager: A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder
Mod
so for a task that requires a combined page count of 500... everything remains the exact same as it is now.
if a task requires the a book for numbers of 5 and 0 in the page number, that is what the change is for. It will not matter what edition you read, as long as the highest rated paperback has the correct number.
This would be something we would check in when doing the readerboard updates.
youre posting would not have to change. however if you would like to put in the post what the page number of that edition is that that would be great.
for example
task x.x TITLE HERE
Read a book with 2 and a 3 in the page count.
read book Timeless
Standard book edition used has 328 pages.
(this is the highest rated paperback edition of the book)
even if you read the audio book you would still just post the audio book.
For any task not needing a specific number or sequence in the page number does not change. Page number minimum tasks would not be effected.
JennRenee wrote: "Nothing is changing for page requirement task. so for a task that requires a combined page count of 500... everything remains the exact same as it is now.
if a task requires the a book for numb..."
99% of the time I'm using an audiobook. Do I still use the MMPB for for determining page minimums? And paperback for page count exact?
Mod
so for a task that requires a combined page count of 500... everything remains the exact same as it is now.
if a task requires t..."
nothing in your posting of completed tasks needs to change. We are just giving a heads up for exact numbers in page number tasks we will be looking at paperback version. So check that number when choosing books.
if the requirement on the task is to post the page number then you will just post the page number of the paperback. We really only need one link .we can then get to the book and look at page count.
I understand that if I am claiming a book with a page number requirement I just use the "highest rated" paperbackWhat I am less clear about is which is the highest rated paperback
does this just mean the one that appears at the top of the list?
Mod
Making sure I understand...For #1 - This season (Spring 2025) I asked for Magic 101 to be verified for length in the eBook Verification thread because the only editions were Kindle. The edition that matched my ASIN said 114 pages. (The other edition said 129 pages.)
When I posted the task with this book, I included "This e-book was approved for length in the ebook verification thread, post 410."
Under the new rule I would not have needed to ask for verification and therefore would not have needed to include the verification information in my post.
For #2 - Spring 2025 task 10.8 will accept a book with page count 384. The Magician’s Daughter (Kindle edition) is listed in Goodreads with 384 pages. There is no MMP edition.
The top paperback The Magician's Daughter is listed with 390 pages.
I cannot use the Kindle edition of this book for Spring Task 10.8 because 390 pages does not qualify. This would NOT CHANGE with the new rule.
For #2 - The Phoenix Crown and The Phoenix Crown: A Novel are both paperback editions of the same book. The first one is listed as 384 pages. The second one is listed as 400 pages.
In this case, for Spring 2025 task 10.8, the first book would qualify but the second would not. This WOULD CHANGE with the new rule - regardless of which edition I actually read, the title would qualify because the top paperback has 384 pages.
For Big Book tickets - JennRenee in post 13 of this thread said "Page count to determine BB's will remain the same."
I couldn't find in the existing rules which edition would be used for the page count. I believe it is the edition actually read for print books and the top MMP (or top paperback) if the book actually read is a Kindle or ebook edition. Is this correct?
I'm thinking of reading Black Wolves (Kindle edition). The Kindle edition is listed as 624 pages.
Black Wolves is the top MMP but has 0 pages on the Goodreads book page.
The Black Wolves is the next MMP with 480 pages, so this would not qualify for a Big Book ticket.
Black Wolves is the top paperback with 780 pages, so this would qualify for two Big Book tickets.
Based on this example, I think it would be helpful to standardize which edition is used for Big Book tickets along with the page count tasks.
If not, I can post the question of how many to claim when I actually read the book.
Mod
For #1 - This season (Spring 2025) I asked for Magic 101 to be verified for length in the eBook Verification thread because the only editions were Kindl..."
Yes, everything you said for #1 and #2 are correct. I'm not sure if I have seen anything like your big book situation. I wonder if there was an entry error. I have sometimes replaced a 4 with 7 and vice versa in a 10-key situation. I feel like the MMPB should also be in the 700 range. Let us look at that more.
