The History Book Club discussion

The Military History Forum is a folder of dedicated threads. This grouping focuses on the humanities discipline which studies the scope of history recorded during armed conflict (battles, wars, etc.)

This segment identifies various interest areas dedicated to some of the larger confrontations and world conflicts in the history of humanity. It examines what impact these clashes had upon societies, their cultures, their economies and ultimately their personal and world relationships.

Studying and reading about military history really helps fine tune one’s ability to evaluate decisions; were the decisions made ones that we would want to repeat or ones that we should avoid in the future. It allows the reader to learn from both ends of the spectrum.

It is always interesting to study and understand how the various leaders and countries made decisions at the time, how they supported their war effort and why, and how years later we can examine their goals for each conflict through their filters and individual viewpoints.

We have highlighted some of the larger battles and wars. We hope to develop each thread as time goes by and to discuss each selection in some depth. Of course, setting all of this up takes time.

If I have missed your favourite war, please let me know and I will add a thread for you. I will also be setting up a British History folder; so some other conflicts may be found there in the near future.

In the meantime, we have opened up threads for the following conflicts, events and areas of interest:

a) First World War
b) War of 1812
c) Second World War
d) American Revolution
e) American Civil War (moved to its own folder)
f) Russian Revolution (1917)
g) The French and Indian War
h) The Spanish-American War
i) Mexican-American War
j) French Revolution
k) Vietnam War
l) The Korean War
m) The Napoleonic Wars (from the end of the French Revolution until 1815)
n) The Crusades
o) How War Is Waged - The Manuals of War
p) Russian Civil War (1917–1920)
q) Armenian–Azerbaijani War (1918–1920)
r) Georgian–Armenian War (1918)
s) German Revolution (1918–1919)
t) Hungarian–Romanian War (1918–1919)
u) Greater Poland Uprising (1918–1919)
v) Estonian War of Independence (1918–1920)
aa) Latvian War of Independence (1918–1920)
bb) Lithuanian Wars of Independence (1918–1920)
cc) Ukrainian War of Independence (1917–1921)
dd) Polish–Soviet War (1919–1921)
ee) Polish–Lithuanian War (1920)
ff) Irish War of Independence (1919–1921)
gg) Turkish War of Independence and the Greco-Turkish War(1919–1923)
hh) Russian invasion of Georgia (1921) ·
ii) Irish Civil War (1922–1923)
jj) The Mexican Revolution (1910 - 1920)
kk) The Franco-Prussian War (19 July 1870 – 10 May 1871)
ll) The Albigensian Crusades
mm) The Holocaust and Genocide
nn) War Poetry
oo) The Cold War
pp) The Falkland Wars
qq) September 11th - not a battle but a prevocative act
rr) Attach of Pearl Harbor
ss) The Libyan Conflict
tt) The Battle of Mogadishu (1993)
uu) The Second Battle of Mogadishu (2006)

Within the framework of each thread, we can nominate books for group discussion.

We also hope that we might be able to elicit input regarding some of the books that you might want to place on each of the threads; I will set up specific shelves corresponding to each battle or war.

It is nice that we have found two (2) folks like Aussie Rick who is our steadfast and dedicated assisting moderator with a focus on all of the conflicts outside of Iraq and Afghanisitan and now Richard S. Lowry who is a Military History enthusiast, author and much, much more who are willing to moderate and keep these segments bustling along. Richard will focus on Iraq and Afghanistan which is his area of expertise.

We look forward to your input. Please visit each thread and add any recommendations and input you might have and give our assisting moderators all of the support you can give.
Bentley

The primary assisting moderator for this group of threads is Aussie Rick.

As everyone is aware, The First World War by John Keegan has garnered the most membership votes thus far so this will be the next spotlighted thread selection. This next discussion will begin on February 21, 2010.



The First World War

John Keegan

Synopsis of book: (Amazon Review)

"Despite the avalanche of books written about the First World War in recent years, there have been comparatively few books that deliver a comprehensive account of the war and its campaigns from start to finish.

The First World War fills the gap superbly. As readers familiar with Keegan's previous books (including The Second World War and Six Armies in Normandy) know, he's a historian of the old school.

