Think [the box] ing discussion

Frankly I don't know what to say. I will let the article speak for itself and ask the question - how do we justify this..?

The question, i believe, is utterly valid because, like it or not, we are justifying it. By acceptance of or wilful ignorance against.
Please let me know if you think i am wrong or deluded.

Death Made In America - By: Mohammed Daud Miraki, MA, PhD, who is, "Wondering if your conscience is still anesthetized..."

I am reading Bertrand Russell's "Has Man a Future?" and something i just read is very apt:

[these things will happen] unless the world will agree to find a way of abolishing war. It is not enough to make war rare; great and serious war has got to be abolished, because otherwise these things will happen."

He was writing this in 1961 in response to the reality of nuclear war and radiation. 47 years later.. i can not see that man has sought to listen.

thanks tim
we won't justify it
we'll deny it
you will be called deluded
the source will be impugned
and we'll carefully remove it from our consiousness

or we will simply say nothing

Ha ha ha....By: Mohammed Daud Miraki, MA,...who believes that "Americans: Many Stupid and Evil People" blah blah blah....depleted uranium...blah blah...deformed babies blah. Hellooooooooo? Depleted uranium people.....it's depleted! Does anyone understand what this actually means? There's not one single documented case of Afghan or any other chilren suffering birth defects as a result of DU munitions - because it's not possible. Mohammed Miraki is an idiot and an islamist propogandist as his writings clearly demonstrate.
This kind of excrement turns moral equivalence on it's ear. Utter bullshit.

I have never heard of Mohammed Duad Miraki, but don't think that's really the point. Neither is the truth or falsehood of this particular incident. Regardless of the specific incident, the issue of justifying horrific things by denying or ignoring them still stands.

You've never heard of herr Miraki...so you've never read him either. Yet, somehow, you're able to assertain that his rantings are "not the point". That's quite a stretch there...care to expand on that? Otherwise, I'd have to observe that your assertions as to "truth" and "falsehood" in this case don't carry a whole lot of water...or do they? By all means, do argue your point.

No, I haven't read him. Obviously my assertions in this case carry no weight at all, and I'm not sure how exactly I would go about validating them anyway. I don't think an understanding of a particular man's writings are required in order to comment on the underlying issues raised by a particular case, regardless of its truth or falsehood. And I believe that there are issues being raised here, which are more broad and far-reaching than this incident.

What I mean is that there are countless incidents of atrocities committed around the world, where our silence indicates our complicity, and thus justification. That goes beyond this incident. There are atrocities outside this case, and even if it were proved to be a falsification, the fact that humanity turns a blind eye to terrible things that it does still stands. All of the moral and ethical issues raised, still stand. They are not eradicated by one particular occurrence being proved false, as they go beyond it.

yah
i think that was tim's point
how do we as caring human beings
carry on as if there are no horrible things happening
in particular horrible things that are caused by our actions (in this case waging war) and inactions (not changing our use of depleted uranium munitions)
(and btw as is common in the nuclear lingo
depleted doesn't mean completely gone
and low levels of radiation are the cause of genetic mutation)
allie is pointing to the broader issue which is what tim was asking us to ponder
i was once called the rudest so and so around by someone who's friend request i refused and i had to consider my passion, my language, my fervor and my use of inflammatory language (i determined that char and donald were the asses and sarah was a sycophant)
but in this case i think you've come to be a provocateur
and not a good one
just a nasty one
so...after this direct salvo
i'll avoid char's second as he rides to do battle for m'lady's cause

Hey, if requesting peoples to cite specific example is your interpretation of a "nasty provocateur" then I'm guilty as charged. Tim used that author and article to make a point so I'm quite justified in specifically rebuking it. Dont' like it? Find another article. My point was that the article was soooo flawd as to render Tim's point moot. Garbage in, garbage out. We can debate all day until we're dead on the "larger issues". What's most important is that we're able to condense them so that they have meaning in our daily lives. Otherwise, it's just sophistry. Should we focus on our own actions...certainly, but not to the exclusion of all the other injustices being perpertrated in the rest of the world. That's exactly the type of inaction you referenced earlier, and which I see all to much of in this country. "US Govt out of my womb!" But hey, clitiral circumcision is a cultural thing and we really have no business interfering. That goes double for honor killing.

In regards to DU munitions...sure if you were to use a DU suppository for the next oh, 20 years yeah you might sustain somewhat higher risk for exposure. Other than that I don't see any other way. Current analysis shows no evidence for increased cancer (let alone birth defects which is an entirely different scencario)from exposure to or use of DU munitions. The only danger is when you're on the receiving end because they kill you dead. Doorknob dead - you can't get any deader. The studies on DU munitions is all over and easily accessible. I highly recommend you avail yourself of them.

I do know Char...I don't know Donald, as I'm only very recently joined the GR community. I'm noone's second, believe me. You'll avoid me 'cause it's the easy way out. Too bad.

"Should we focus on our own actions...certainly, but not to the exclusion of all the other injustices being perpertrated in the rest of the world. That's exactly the type of inaction you referenced earlier, and which I see all to much of in this country. "US Govt out of my womb!" But hey, clitiral circumcision is a cultural thing and we really have no business interfering. That goes double for honor killing."

