Victorians! discussion

I'm sorry that the post is late--we're traveling, so I couldn't get to it until this evening. The narrative is picked up by persons even further removed in relationship to the sisters. We hear, in fairly quick succession, from the Count's cook, the doctor who attends "Lady Glyde," and the woman who prepares her body for burial. They tell their stories in a straightforward manner, and Collins uses their perception of the facts to reveal to the reader a completely different story. We know, even if they don't, that underhanded dealings are going on!

We hear that Laura has met an untimely end, apparently by a heart attack. Did this seem plausible to you? Did you believe that Laura had died, or were you not taken in by appearances?

The next narrator is one very familiar to us as Walter Hartright takes up the story. He is returning safely from his travels, and we learn that he narrowly escaped death three times. He's a little older and wiser, but one thing has not changed--he is still hopelessly in love with Laura. Grief-stricken at the news of her death, he makes his way to her grave to mourn. Miraculously, he encounters Marian and a veiled lady who turns out to be . . . his lost love, Laura!

Walter discovers from Marian the diabolical plot that Laura has been the victim of. The Count had recaptured poor Anne Catherick and after luring Laura to London in the false hope of being reunited with her sister, he has Laura incarcerated in the Asylum as Anne and introduces Anne to his household as Laura. Anne's frail constitution is unable to take the strain of this imposture and she dies. Do you believe her death to be of natural causes, as the doctor reports? The Count claims knowledge of herbs and medicines--could he have used this knowledge to hasten Anne's death, or is she just overwhelmed by the knowledge that she is at the mercy of Sir Percival Glyde's friends?

The sisters, denied shelter at Limmeredge House, flee with Walter to London to hide from all of the people who are searching for them--the agents of the Asylum and those in the pay of the Count. In the city, they are able to live in obscurity while they formulate plans to restore Laura to her life. The months in the Asylum have taken a sad toll on Laura. She is reduced to a feeble, childlike state and is completely dependent on Marian and Walter. What do you think of Walter's continued devotion to her? Do you admire his constancy, or do you wonder at his lack of attraction to the "magnificent Marian?"

Someone else does recognize Marian's superb character, but it doesn't make her happy. What do you think of the Count's letter to Marian? Is it motivated by a desire to keep her quiet with the least amount of trouble to himself, or is he honestly trying to avoid having to hurt her?

Walter sets out to find out Sir Percival's "secret," but encounters several dead ends and has a couple of close calls. He does discover a liaison between Anne's mother and Sir Percival. Sir Percival as Anne's father seems to have been ruled out (something that would have added a whole level of creepiness to the story!). At the end of this week's section, Walter is setting out to talk directly to Anne's mother, who doesn't seem to be a very pleasant person.

So does Collins have you on the edge of your seat? Are you all agog to know Sir Percival's secret and the lovely Laura's fate? Only two weeks before all is revealed!

I was relieved that Collins didn't draw out the reveal of Anne's death in place of Laura since it was blindingly obvious and I already find the pace of this novel to be tedious. Also tiresome is the amnesia trope.

Nancy wrote: "Also tiresome is the amnesia trope..."

To be fair, at the time the novel was written, it was probably a cutting-edge plot twist! LOL

There is so much focus on Laura in this story. She is the sun around which the other characters revolve. They are all fighting for her, and putting themselves at great personal risk to do so. I suppose we have to accept that their actions and behavior give credibility to the idea that she is worth such devotion, but it is not apparent in the story itself. We see so much of Marian in these pages since she narrates, so we get the full force of her personality. We also get the observations from those around Marian about her character, but aside from what Marian and Walter say about her, we get almost nothing about Laura. She has very little dialogue in the book, and we are just "told" that she has an admirable character and personality. Personally, I feel that if Collins wanted us to be sympathetic to her (as he obviously does), he should have made her a more rounded character. In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m more Team Marian and feel annoyed with Walter for his choice.