He has no earth-shattering new theories to challenge the status quo, no first-person accounts to tug on the emotions--what he does have, though, is a gift for talking the lay person through the twists and turns of a complex narrative in a way that is never less than accessible or engaging.

Keegan never tries to ram his learning down your throat. Where other authors have struggled to explain how Britain could ever allow itself to be dragged into such a war in 1914, Keegan keeps his account practical.

The level of communications that we enjoy today just didn't exist then, and so it was much harder to keep track of what was going on. By the time a message had finally reached the person in question, the situation may have changed out of all recognition.

Keegan applies this same "cock-up" theory of history to the rest of the war, principally the three great disasters at Gallipoli, the Somme, and Passchendaele.

The generals didn't send all those troops to their deaths deliberately, Keegan argues; they did it out of incompetence and ineptitude, and because they had no idea of what was actually going on at the front.

While The First World War is not afraid to point the finger at those generals who deserve it, even Keegan has to admit he doesn't have all the answers.

If it all seems so obviously futile and such a massive waste of life now, he asks, how could it have seemed worthwhile back then?

Why did so many people carry on, knowing they would die? Why, indeed.

--John Crace, Amazon.co.uk

This is a military history group selection which is one selected by the membership.

BBC: THE ART OF WAR

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwar...

BBC: WAR AND TECHNOLOGY GALLERY

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwar...

Can we add the Napoleonic Wars, from the end of the French Revolution till 1815 or will this be covered in the thread for: n) French Revolution.

Happy to add the Napoleonic Wars (from the end of French Revolution till 1815)

This was moved from the introduction thread - Andre Heeger's recommendations (they look great):

Hi Andre...great recommendations for Rick..but don't forget the add book and author feature (smile). And let us know if the book recommended is historical fiction (we are primarily a club of non fiction books) but we do have threads for historical fiction and of course we welcome both recommendations but just make the distinction. Some folks only want to read pure non fiction while others relish the fast read and spicier details of the HF variety.

FOLKS, THESE BOOKS ARE IN FRENCH.


Patrick Rambaud

Patrick Rambaud

P Rambaud

James Marshall-Cornwall

Andrea...I did not find the Bernard Cornwell book you were recommending about Napoleon (fiction)...I did find a book by James Marshall Cornwall.

FOLKS, THE RECOMMENDATIONS BELOW ARE HISTORICAL FICTION!

Ah, now I have found him when I was trying to find the link for the Sharpe series you referenced. Here is his photo below and the link will take you to his fan page and a video interview with him if you are interested plus a long list of his books. The links are a great good reads feature. However, this Cornwell author is more prolific than Mary Higgins Clark...does he put out a book a week?

DISCUSSION MOVED FROM INTRODUCTION THREAD: (CONVERSATION WITH ANDRE H.)

Wow, Bentley, what do I say, you have it all right there.
Bernard Cornwell is indeed a great writer and the amount of books he puts out is amazing (although if I have to pick one I'd prefer Steven Pressfield - his stories go deeper for me).
Maybe it's also this thing with painting war more as an adventure. I have my troubles with that. Sadly we can't go back in time and do in-depth interviews with those involved. From what we know the upper class (both French and English) had what I think as a very strange way of dealing with war. Pride, adventure, duty and what not.
But feelings? The realization of the horror.... I often miss that.
I love the depiction of pride and to what insanity it can lead in The Duellists, Ridley Scott's first feature film (although Keitel's and Carradine's accents do a lot of harm)

DISCUSSION MOVED FROM INTRODUCTION THREAD: (CONVERSATION WITH ANDRE H.)

Andre...I know..my fingers are bleeding (lol). He probably got another whole book done in the time it took for me to add all of his books from the Sharpe series!

Note: After reading about Cornwall and his past (which by the way is as amazing as the number of books he can produce)..I realized that these are not ALL of the books he has churned out...he even has a television series on these books starring Sean Bean. I wonder when he gets any sleep. Just a reminder to my non fiction enthusiasts...these are HF selections.

And of course because you mentioned Pressfield I had to add him too (links Andre..please - you make me work too hard and I am a volunteer (smile) - Steven Pressfield is a novelist and a writer of historical fiction.