Mod
This will also remain the same for minimum number required tasks.
example : books must be at least 250 pages.
Set the Format, beginning with Mass Market Paperback
Set the Sort By as "num ratings"
use that edition page count. if one does not exist then you do the same but for paperback format.
IF the task is asking for a certian number or sequence in the is needed in the page count.
Example: read a book with a 2 and a 3 in the page count
you would use the paperback format with the hightest amount of ratings.
we no longer will use the edition of which your read. THIS example is the only one that will be changed.
Set the Format, beginning with paperback
Set the Sort By as "num ratings"
The resason we are not changing the way BB are done for ebooks and audio is simply because MMPB has more pages. It's an advantage and we don't want to take that away.
However, this can be another discussion if anyone feels it would be better to make it all the same edition.
I hope I am making this easier to understand.
We can make a new post with for examples of posting, However this rule change should not change any posting requirements.
JennRenee wrote: "claiming big book tickets will remain the same. It will be based on the edition you read unless it is ebook or audiobook. In that case you will choose the highest MMPB. This will also remain the s..."
that makes everything so much clearer for me I have been on GR for years when seeing all editions I never knew books were sorted by number of ratings ---DOH!!!
Mod
1. Can you make a correct post of my e..."
Do you still want an example post? As JennRenee says, nothing changes in the way you post, just what we look at to verify the book. Technically, you are only required to post the book you read and the task requirements and we look up the other edition if it is needed to verify that it qualifies for ebook and audiobook users.
But I really do appreciate that you add the link to the qualification edition verification book in your posts, it makes it a little easier and takes a little less time in review.
To follow the way you currently post your tasks, you also post the edition that qualifies it for use when it is an ebook or audiobook. When the task is requiring something specific in the page count and not just a minimum length, you could just use the PB link even if a MMPB exists. Or, just post it the way you normally would with a MMPB and we check the PB edition when we review your task post
But I can still make a post if you want
Thank you for your patience in answering my questions.I guess I just don't understand why the page count minimums aren't being addressed. It's still a number that has to be verified.
Summer 30.8 MAZZA1's task requires books to be 250 pages minimum. I order a book from the library thinking I am getting the 252 page edition, and the 248 page edition arrives; it doesn't work because this is a page minimum task, not a specific number task. If the task had been to read 252 pages exactly, under the new rule that 248 page book would work.
Anyway...the bottom line is I don't want my task rejected because I didn't look at the right edition. I don't want to read a different book and I don't want to cause extra work for moderators.
If the following is correct, then I don't need a sample post.
For audiobooks
- use paperback edition for page count - specific number tasks
- use MMPB edition to verify length for all other tasks including page count minimums that are higher than the standard 100 pages.
Mod
I guess I just don't understand why the page count minimums aren't being addressed. It's still a number that has to be verified.
Summer 30.8..."
Yes the bottom part of that is right.
And we are back to talking about the first part. Initially, that is what I had thought was included and somehow the discussion got sidetracked I think to the finding specific number tasks. Thanks for bringing that up again.
Just for your future consideration:In another group I am in, we went to using the most popular English edition for page counts no matter what edition we actually read. It has solved a lot of the problems being mentioned. The only time two editions might need to be posted would be for cover tasks. Everyone gets credit for the same page count for every book.
Mod
Also, the mods would like some more feedback on some issues we are trying to solve to be as fair as possible to everyone. We are trying to figure out whether it is time to adjust some rules and what effect that would have on playing or moderating this challenge. We would like to make it as easy as possible on both sides.
1. What is your opinion on whether it would be acceptable to just use the page counts listed on the edition of the book you read and linked regardless of format? This would really only affect ebooks since audiobooks would still need the verification process. And the verification process will still be available when needed for certain circumstances.
2. What is your opinion on using a chosen format for each book so that each player is credited with the same page count for the same book regardless of the format it is read in? This is currently in effect when you are looking for something specific in the page count for a task, but expanding it to the whole challenge may affect Big Book Tickets and minimum page count requirement tasks.