However, Victorian audiences may have found this "wilting flower" character appealing. What do you think? Both her beauty and her mental state suffer from her experiences; she becomes mentally like a child from being locked in an asylum for a couple of months. I feel like the juxtaposition of Marian and Laura doesn't do Laura any favors; it only highlights her weakness and makes her, as a character, much less appealing (again, to me--Victorian audiences may have loved the "helpless" female). I don't know--more than likely, if Walter did become disenchanted with Laura's mental digression and repudiated her, I would be critical of his inconstancy. He really can't win at this point with me--he should have just picked Marian to start with! :)

I agree with the view of Laura and also recognise it is a modern view where we consider an intelligent and strong woman equally worthy of love (although I don’t think we’ve entirely shaken off the role of physical beauty in attracting a mate!)

As well as being a traditional Victorian heroine, I think Laura also appeals to Walter as the traditional male, protector and defender of the weak. His comment “Mine to support, to protect, to cherish, to restore” shows how willingly he is slipping into this almost paternal role. Marian would never be the submissive child he wants.

In fact, they treat her as a child. A woman who has married and had her own wealth is being allowed to play at contributing to the household with her ‘little paintings’. I’m Team Marian too, but then I’m not a Victorian!

Cindy wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Also tiresome is the amnesia trope..."

To be fair, at the time the novel was written, it was probably a cutting-edge plot twist! LOL"

Oh, I know; I’ve had that thought, too. I’ll confess to having read ahead at this point (frankly, I found the novel sufficiently tedious that I had hated to interrupt forward momentum while I was in the throes of it!) and there are other events that got a huge eye-roll from me. Ground-breaking at the time, but there’s not enough there in terms of plot, language, characterization, or more than anything else, insight to offset the very predictable nature of the story for a 21st-century reader. At least for me. All credit to Collins for innovation, but it makes sense to me that he’s second-tier among Victorians now.

I liked Cousin Henry more than this and I never thought I’d say that. It was irritating and slow-moving (not as slow as Woman in White at that), but at least the characters were more interesting and evinced more shades of gray. Laura is unendurable.

Yet another gripping instalment of this excellent novel, one which along with The Moonstone provided the groundbreaking (hate to use this ugly modern term but it’s the best way to communicate the idea these days) innovation, devices, (another ugly word) and infrastructure that was copied by almost all future crime writers of the twentieth/twenty-first centuries and is still being copied today.

I have to chuckle when watching modern whodunnits getting rave reviews when they wheel out yet another old twist, device (ugh) etc. that authors like Collins and his contemporaries had used centuries before.

An understanding of the sensibilities and attitudes of the Victorian reader would be helpful in appreciating this novel. For example, Lord Shaftesbury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony...) said this in 1851 when campaigning for reform of the ‘lunacy laws.’ (More details in the wikipedia article)

’Fits are treated as madness and madness constitutes a right as it were to treat people as vermin’

His own son, Maurice, suffered from epilepsy.

There is no doubt in my mind that Fosco murdered Anne Catherick. Her weak heart would not stand shocks. Fosco made sure that he shocked her enough to kill her. That false concern/compassion during her imprisonment at Foscos just sickened me.

Laura has to be the central character in this novel because she is the main victim, the person most abused. The abuse attacked her from all directions.
1. A powerful aristocratic suitor-turned-husband, wife beater, marrying Laura for money to sustain enormous debts. - Percival Glyde (I have divested him of his title because of his wickedness.)
2. A dangerous, gangster parasite wiping out on anyone who gets in his way who has a perverse delight in stroking small animals - Fosco ( the ‘Count’ title is obviously false or stolen or obtained by murder so I have removed it.)
3. An egomaniacal, vain, narcissistic and self-opinionated fop who would rather pretend not to identify a member of his own family if that meant he didn’t have to get out of his chair. It was he who robbed Laura of her name and identity more than anyone else. - Fairlie (He doesn’t deserve to have his Christian name mentioned.)

In many ways Laura has been the strongest woman in this novel. Laura has had to be strong to survive the onslaughts described above, even if her mental state has suffered badly. It shouldn’t be forgotten how much she has stood up to her brutal husband, how unlike other women she continued to repel the mind games of Fosco and how she has had to cope with abandonment by her uncle. She might be barely surviving but the fact that she has survived has given hope to Walter and Marian’s chances of redeeming the situation.