Steven Pressfield

This is a link to the Pressfield page and some interviews/documentaries:

http://killingrommel.com/content/inde...

I did not realize that Pressfield was the author of the following either:



Of course, these are all Historical Fiction and we are primarily a non fiction group. I don't want anybody to be disappointed so we must make the distinction.

Could we add a thread that discusses manuals on the how war is waged? I have read a couple books on the subject and would like to know what others thought about these written manuals and if they are still effective today. I have read two such books.


Sun Zi

Ok, that is pretty easy to do...would you contribute to it once it is set up.

I can set it up in the Military History section.

Yes, sir! Thanks Bentley.

You are very welcome...the thread is set up and you have kept your promise...well done.

Bentley:

I have found studying the 19th century wars pretty interesting:

Crimean War
Austro-German War
Franco-Prussian War
Boer War
Russo-Japanese War

I'd be happy to add some books to those threads.

Yes, some good adds...let me queue them up to add these threads.

Yes.... the Franco-Prussian war was something I was interested in during my youth. Also the Boer War (one great-grandfather must have experienced some of it too).
Nice ideas!

Good idea Bryan. All very interesting conflicts, I have read a few good books on most of those areas so it will be good to discuss a few titles with you all.

Ive also been recentley looking into the six day Arab Israeli war and the history leading up to it.

Since we have had so many new members join recently I'd be interested to hear from some of them which book they thought was the best military history book they had read recently.

If it covers a specific conflict that is covered in one of the military history threads maybe thay can mention it there and we can discuss it further.

I'm looking forward to seeing what titles people recommend :)

Hi even though I have not finished it yet by Laurence Rees is by far the best military book I've read for a while. Once again Laurence Rees delivers a fascinating read.

The book looks at the behind the scene going between the big three. The insight of the relationship between Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt is eye opening. As normal the author interlaces the narrative with stories from the little people on the scene, and those affected by their decisions.

I highly recommend this book to all with an interest in World War II.

Hi Michael,

I will move your post over to the WW2 thread so any comments or replies in regards to this book can continue in that section.

Hello all,

I am new to goodreads. I am very interested in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. Since I am new to this environment, I am not sure how to search out members with this common history interest. Please contact me. I look forward to becoming a contributor to your discussions.

Hi Richard, we will look forward to your comments in the military history section of the HBC.

Glad that you surfaced Harvey and of course put any of your travels on the travel page...would be great to hear. And thank you for not posting any urls or personal links because you know how assiduous we are here about those things. We consider it self promotion and I would have had to delete this wonderful note.

Here is the travel link; I know I would be delighted to hear about your travels:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Hi all I have an intersting book to recommend for those interested in the Russian Military.

by Arkady Babchenko

It's an extremley interesting insight into the modernRussian army. It is quite shocking the tale this young soldier has to tell. I hope I am posting this in the right thread as I could not find one it seemed to fit.

Hi Michael,

That's another good book sitting on my 'to read' list! Have you read "The Great Gamble" at all?

by Gregory Feifer

Not as yet 'Aussie Rick' I have that sitting on my Kindles wish list.

Here is a recent review of Nathaniel Philbrick's latest book; "The Last Stand".

Book Review - The Last Stand

by Nathaniel Philbrick

I liked Philbrick's Mayflower, I might take a look at that.

Nathaniel Philbrick

Hi Bentley, I have read most of Philbrick's books and I enjoyed his current one on Custer's last Stand quite a lot, if you enjoy his style of writing I think you'll enjoy "The Last Stand". One thing I have learnt about reading books on Custer is that no matter who the author is, they will never please all the reading public with their book.

by Nathaniel Philbrick

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Bentley, I have read most of Philbrick's books and I enjoyed his current one on Custer's last Stand quite a lot, if you enjoy his style of writing I think you'll enjoy "The Last Stand". One thin..."

Yes, I agree...don't forget when doing citations to also add the author's photo when available (it is available for Philbrick).

Custer and what he did is something that was not even embraced by Grant himself. Sherman and Sheridan seemed to have their own ideas about the Indians which Grant did not share.