3. What if players linked to the edition that qualifies the book for the task instead of the one that was read in the case of ebooks and audiobooks requiring verification? How big of a process is it to link to the qualifying edition rather than the one you read?
4. Any other issues you want to bring to our attention?
Please be respectful of responses and everyone is allowed their own opinion. If you feel more comfortable, you may send a message rather than post in the thread.
My personal opinion is that if any edition qualifies, that should be good enough. Those who reserve books at libraries can’t usually specify a particular copy. Even if I do, I sometimes receive a different one. Regardless of page count, as long as the book isn’t abridged, we are reading the same number of words. We all know that some books have more white space or bigger print than others. We could get around all this as you suggest by choosing hardcover or mmpb as the default. (There are way fewer books published as mmpb than there used to be. Even genre books are often in trade paperback format.) It does get tricky for classics, where there are literally hundreds of editions in hardcover and paperback. I think the same thing could apply to covers. If there is an edition that fits, that could be good enough. The point is to read the book regardless of edition. We would need to link to the edition that has the appropriate cover.
Hi KmarieDThanks for the update!
Re editions, I think the most flexibility is the easiest - being able to link to any edition that works regardless of format.
The update rules look good! Just a few minor suggestions
- GENERAL INFO - it might be helpful to have a line that has a general intro to tasks, e.g. "each season there is a list of tasks to complete, worth between 5-50 points each, tasks can be found...."
- GENERAL BOOK REQ - point 4 is a bit confusing. I think you should start by saying that "if a book asks for a main page genre, it refers to the list of tags..."
As a new player, I find the page count requirements really confusing. It seems that a different edition (MMPB vs. paperback) is required depending on which task you're doing or whether you're claiming it for a BB ticket. I often have to have multiple tabs open looking at different pages of rules and guidelines and help thread to figure out if my book qualifies and what I need to include when I post the book. Maybe this is just confusing because I'm new to this, but there are a lot of little details to keep track of for a reading challenge of this caliber. I would be in favor of simplifying page count requirements and just linking to whatever edition of the book you actually read - but I understand that for classics that have hundreds of editions, that might not be the simplest answer.
Rules Effective Summer 2025In post 2, General Information - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
3. New players and players returning to the challenge after seasons away must consult the Readerboard Names discussion thread to set up or verify the name they will use to post completed tasks. See the details in posts #1 and #2 of that thread.
There is a link to the Readerboard Names -- "See details in post #1 and #2"
Posts 1 and 2 do not provide details -- Posts 1 & 2 are a list of names.
I'm not sure if the link is sending me to the wrong thread, or if the "details" are not in post 1 & 2.
1. What is your opinion on whether it would be acceptable to just use the page counts listed on the edition of the book you read and linked regardless of format? Kindle page counts are definitely better than they were, although self-published ones can still have quite a variance at times. I read a lot of stuff on kindle, so it would be helpful from that perspective.
If you do want to keep a physical copy as a reference, could it be the Top PB across the board, rather than the Top MMPB - as someone else mentioned, fewer new books are getting an MMPB nowadays, and almost never for self-published books.
2. What is your opinion on using a chosen format for each book so that each player is credited with the same page count for the same book regardless of the format it is read in?
See above, atlhough I'm not sure you need to, though. The only place I'd argue for it is for the Group Reads.
3. What if players linked to the edition that qualifies the book for the task instead of the one that was read in the case of ebooks and audiobooks requiring verification? How big of a process is it to link to the qualifying edition rather than the one you read?
As someone who mainly does kindle, I always make sure the kindle I read qualifies in the case of covers, etc. For page count task, isn't this covered under the Top PB rule already?
4. Any other issues you want to bring to our attention?
There was some discussion about moving the Golden Oldies qualifying date to 1960. I just wondered if that got anywhere.
