Women's Classic Literature Enthusiasts discussion

In Muffled Night Buddy read

I will be starting this next week.

Hi Ellen, thank you for the reminder - Yes, I also will start next week. I am at the end of another project - and another group read is 3 chapters every 3 days and then a break - it is remarkably slow!

Yes - looking forward to - In Muffled Night :)

Hi folks, I started reading and I think it is brilliant. I like the voice, style and tone of our narrator - the first chapter introduces us to the main characters - the Murray family, and friends - Diana Ford and Mary Spens, and the housekeeper Helen Bailey - it is done effortlessly and leaves you intrigued by the chapter end.
I also like the Shakespeare quotes at the beginning of each chp.

I'm reading slowly - because it is diabolically hot where I live and my head is done in with the heat.

I am looking forward to your comments - Ellen and Charlene.

I started yesterday. First chapter definitely lets you in on the personality of the characters. It appears from the introduction that the one who ought to get murdered doesn't.

Hi - I don't generally read introductions. Sometimes afterwards. I've been unwell, so haven't progressed very far - a bad head cold/sinus infection. I hope to feel better soon.

I haven't been getting along very quickly either. One of my dogs has been very sick and I just can't concentrate. Hope to be back on track in a few days.

Hi Ellen - I hope your dog will recover. I have 2 dogs and I'm away from home - and ill - but getting better. I hope my dogs are ok :)

I should finish Strong Poison tonight and then start this one.

Hi Charlene - I've been reading - China Court - with the Virago group - and I've finished. So, I'll be back to - In Muffled Night - tomorrow. I wonder if Ellen has been able to continue?

I'm looking forward to it.

Laura wrote: "Hi Charlene - I've been reading - China Court - with the Virago group - and I've finished. So, I'll be back to - In Muffled Night - tomorrow. I wonder if Ellen has been able to continue?

I'm looki..."
I did finish it and it was a good read. I thought the solution in regards to one of the guilty parties was a bit far fetched but it kept me guessing.

Oh Ellen - you know all the ins and outs! Ok - I'll read quickly and see if I can guess which is the "far-fetched guilty party" !

I'm on page 74 - this is the first point at which I object to the description of a character - Eleanor Spens.

Glancing at her strong features and noting the sudden light which swept across them at the mention of her brother, Woods realized that here was one of those cases of a woman, lacking in sex attraction and outwardly rather unfeminine, who had the maternal instinct strongly developed, and who had turned all the deep current of her affections into her feelings for the young brother.

Up until that point I liked Detective Inspector Woods - but the above is pompous and very patronising. Makes me instantly check the date of publication - 1933.

The rest - I'm only surprised that there are no direct interviews - all of the information so far has been revealed in the course of Woods explaining to his Superintendent - Gowing. So, I think this interview with Eleanor Spens - is the first - and clearly significant.

The rest of the evidence I've followed quite easily (view spoiler)[- but in my mind I keep thinking - what's the point in spending hours washing the carpet when there is a bloody great body in the room to dispose of - and the only answer I can think of is - the person who washed the carpet believed that Helen wasn't dead - and was only unconscious. She dragged the body into the bedroom hoping to hide it and clean the carpet - and I expecting Helen to recover? As we know - it's the knife cuts - done later that actually are the cause of death.

I would guess this person - a woman also stole the jewellery and mink coat. She was able to leave the house, and returned to continue with her carpet cleaning. This makes sense as Helen was hit severely on the forehead - in the living room - in front of the fire and as her body fell to the floor - blood spattered forwards towards the fireplace. Gorey ! (hide spoiler)]

Oh Wow !! - I've finished this - and it is so well written. Everything is so easy to follow and so concisely and so logically explained. Many times, I'm watching Vera or some other detective series and I nod off with the tedious explanations, or I'm just completely lost. Not here - everything makes sense. It is so well done - we follow Woods, through his own deductive thinking - re-examining details that bother him, that don't quite make sense.

When I read Mary Spens statement I thought yes - that sounds true - how she lifts Helen's head onto her lap and her dress and underskirt are soaked in blood. The evidence stacks up against her - but what is her motive for killing her friend?

I also liked the fact that it all makes sense psychologically.

I won't write anymore here - because it will all need to be covered up by Spoilers, but wow I am really impressed.

Yes - a very abrupt ending - but ok. The point is - case completely solved to the last detail.

