The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of April 13th – April 19th, we are reading Chapter Four, p. 83 - 116
The Golden Age Never Was the Present Age of the book Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

Week Five - April 13th – April 19th
Chapter Four, p. 83 – 116
IV: The Golden Age Never Was the Present Age

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on March 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on April 13th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Stacy Schiff

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--

by Stacy Schiff

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of April 13th – April 19th , we are reading Chapter Four - The Golden Age Never Was the Present Age, p. 83 – 116.

The fifth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Five - April 13th – April 19th, 2015
Chapter Four: The Golden Age Never Was the Present Age - pages 83 – 116

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Four: The Golden Age Never Was the Present Age

Caesar left Egypt on June 10, taking Cleopatra’s sister Arsinoe with him as a prisoner of war. Two weeks later, Cleopatra gave birth to a son, officially named Ptolemy XV, but known as Caesarion after his father.

Cleopatra had to spend an enormous amount of time governing Egypt. There was a huge bureaucracy including priests, tax collectors, scribes, and clerks. She had to meet with foreign dignitaries and perform religious rites. Complicating her task was the fact that Greek laws applied to the Greek citizens and Egyptian laws to the Egyptians. She must have done a good job, as there were no revolts during her reign.

Once Egypt was settled, Cleopatra journeyed to Rome, along with her brother-husband and child and an enormous entourage. Caesar settled her in his estate on the Janiculan hill and visited often, getting to know his son, who looked like him. Caesar’s time in Alexandria exposed him to various scholars there and he used their ideas to reform Rome’s badly out-of-sync calendar. The Julian calendar was in use in most of Europe until 1582, when it was replaced by the Gregorian calendar.

Cleopatra went home to Egypt during the next spring and returned to Rome in the fall. She probably felt she couldn’t be away too long or plots would form against her. On the other hand, she wanted to make an impression on the Roman elite, to get as many of them as possible on her side.

Folks, we are kicking off the fifth week of the Cleopatra discussion - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

I was surprised by how much work Cleopatra had to do to oversee the government and religion of Egypt. It sounds like she was really good at it.

I found it surprising that Egyptian ships had to hug the shoreline and put into port each night. This must have been about their ability to survive the open seas rather than navigation. We just finished reading about how advanced Egyptian (Alexandrian) science was; they must have had a firm understanding of the principles of navigation.

I didn't like the comparison with a Communist economy (even if some scholars had that temptation as well). Schiff seems to forget many things about the Egyptian economy and society, like the fact the Pharaohs were living Gods (Cleopatra had a firm relationship with Isis) and theoretically the whole country belonged to them as their property, which explains why among ancient native Egyptians there wasn't any sense of private property. This is very different from what happens in a Communist regime.

Stacy Schiff

Michael wrote: "I found it surprising that Egyptian ships had to hug the shoreline and put into port each night. This must have been about their ability to survive the open seas rather than navigation. We just f..."

Egyptian ships did like most navies did until the Renaissance: sail during the day and dock in a safe place at night. There were two reasons to do this: food might not be enough for longer trips and, even if that's possible, the Mediterranean might be a very treacherous sea and it isn't worthy to lose ships just to make goods sail across it faster.

I wish I knew Greek and Latin so I could understand what she says about how Greek is "sinuous, supple, all-accommodating" and Latin is "hard edges and right angles." According to the footnote (for p. 109), it's because Latin lacks "the sweetest Greek letters." Can't help but wonder what those are.

I like how Schiff contrasts Rome with Alexandria. After the beautiful, clean, expansive streets and environs of Alexandria, coming to dirty, smelly, congested Rome must have been a real shock. And it sounds like nobody got any sleep what with the nighttime traffic - maybe they had long siestas in the afternoon.

I agree Vicki. She definitely shows the differences between the two places. I thought it interesting how differently the two societies treated women. I think I'd much rather live in Alexandria. I just wonder if it was hard for Cleopatra to stay low key while in Rome.

There were so many fascinating tidbits in this chapter...actually in the book as a whole so far. I was also entertained at the discussion of pearls and Cleopatra's jewelry, specifically that the pearl earrings (I think that was right) were worth a house a piece on each ear. Then there was the discussion of food again. Imagine eating peacock and stork. That gives me quite a visual.

Hi Teri. I think it would be hard for Cleopatra to stay low key almost anywhere except in Alexandria. An intelligent, powerful woman in the ancient world? Shocking!

I just think the shock between the two cities, although real, was a bit exaggerated. Although Rome had still many urbanistic problems that would only be partially solved in the Empire, it was already a cosmopolitan city under transition in the late Republic to become later the greatest city in the Mediterranean city by far and Schiff makes a bit of caricature of some signs of change she records like the building of the Theatre of Pompey.

I question how much of the "management work" was actually done by Cleopatra although I would accept that she managed enough to assure herself of her hold on power.
She was a busy lady - having a child to solidify her link to Caesar (I have to believe that she "decided" to have the child) and dealing with the intrigue of stabilizing her hold on power.
So I have to learn more about Alexandria and that Egypt but it seems that this is a case where what the European Romans brought to Egypt was a superior military and conquest system.
Papyrus is mentioned with "a passion for records and censuses" and I wonder if they did not have this "paper" if they would have had the same evolvement of "paperwork"
I am waiting for following developments.

Vincent wrote: "I question how much of the "management work" was actually done by Cleopatra although I would accept that she managed enough to assure herself of her hold on power.
She was a busy lady - having a ch..."

You may have a point about the actual "work" she did, but she would have had to select competent people to do the work. Also, she probably didn't have to spend much time on the baby. Interesting that paperwork has been around for so long.

Probably more so during Cleopatra's period.