In the rules, you probably don't need the reference to the new book page any more: maybe just take the first bit off and start at "4. To find MPGs, you can, and should, click on the "see more" at the end of the listed tags. The display may reveal up to 10 tags that WILL apply to your book." Other than that, I like the new format.
First, thank you Mods for all the work you put into organizing and running the group. As an early member, I have seen many changes to the rules and requirements as the group has evolved.I agree that it would be helpful to the Mods and members to keep the rules as simple as possible. Page count requirements, whether it be minimum number or specific numbers included in count seem to create the most problems for people. Since ebook page count is now being accepted, that has alleviated some of the burden by doing away with the verification process.
I honestly feel we should do away with tasks requiring certain numbers or a group of numbers in the page count because it is too arbitrary. When searching for these numbers, I scroll my TBR by the edition I have shelved, but if we went with a specific edition for everyone then it would be more time consuming for members to search their TBR. Eliminating this type of task requirement would eliminate a lot of headaches for everyone in the verification department. I think there are plenty of tasks ideas that are more challenging and meaningful than containing specific numbers in the page count and would be easier to track.
I also think when it is necessary to use verification, then PB (trade) and hardback should be used before MMPB. As was mentioned by someone else, not many books are printed as MMPB anymore.
As far as posting, I think as long as the edition you read qualifies for page count, then you should post that edition rather than everyone posting a specified format.
Again, thanks for all the time you put into making this challenge enjoyable.
Lisa wrote: I honestly feel we should do away with tasks requiring certain numbers or a group of numbers in the page count because it is too arbitrary. When searching for these numbers, I scroll my TBR by the edition I have shelved, but if we went with a specific edition for everyone then it would be more time consuming for members to search their TBR. Eliminating this type of task requirement would eliminate a lot of headaches for everyone in the verification department. I think there are plenty of tasks ideas that are more challenging and meaningful than containing specific numbers in the page count and would be easier to track...."
I totally agree on this. I was going to include it in my original post but I didn't know how best to phrase it. As a word person, not a number person, page number tasks for me are boring. Different editions are often wildly different in page count, and that can take a lot of time to research.
And I echo all the praise for the Mods. The amount of time and attention this group requires is amazing. Simplifying editions should make the Mods' job easier too.
I think the mods are doing great and this is a huge undertaking, so really whatever makes it easier for us and you is what is best. I only really wanted to comment on:
3. What if players linked to the edition that qualifies the book for the task instead of the one that was read in the case of ebooks and audiobooks requiring verification? How big of a process is it to link to the qualifying edition rather than the one you read?
I do this anyway, especially for a cover and I frequent the audiobook. But as an example I read this:
Crazy Rich Asians
but posted this
Crazy Rich Asians because I needed the sunglasses.
The version I read was a little longer, but still over 500 pages and the same book.
I always post the book that satisfies the task regardless of what the actual book in my hand looked like or the one I listen to.
I suppose I hope I have been doing it correct, since that is how I have been doing it for YEARS and YEARS.
With regards to tasks with the specific page number:
I get that finding a 23 but not together, in the page number can be difficult, but I suppose when you are already looking for a needle in a haystack if the hardcover has the right page count but the MMPB does not, why couldn't you just use the version that satisfies the task? Instead of having a standard for figuring it out, which was a bit confusing to me.
Those are just my thoughts, but I will do what I am told.
honestly I think the mods should just figure out what's easiest for them to track and the rest of us should do as we're told lol 😄since I usually do audiobooks and ebooks (my eyes aren't what they used to be) I tend to avoid tasks that require page numbers, mostly because I can't be fussed to figure out what the rules are. I would not mind getting rid of these sorts of tasks altogether.
For BB tickets, etc. I really don't care how we go about it, but I think it would be good if there was one standard for everyone. This morning I finished Jane Eyre - it was over 19 hours on audio but the first MMPB doesn't reach 500 pages. I've also had books go the other way (only 14 hours but the MMPB qualifies). I think it would be nice if everyone who read the same books got the same number of BB tickets regardless of which editions they read. Other groups that I've been in use the top rated edition to determine page count, regardless of format. Using the top PB edition would also work. I really don't care how we determine it, but it would satisfy my innate sense of fairness if we did it the same for everyone.