I've just received my copy of "The Road to Koniggratz" by Quintin Barry. This book offers a detailed account of Helmuth von Moltke and the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 and is limited to only 750 published copies, all numbered and signed by the author, very nice :)

by Quintin Barry

I hope this is the right place to put in a link. One of my Facebook friends let me know about Hailer Publishing which has begun to print some previously out of print military history books. The catalog is not very big right now, but hopefully will be expanding.

The link: http://www.hailerpublishing.com/

Some books dont fit neatly in specific conflicts. I was wondering about some more generic topical thread(s), like on technology, weapons, information and intelligence to name a few possible ones.

A few books on my reading shelves waiting to be read..

by C.J. Chivers
history of the AK family of assault rifles

by P.W. Singer
Robotics in warfare

Some books that i have read that don't fit nicely in the existing structure....


Intelligence in War by John Keegan
The book touched on intelegence on a number of battles from Napoleon to present. I thought it was an interesting read. Looking forward to reading more on this topic and some of the battles discussed.



Masters Of Chaos by Linda Robinson
Recent history of Special Forces. Covers action in Panama, El Salvador, Desert Storm, Somalia, and the Balkans, to their recent trials and triumphs in Afghanistan and Iraq. .. good book.

Yes, we can take a look at these Tomp. We do have a suggestion box as well and I am only a PM away.

Within the discussions of the First and Second World Wars, we do have threads that have been dedicated to technology and weapons but not to the latter.

Good ideas.

I read a very interesting book some years ago that covered the aftermath of wars and since it doesn't fit in anyone particular thread I figured I'd mention it in case it interests some other readers.


by Donovan Webster
reviews:
"Donovan Webster, a former editor at Outside magazine, has written an eyewitness account of the impossible tasks involved with removing armaments that continue to kill after war has ceased. Between 110 and 120 million land mines are planted in the soil of more than 64 countries. The exponential numbers point to the staggering difficulties Aftermath details: each year more than 5 million new land mines are laid, and only 100,000 are cleared; a new mine costs $3, but removing one costs between $200 and $1,000. In Angola, there are more than 15 million mines, two for every citizen. Webster traces the deadly legacy from the French battlefields of World War I to Vietnam and the Persian Gulf, describing the work of sappers in a compelling story that brings to light the horrifying legacy of warfare." - Amazon.com

"War scars land as well as people. That is the truth that Webster, a former senior editor of Outside magazine, explores in his evocative first book, expanded from an article he wrote for the Smithsonian magazine. Webster proceeds by examining the physical legacies of 20th-century conflict. In France, the legacy consists of unexploded shells and bombs?12 million of them at Verdun alone. At Stalingrad, there are the bones of 300,000 German dead. In Nevada, Webster surveys the results of a decade of open-air nuclear testing, and of disposal sites poisoned for the next 12,000 years by stored nuclear waste. Vietnam, devastated by high explosive and chemical defoliants, continues to pay war's price in mutilated adults and malformed children. The author finds that the deserts of Kuwait are sown with seven million land mines left behind by the armies of Desert Storm and that, in Utah, the U.S. seeks to destroy chemical agents no less toxic for being obsolete. Webster tours these sites himself, personalizing his narrative. He describes their origins and introduces the people who seek to mitigate their effects. More than many academic analyses, this finely written work provides a compelling story of what humanity is willing to do to its world, and itself, in the name of national interest." - From Publishers Weekly

I am currently reading; "St Michael and the Dragon: Memoirs Of A Paratrooper" by Pierre Leulliette. Here are some details of the book's content if anyone else is interested in this conflict.

by Pierre Leulliette
Review:
"One of the finest military memoirs to be published since 1945, this is an account written by a young French paratrooper during the FLN nationalist uprising in Algeria. Despatched to North Africa at the beginning of the insurgency in 1954, Leulliette and his comrades were soon thrown into combat, staggering under heavy loads across the ridges and ravines of the Aures Mountains in pursuit of elusive FLN guerrillas. Although there is a brief and fascinating interlude when his battalion takes part in the 1956 Anglo-French Suez operation, the focus of the book remains the relentlessly brutal counter-insurgency campaign in Algeria.

