Constant Reader discussion

I decided to nominate this book although I had not read it, because it is on the New York Times Reader Top 100 list for 2000 -2024. I had read 72 of the books and wanted to add to my total, and I was sure it would be a good book from the reviews. I certainly wasn’t disappointed, and I hope you weren’t either.

Madeline Miller’s biography says that she was born in Boston and that she grew up in New York City and Philadelphia. She has both a BA and MA in the classics from Brown University. She states that she has taught and tutored Latin, Greek and Shakespeare for more than 20 years. Her first novel was Song of Achilles for which she received the 2021 Orange Prize for Fiction. Apparently, there is going to be mini-series based on Circe, but I couldn’t find much information on the IMDB.

Here is a link of Miller being interviewed about her writing of Song of Achilles and Circe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGAbX... I must admit that I haven’t finished watching yet.

I was struck by the fact that Circe is not like the other gods and godesses. She has empathy for others in that she helps Prometheus, and she just doesn’t fit it. In the interview with Miller in the back of the edition that I read, she says that Homer’s description of Circe was as a “dread godess who speaks like a mortal”. I noticed that the other gods commented on Circe’s voice being unpleasant-sounding. Do you think that Circe is more mortal than divine? What other qualities does Circe exhibit that add to her differences?

I loved CIRCE but I read it in 2019 so I don’t remember a lot of details. This is what I wrote at the time: I decided to read this book because Ms. Miller was scheduled to speak as part of our local library’s visiting author series. I was worried I would not get to the top of the hold list in time. Lo and behold! The audio download arrived the night before her scheduled talk. The next day I listened to the first 6 chapters - just enough to be hooked. I enjoyed this novel very much and I was captivated by the author. If you ever get a chance to hear her, don’t hesitate for a moment. She views her mythological creations as totally consistent with the tradition of oral story-telling. In the retelling of tales, bards changed plots, further developed characters, and enhanced or embellished details. Not only does Ms. Miller write enchanting stories, she tells them with passion and drama, using her knowledge of classical literature and mythology along with the story-telling skills she said she learned from directing Shakespearean dramas.

I guess I’m going to be a lone voice in this since I didn’t like Miller’s portrayal of Circe at all.

In Book X of the Odyssey, Circe is portrayed as empowered, confident, and self-assured. She helps Odysseus but sends him on his way when he’s ready to leave. She doesn’t try to cling to him or fall apart. She is perfectly comfortable being strong, independent, and one unto herself.

Miller’s Circe is nothing like that. She develops a clingy obsession with one man after another. And to add insult to injury, she gives up her power by transforming herself into a mortal to live out her days with the man she currently loves. Very disappointing.

I ended my review at the time by saying, “I was hoping for a wild and untamable Circe. Instead, I got the Little Mermaid.”

My review, posted in 2018 when I read the novel: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I read this a couple of years ago and enjoyed it. It left me pondering the pros and cons of mortality.

Tamara wrote: "I guess I’m going to be a lone voice in this since I didn’t like Miller’s portrayal of Circe at all.

In Book X of the Odyssey, Circe is portrayed as empowered, confident, and self-assured. She hel..."

Tamara, I appreciate your take on Circe. I don't agree that she was clingy or weak. I felt that Miller was showing her as a person (not a god) who had feelings. I felt that she grew in strength when she was able to stand up to Hermes and to her father. I felt that her father should have admired her for standing up to him. She was also the only one to stand up to the undersea god for which she received the poisonous tail. I think that she turned her weaknesses into strengths.

I have never read The Odyssey by Homer, but I know the story. I have read books that are based on Odyssey like This Tender Land by William Kent Krueger. So, I found it interesting to meet the “real” Odysseus as imagined by Miller. We learn about the various obstacles that he faced from a different perspective. What did you think of Miller’s portrayal of Odysseus? Does he come off as a good guy or a bad guy or just a very complicated mortal?

Jane, I've read several translations of Homer's Odyssey. One of my favorites is The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson. Wilson's translations, including her translation of The Iliad are a bit quirky, but I think they are refreshing and delightful.

It's been a while since I read Miller's book, so I can't remember her portrayal of Odysseus. But in all the translations I've read, Odysseus comes across as shrewd, complicated, and manipulative. I don't think he is particularly likable. But, then, again, I find few males in Greek mythology that are particularly likable.

One of the reasons I like Circe so much is because she comes across as strong and independent. Homer even has Odysseus treating her with respect. She teaches Odysseus, guides him, tells him what to do and what not to do when he gets to the underworld and what to watch out for on his journey home. He actually listens to her and follows her instructions. It is a rarity in Greek mythology to find a male treating a female with respect. Odysseus even chastises Athena after she reveals her identity upon his return to Ithaca. He is upset with her for abandoning him for so long.

I understand your reading of Circe. And I know i'm an outlier in my disappointment in Miller's treatment of Circe. But I think I am influenced in my opinion by Homer's treatment of her. She never subsumes her identity to please Odysseus. She is who she is. She is one unto herself. And when Odysseus is ready to go, she sends him off without shedding a tear.

Young women have so few strong role models in literature. And to see Miller's Circe giving up her power for the sake of a man bothers me no end. But that's just me, Jane. I understand you see her differently. And I respect that. No worries. As I've said on many occasions, it would be a dull world if we all thought the same.

Tamara wrote: "Jane, I've read several translations of Homer's Odyssey. One of my favorites is The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson. Wilson's translations, including her translation of [book:Th..."