Regarding cover tasks, I always use the edition I actually read to satisfy the task. For me this isn't a hardship, because I get my books mostly off of overdrive or amazon, or occasionally what I can dig up out of the boxes in my own basement... but if I had to rely on library holds this would probably drive me nuts 😄- my library frequently gives me a different edition to the one I actually put the hold on!
Lisa wrote: "First, thank you Mods for all the work you put into organizing and running the group. As an early member, I have seen many changes to the rules and requirements as the group has evolved.I agree t..."
I agree with Lisa and others. Thank you to the moderators for all the work you do! It is apparent that page number tasks are causing a lot of confusion, complicated rules, and possibly making life difficult for moderators, not to mention how tedious they are for participants. I'd be in favor of eliminating page number tasks.
3. What if players linked to the edition that qualifies the book for the task instead of the one that was read in the case of ebooks and audiobooks requiring verification? How big of a process is it to link to the qualifying edition rather than the one you read?I actually think it would be easier to link to the qualifying edition than the one I read
honestly I think the mods should just figure out what's easiest for them to track and the rest of us should do as we're told lol 😄
I agree!
Mod
I have one thing that we might consider as far as any qualifying edition goes. I think if you are reading a book in English that was published in English, then your qualifying edition should also be in English. I know that as the rules stand right now the top MMPB is used regardless of language but changing the language can have effects on length. I think if you are reading a book in translation that was published in English you should be able to use either for the page count.
Mod
Would a rule for choosing an edition in the language you read it or English work if this the direction we go with?
I guess I am envisioning if you read a book published originally in English but in translation, then you can use either an English edition (any qualifying one) or, if available, the edition of the language you read it in. Because some translations might have a larger page count and if you read the book in that language then you legit read more words so that should count.
Jecca wrote: "I think the mods are doing great and this is a huge undertaking, so really whatever makes it easier for us and you is what is best. I only really wanted to comment on:
3. What if players linked t..."
I have been having to swap books through tasks because the book I get is not the one with the right cover. I am not saying you are right or wrong, as you say they are the same read. However if we are going to just post the cover of an alternate edition I think it should be stated as acceptable in the rules
Marie (UK) wrote: I have been having to swap books through tasks because the book I get is not the one with the right cover. I am not saying you are right or wrong, as you say they are the same read. However if we are going to just post the cover of an alternate edition I think it should be stated as acceptable in the rules"
Yes, I think that is part of the point, to make sure the rules reflect what is actually required.
Mod
The rules at this moment does state, the book claimed has to be the edition you read. I think that is more what we are discussing changing
The Seasonal Reading Challenge
Books mentioned in this topic
Coming Up Short: A Memoir of My America (other topics)Coming Up Short: A Memoir of My America (other topics)
Murder on the Orient Express (other topics)
Crazy Rich Asians (other topics)
Crazy Rich Asians (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
David Grann (other topics)Simon Winchester (other topics)
After watching the discussion in regards to page number accuracy and having the correct editions, this is what the mods have come with up.
1) Removing the requirement for verification of length on e-books that do not have a physical copy. If the page number is listed on the Goodreads main page for the e-book and it satisfies the minimum page count for books.
If the e-book has no physical copy and does not list the page number, it will still need to be verified for length.
We would like to implement this change due the fact that page numbers for e-books seem to becoming more accurate.
2) For Page number tasks. We want to implement using a standard for the page count instead of the version we read. Since it is often difficult to know the version you getting or the page count is listed wrong, we will now use:
The paperback with the highest rating. We thing using the paperback in this situation is better since more books have paperback than MMPB. If there is no paperback, then we will use the hardcover.
E-books with no physical copy will still be excluded from page number tasks.
Before we make the changes permanent, we wanted to get the general consensus and to give a heads up.
.