The idea of three of them living quietly in a London back street is no different from todays ‘undercover cell’ which is often found in modern crime drama. Living under the noses of the Fosco/Glyde spies has to be dangerous but Walter’s spell abroad has given him the skills to operate covertly and if discovered, lose his tracker. His other main weapon against such formidable opponents is his resolution to succeed. Walter has already cheated death three times. He has a resolute determination to recover Laura’s identity and his obvious bravery is a quality that hasn’t yet been tested in Fosco and Glyde. Why does Fosco avoid going back to Italy? Is there a cowardly heart beating beneath Fosco’s bulk? So far he has only had to deal with weak or weakened adversaries but Walter is now made of sterner stuff and might be able match the heinous schemer.

^^You left out her father, the original cause of her downfall. Not only did he betroth her to Sir Percival without apparently doing any due diligence about his finances (or did he know and not care? What price for a title?), he so emotionally entangled her that she couldn't imagine not following through on his commitment.

The root issue of the novel for me is that there are no shades of gray in any of the characters, they're either all good or all evil.

I love this novel so far, and I don't find it tedious or obvious in any way, especially compared to other Victorian novels. I was honestly shocked when I discovered that Laura was still alive. Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake! I'm also team Marian, and while I don't wish any harm to come to Laura, I still have a hope that Walter will have an honorable way to let that relationship evolve into a more platonic one and so he can fall in love with Marian. Laura is a not a strong person in general, and the indications are that she might not recover completely from the trauma she has experienced, but she is definitely not as insipid as some other Victorian heroines. My beloved Dickens had a knack for those wilting flower types of women, Lucy Manette and Dora Spenlow Copperfield being prime examples. Laura can show quite a bit of backbone on rare occasions, such as her brave attempts to meet with Anne Catherick.
I also wonder if the secret which hangs over Sir Percival is that he is actually not Sir Percival Glyde at all, but rather is assuming the identity of the actual Sir Percival who may have died while living in Europe. We shall see.

Trev wrote: "In many ways Laura has been the strongest woman in this novel. Laura has had to be strong to survive the onslaughts described above, even if her mental state has suffered badly. It shouldn’t be forgotten how much she has stood up to her brutal husband, how unlike other women she continued to repel the mind games of Fosco and how she has had to cope with abandonment by her uncle. She might be barely surviving but the fact that she has survived has given hope to Walter and Marian’s chances of redeeming the situation...."

I agree that Laura has shown strength and courage in resisting her husband, actually defying him to his face when she had to be afraid of physical retaliation. She is definitely head and shoulders above poor Lucie Manette! :) I also believe that Fosco killed her, either by creating shocks to her system so that her heart would fail, or perhaps with a little bit of chemical help. I'm doubtful that they would necessarily been able to recognize that given the state of medicine at the time. The bottom line was that Anne HAD to die in order for their plan to work. They didn't have time to sit around and wait for it to happen naturally.

Hester Pinhorn's narrative voice is almost a shock it is so different from any of the others. She "never learnt to read or write". Her voice and point of view reminds me that Walter is sooo romantic. And he does drag the story out. That is his character. As Cindy has pointed out, these witnesses show us bits of the plot that they are not themselves aware of. Hester Pinhorn repeatedly defends Count Fosco, but she describes his reaction to Anne's fatal illness in a way that clearly points out that he is distressed.

My mistress took this ill news more quietly than my master. He was a big, fat, odd sort of elderly man, who kept birds and white mice, and spoke to them as if they were so many Christian children. He seemed terribly cut up by what had happened. “Ah! poor Lady Glyde! poor dear Lady Glyde!” he says, and went stalking about, wringing his fat hands more like a play-actor than a gentleman. For one question my mistress asked the doctor about the lady’s chances of getting round, he asked a good fifty at least. I declare he quite tormented us all,...

Since we know his plan was to kill off Laura, his distress is a clue. He wanted Anne dead, for sure, but not so soon. So a very important part of his scheme has gone awry. Making the importance of determining Laura's arrival date the main focus.

Fosco has to deal with the sad news.
by John McLenan.