Tamara, you definitely know your Greek mythology, and I appreciate your views here. In CIRCE, I found that Odysseus was quite charming and reasonable when he was on the island with Circe. Telemachus and Penelope tell a story of a very troubled man. When Odysseus returned home, he really missed the excitement that he had experienced on his voyages. He didn't seem to be satisfied with anything that he was doing in his own country, and he became very paranoid. This is why he attempted to kill Telegonus. In this book, the author talks about how Odysseus treats those who are not on his social level. "Odysseus had endless patience with Agamemnon's caprice, but with those beneath him he could be harsh as winter storms." and "It might even have been a pleasure of sorts, to squash some little complaining soul who dared to stand in the way of the Best of the Greeks." I get the impression that Penelope and Telemachus are better off without Odysseus.

Jane wrote: "When Odysseus returned home, he really missed the excitement that he had experienced on his voyages..."

Jane, your words reminded me of Tennyson's beautiful poem, "Ulysses." Tennyson portrays Ulysses as arrogant, egotistical, and restless. I love the sentiments expressed in the last few lines of the poem.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...

Tamara wrote: "Jane wrote: "When Odysseus returned home, he really missed the excitement that he had experienced on his voyages..."

Jane, your words reminded me of Tennyson's beautiful poem, "Ulysses." Tennyson ..."

Thank you for posting this poem, Tamara. I particularly love these lines:
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!

It's a beautiful poem. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Thanks for nominating this, Jane. My progress was slow because of other responsibilities but I really liked it. Now, I want to read The Song of Achilles. Also, thanks for the youtube interview. I plan to listen to that next.

I actually have read The Odyssey twice. First I read the Fagles translation. I think that was in the old pre-goodreads CR days. Then, more recently, I read the Wilson translation. Both really opened up what is, essentially, a great adventure story for me. As an aside, I also read The Iliad but only once so far. It was less to my taste, far more blood and guts. Unlike Tamara, I didn't have strong memories of Circe, unfortunately. I feel like maybe I should go back and reread that section. I only remembered that she allowed Ulysses to stay and gave him guidance that would help him make his way safely.

In this portrayal, Circe did come off as very strong to me but complex. Strength doesn't usually preclude vulnerability. That is true of both men and women. However, Circe was a god and I realize that those truths may not apply. I did like that Miller paired the strength with emotions and trials that every woman may have experienced. I liked seeing an incredibly strong being's ways of dealing with them. The birth scene was amazing as was her experience of being a new mother.

Both times when I read The Odyssey, I wondered what would have happened to Ulysses after he came home. Half of the male population of his kingdom was killed with him at war or on the way home. All of that could be blamed on him. Then, he killed most of the other young men in horribly violent and bloody ways when he came home and found them as suitors for Penelope. Also, how do you match the exhilaration of surviving all that he did? And, who is going to give him adequate adulation for it? I thought Miller portrayed him exactly as I expected he would come to be.

Barbara wrote: "Thanks for nominating this, Jane. My progress was slow because of other responsibilities but I really liked it. Now, I want to read The Song of Achilles. Also, thanks for the youtub..."
Thank you for reminding me of all of the young men who have died because of Ulysses. I do need to read The Odyssey, but will I??

I had written this question which ties in to what you said about the portrayal of Circe:

In the interview at the back of the book, Miller is asked if she intended the book to be a feminist piece. She says that “the unfortunate truth is that sexism, misogyny, and out culture’s distrust of powerful women are timeless.” Do you consider this book to be a feminist piece?

Thank you for mentioning the interview at the back of the book, Jane. I had missed it before. I had looked at the cast of characters while reading but didn't realize that there was anything more.

I am sort of ambivalent about it being a feminist piece, even though Miller said it is, because that makes me think of something that was written to persuade people to a certain viewpoint. I didn't think that she altered anything to show how capable Circe was. I don't think that she did anything to highlight the misogyny either. It's all there in the original story. She just added complexity and, with it, some extra relevance for women, certainly today and maybe always. I'd love to know if others disagree with that.

There's a paragraph from the interview that I'd like to transcribe here because it really hit me. Even with the myths of the Gods, we keep repeating history. This is a quote from Madeline Miller:

For me, the Greek gods reflect what happens to humans when we see only ourselves and our own needs. The great gods have such infinite power and resources that they have forgotten what it's like to want, to suffer, to show empathy, to face all of life's minor inconveniences. They have forgotten what it's like to be told no, and it has turned them into monsters, obsessed with dominance and hierarchy, always trying to claw a little higher. The frightening thing is how real this phenomenon is. I see the gods as a cautionary tale.

Barb,
I love that quote that you highlighted here. It is so true that this is what's happening now in our country. The government has no empathy for the average citizen. I know that people don't like to get political in our literary discussions, but I really believe this. Our current president doesn't like to be told no. If you disagree with him, he will fire you.

Back to the book: Circe was the only god who seemed sympathetic to me. She was a strong woman who believed in her own rights after a few centuries of bowing down to her father, so she was a feminist.

I agree, Jane, that Circe was the only god that was admirable in any way. I wonder if that was a mistake in Miller’s part. In some ways, it doesn’t fit that she would be the only one. Medea comes close but only for her bravery and determination.

I’ve been meaning to say something about the cover of this book. I would like to have it in a frame. For now, I’m going to try to keep it on my bookshelves facing out. I really love it.

Barb,
It is a beautiful cover.