His cool, measured prose (ably translated in this edition by Antonia White) is ideal for describing the Goya-like horrors he encountered on a regular basis. Casualties were enormous: approximately 700,000 people died during the conflict, a figure compounded by the intense viciousness of the fighting. The FLN terrorised the civilian population into providing them with material support – mutilating and murdering to ‘encourage the others’ – while the French devastated Arab villages that provided the FLN with assistance, routinely torturing the inhabitants to provide intelligence.

One of many revealing incidents described by Leulliette occurs when the paratroopers capture an FLN gang deep in the mountains. Having plenty of time on their hands, the paras casually hang the insurgents by their feet from nearby trees, where they remain for several days, their faces turning black in the process. Those prepared to talk are cut down, interrogated and subsequently shot; those unwilling or unable to provide the necessary intelligence die slowly in agony.

St Michael and the Dragon is more than a catalogue of atrocity, however. Leulliette is both a fluent writer and a first-rate soldier – he comes top in the ferociously tough corporals’ course – and is uniquely placed to tell the story of the French paratroopers’ war with the FLN, whether deep in the Algerian bled or in the casbahs of Algiers. But his empathy with his comrades never clouds his unflinching gaze at the horror of this most cruel of wars." - War Books Review

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I am currently reading; "St Michael and the Dragon: Memoirs Of A Paratrooper" by Pierre Leulliette. Here are some details of the book's content if anyone else is interested in this conflict.

"

thanks Rick sounds interesting.. just ordered a used copy I found online.

by Pierre Leulliette

Hi Tom, glad you found a copy, there is very little written in English covering the Algerian War. The definitive account has to be; "A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962" by Alistair Horne. Leulliette's book offers a very interesting first-hand account of the campaign, I hope you enjoy it:)


by Alistair Horne

by Pierre Leulliette

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Tom, glad you found a copy, there is very little written in English covering the Algerian War. The definitive account has to be; "A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962" by Alistair Horne. Leu..."
A Savage War of Peace is actually next on my reading list. been meaning to read it for a while... so many books.
by Alistair Horne


The Centurions is supposed to be good too. i think it was released as fiction but is based on real life. hope to find an inexpensive copy at some point

by Jean Larteguy

Hi Tom, I wish you hadn't mentioned "The Centurions". A few years back I spent ages trying to find an affordable copy but couldn't (in hardback) and now you have reminded me again what I missed out on. I will have to start another search now :)

by Jean Larteguy

Sorry about the reminder. I wish you luck in your search. Hopefully it will be reprinted, seems like the interest is there. They tried this year but it fell though. Larteguy died in Febuary this year, not sure if that will change matters.

by Jean Larteguy

Hi again Jonathon

Thanks for the titles of books about horses. After I get through my rapidly expanding TBR list, I will enjoy reading about those amazing war horses.

Karolina wrote: "Hi again Jonathon

Thanks for the titles of books about horses. After I get through my rapidly expanding TBR list, I will enjoy reading about those amazing war horses."

Have you read Michael Morpurgo's 'War Horse'? I know it's a novel but it's not too long - written for YAs originally. And from the horse's perspective - like Black Beauty, but on the Somme. Speilberg's filmed it for an Autumn release so I understand.

Michael Morpurgo

Thanks, Jonathan. Good job on the citations. Don't forget to add the author link:

Michael Morpurgo

You just beat me to it!

J.

Jonathan wrote: "You just beat me to it!

J."

lol, you have to be quick around here. Thanks for catching it yourself, Jonathan.

Thanks Bryan for looking after things while I've been asleep.

One book that I have covering horses in military history is; "Warhorse" by Phil Sidnell. I think the books by Ann Hyland have already been mentioned.


by Phil Sidnell



Ann Hyland

Thanks Jonathon and Aussie Rick for those suggestions.

Rick, as we both live in the same land, how did you get copies of Sidnell and Hyland's books?

Karolina wrote: "Thanks Jonathon and Aussie Rick for those suggestions.

Rick, as we both live in the same land, how did you get copies of Sidnell and Hyland's books?"

Don't forget to cite the author every time:

Phil Sidnell
Ann Hyland