And wow - what a shitty judge - all that JUDEGEMENT about Mary being a woman - "leaving her husband" - and "liking cocktails" - and for that he's so eager to pronounce the death sentence. That is such an scathing comment on the prejudice against women and women's freedoms - it really made me feel UGH - how awful, how careful women had to be - no question is ever made against a man - and how many women he sleeps with - the complete hypocrisy with regard to sexual morality.

I remember Angela Carter - in the introduction to her book Wayward Girls and Wicked Women - "Morality with regard to women is ALWAYS about sexual morality."

I haven't read the introduction to In Muffled Night yet - but I gather from a glancing comment at someone's review that the story is based on a real murder trial in Scotland - and that it was a very high profile case - the year was 1933, same year as Erskine Muir's book.

So glad I have read this. Murder-mysteries are not my usual fare, but I think Muir's fantastic recount is worth following - in her other books.

Hi Ellen - I finished this last night and my first response was - Brilliant. But I do have some niggles. I'll put it in spoilers.

(view spoiler)[ It's all to do with Eleanor. Yes, she hated, loathed Mary - and I could imagine her attacking Mary in such a way, but her attack on Helen - is a little odd. James has already inflicted the near fatal blow on Helen's forehead and Mary arrives - and finds Helen in the dead faint. And then James comes back and tries to persuade Mary to not call the doctor. Mary insists and goes downstairs, followed by James - and that's when Eleanor who has been hiding in a back room, comes out - and attacks Helen with the axe slashing at her head and neck 14 times, while poor Helen tries to ward off the blows with her hands - which are all mangled.

The viciousness of the attack by Eleanor on Helen is a bit odd - there is no connection between E and H - except that Helen is going to help Mary - to lend her money and try to help set her up in a sewing business.

Also it's a little odd that Eleanor is there that same Friday evening. There is no connection between Eleanor and James either at that point. She turns up at The Towers because she is consumed by curiosity as to what the outcome of Mary's discussion will be with Helen. Will she leave her husband Jack, E's brother? But how does Eleanor know what time Mary will go to The Towers?

And the door left open - James is wandering in the garden, thinking about how to approach Helen - and he leaves the front door open by mistake, when he enters the house - odd, but ok.

Then Eleanor arrives - front door is open - she hears the row upstairs between James and Helen - and goes up. Wouldn't James be rather surprised to see her?

Then Mary arrives - front door is still open - she also goes up and Eleanor having heard Mary's car hides with James in the cupboard in the sitting room, because they're unable to get out quickly enough - the bedroom door is locked. So Mary goes in and finds the poor unconscious Helen on the floor etc. She's gone through to the bedroom - so it gives a chance for E to disappear.

Did Eleanor want to speak to Helen -to stop her giving money to Mary - not a very sensible directive.
Did Eleanor want to speak to James - she didn't know about the connection of James with Helen. And does she think James would stop Helen helping Mary. James likes Mary.

Eleanor's actions don't add up. Her presence in the house on the Friday is actually quite odd. She's gone off to Brighton to be by herself - but worries about her brother and drives back to London, because she just has to know what Mary is up to - that's also odd.

The narrator - Woods - at the ends, says that Eleanor is driven in all aspects of her life by jealousy - so she's really bordering on a sort of mania - madness essentially. But killing Helen - in order to support James, who keeps hoping that the blow he gave is fatal. Why would Eleanor do that?

Ah she kills Helen so that Mary will be implicated in her murder - that finally makes sense. Because James has already suggested that Mary will keep silent because she knows her presence in the house implicates her - and Eleanor just decides - to step in and finish off Helen as a sure way to ensure Mary is trapped. Because if Helen had survived - Mary and Helen's story would be to expose James - for the initial blow, but with Helen dead - then it is only Mary's word against what James says.

It's complicated but also water-tight.
And the oddity of Eleanor turning up on that night - is more or less coincidence. I guess her intention was to confront Mary - she must have know Mary would go to The Towers that evening? (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Your synopsis is so concise and logical. This book mirrors the time period in that women are judged in an entirely different way than men. I know there were several true life cases were women were judged guilty not on evidence but what was considered moral lapses in their past. The judge does the same thing to Harriet Vane in Strong Poison essentially saying that the fact she would live with a man out of wedlock makes it more likely she would commit murder.

Ellen wrote: "Your synopsis is so concise and logical. This book mirrors the time period in that women are judged in an entirely different way than men. I know there were several true life cases were women were ..."

It's utterly disgusting isn't is? I know that women as second-class citizens is the theme for many novels - but it really hits a nerve in these crime-murder mysteries - where a woman is judged not on the facts, or the evidence against her or key witnesses, but - how much she drinks, or if she's planning to leave her husband, or if she's bought too many dresses - it really made me feel disgust - with our society - I guess of the past. But it's still the case today.

I lived in Cyprus for 20 years - and I cannot tell you how many times when I was interviewed for jobs - the male interviewers asked if I was married, who my husband was, and where did he work etc. And when I was divorced - that was the basis for refusing me the job - I desperately needed. This is in the last 20 years. The U.K., Canada, maybe the U.S. and certainly northern European countries such as Norway, Sweden, Iceland etc, - have a good record of insisting on women's rights.

I liked Celia Fremlin's The Hours Before Dawn 1958, which is classed as Domestic noir - and I read Uncle Paul - which is not quite so good. But I think Fremlin follows on from the Golden-Age?

Did you read the other two D. Erskine Muir murder-mysteries?

I have not read the other two Muir mysteries but I plan to do so. I looked up your suggestion of The Hours Before Dawn. It sounds really intriguing. I going to look for it.

Hi Ellen - I put your comment, reference the judge in Strong Poison, in my review - with all credit to you. I hope that is ok?

I wonder if there are there more murder-mystery stories where women are judged in terms of their life-style decisions - living with a man, instead of marrying him; planning to leave an unhappy marriage; owning a large selection of clothes?

I think Barbara Pym - is doing something similar - I read A Glass of Blessings recently. She is also examining the way in which women are allocated roles in society and coerced into maintaining them. Wilmet in this case indulges in what we would today call an emotional affair - only to find the man in question is gay - and is thus actually saved a lot of suffering.

I hope you enjoy the Celia Fremlin - her books are receiving quite a bit of attention.

https://www.shedunnitshow.com/edithth...

This is the true life case that I was thinking of when I mentioned moral lapses having fatal consequences. This podcast aired in 2019 on Shedunit.

Oh ! - I listened to the podcast above - Shedunnit - and it's horrifying - specifically the descriptions of how Edith Thompson dies. I would advise caution - to anyone thinking to listen to it.

In the UK they abolished the death penalty. After his execution a man was indeed found to be innocence. There was a huge public outcry. In so many cases there just cannot be absolute certainly. Also I think Eleanor Spens would nowadays be classified as mentally ill to kill someone with the motive indicated.

Oh yes - that was certainly my understanding of Eleanor - that she was unbalanced to say the least.

I've always thought that capital punishment is utterly abhorrent, not simply for the possibility of a mistake, but because we humans do not have the right to take away life. I think the need to punish is understandable - but I think the emphasis more nowadays at looking at individuals within a society and understanding that individuals are part of a whole. In some way therefore, we are all responsible for the crimes carried out by others. (That reminds me of a very good TV series released recently - Adolescence.)

Although I don't generally read crime fiction, I've always enjoyed Georges Simenon's books. He is a crime writer who focusses on why the person kills - and the circumstances. You might like - The Man Who Watched the Trains Go By, the story of Kees Popinga, who commits a brutal crime and yet we remain on his side until the end.

My brain is also nagging at me about Margaret Atwood's novel - Alias Grace which is based on a real couple who commit murder. I think it is recorded first in the diaries of Susanna Moodie. But authors always use materials from the real world. Feel free to ignore all recommendations - there's nothing worse than having someone add to your personal pile of books. :)

You never have to worry about offering recommendations. Mystery is my main genre. Nothing else even close. I used to read a lot more YA for the many years I worked in a middle school library. I liked being able to make recommendation to the students. I enjoy nonfiction mostly history. I have heard lots of praise for Simenon's Maigret series and I keep meaning to try one. Maybe now is the time.

Oh Yes, I love Simenon. And you always get a very nice slice of History with his books too. I always end up looking up all the places and trains and journeys his characters make - and they eventually end up in Paris - all the streets and corners and parks are real. I moved on to his roman durs - which don't include Inspector Maigret, but I prefer them - Monsieur Monde Vanishes - super good. The Strangers in the House - I also enjoyed.

If you want to read any of those -roman durs - there are plenty to choose from, I'll do a buddy read with you. Although we won't be allowed to do it here !! Or a Maigret - I like those also.

I finished this over the weekend. I am still trying to decide on rating. I thought there was something off with Eleanor as I was reading but really couldn't peg what it was.

I didn't see this in the discussion thread yet.

https://moonstonepress.co.uk/dorothy-...