If you want to use female genital mutilation as an issue, fine. Haven't you just provided us with an example of a phenomenon where 'we' turn our heads and thus justify it? Why not raise that as an issue, rather than writing it off (as in issue or example in this case) because you assume that it is justified by people/the US Govt/whoever, as a cultural practice.

Putting issues in the 'cultural domain' can be seen as putting them in the 'too hard' basket. I'm not comfortable with lumping all issues that can be classified as 'cultural' in this same category, as I think that cultural relativism has its place in some instances. But this is one of the ways in which we justify our doing nothing.

What about, off the top of my head, things like the Cambodian and Rwandan genocides, famines all over Africa, bloody civil wars. If you want to draw a distinction between things that the US Govt, or in my case the Australian Govt does, and between other things that are happening aroudn the world, fine. I honestly do believe that the issues here, still, are that things happen which are abhorrent, and which we ignore, and thus justify. And for the record, I don't believe that using a bad example writes off the potential to address the underlying issues raised by it. To me, that seems like a nice big cop-out. I'm sure we could argue about that until the cows come home, too.

the u.s doesn't have sovereignty in morrocco
its cultural atrocities are not subject to the u.s. supreme court rulings
using depleted uranium munitions in u.s. wars is subject to u.s. law
as i've stated
no one is calling me to consult with world leaders or share my goodreads pseudo think tank ramblings in their high level circles so yah on this social networking site i choose to take the easy way out of conversations with obnoxious people
the cat's a furball allie perhaps others will join the conversation but don't waste your time talking to him because he's a furball with poopey head friends

Haha, yeah I thought someone else might jump in, but apparently not. I realised a couple of posts ago that this is one of those tiring, predictable things that you can see unfolding way before it happens. :)

A couple of observations:
No national government is going to officially comment on every incident, practice, injustice, or barbarity in other countries. That does not mean the same as condoning or justifying it.
That would be analogous to saying that those of us who are members of this Goodreads group condone or approve of whatever others in this group have said or agree with their points of view if we have not weighed in.
There are plenty of issues to weigh in on that compete for time and energy.
There are plenty of diplomatic efforts various governments are engaged in directly and indirectly that are not visible or even covered by media.
Finally, there is a lot that people can do but do not. Governments are made up of people, chosen by people, influenced in their choices of priorities by people. So, a more relevant question for us all, I think, is what are YOU, WE doing, have done , and will do on all these issues.Are we attempting to influence or change our governments?
Are we engaging in private or nonprofit efforts as alternatives to relying on public or governmental efforts in these areas?
OR...
Are we spectators only, confining ourselves to the role of audience,clapping and booing quietly with no effect?

Thanks for your response Allie....and that is in fact just where I hoped the discussion would go. We select a certain portion of the world's ills (including our own) on which to focus - and that selection process has a certain odor to it. My goal was hopefully to call attention to that.

One point in disagreement though is that employment of bad examples do very much dilute one's argument, and may in fact turn off a greater portion of an otherwise receptive audience. So let us return to the article that Tim uses in his original post.

In his article, Dr Miraki goes on an absolute gas-bag of a rant. He levels any number of outrageous claims, ranging from birth defects caused by DU munitions, to wholesale gangrape by US Forces. Not once does he actually provide any proof for his accusations....not a single shred of true evidence to back his rediculous claims. The photos? None of us have any idea where they came from so they are quite useless. He cites 2nd and 3rd hand accounts of atrocities as accepted fact. This article wouldn't stand in a 6th grade English class, it's that bad. It reminds me of the Dan Rather episode...."fake but accurate" eh? Hey...who cares about reality...it's "truthy" man.

Anone who reads that article and believes any of it does so because they WANT to believe those things, and most likely already do.

awwww..goodreader wants to take her ball and go home....Boo! LOL

...and finally, in support of my own accusation regarding Dr. Miraki being an islamist apologist .. I may have erred slightly. He IS an islamist. Here's a tasty little article in which the good Dr calls for the death of an American author for having committed the high crime of insulting Islam

http://www.rense.com/general76/short.htm

Here's some tasty quotes to whet yer appetite:

"Before I talk about the events in which Muslims were supposedly involved, his disregard for the Great Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) qualifies him for an appropriate Fetua (religious decree) that Muslim scholars need to enact to deal with this individual. It is imperative to understand that the consequences of one's actions are the result of that individual's blatant disregard for what is sacred to other people. Thus, Muslim scholars worldwide are debating Wooldridge's comments and enacting a Fetua (religious decree) to deal with this ignorant beast. I believe, they should advise him to watch his mouth and let this be the last time he opens it inappropriately. And yes Wooldridge should apologize for his stupid comments."

"In the second Gulf War, your Christian country-Zionist Pigs-have murdered more than 1 million civilians."


As they say...."go read the whole thing". So you see....examples are very, very important.

not bill: how can you ascertain that dr Miraki is an islamist? are there valid grounds, and evidences? hmm..

but anyway, i do agree that the source seemed to be particularly directed at America- strong title and caption there- "wondering if your conscience is still anestheized"

in my opinion, the pictures killed. the pictures were the ones that did the most 'damage', if i can call it damage, or in otherwords, impact.

surely, without gruesome pictures of those deformity, one (maybe you, maybe not) may still have accepted it as "a sad case of the World". its those pictures that antagonizes, and causes our righteous souls to proclaim, how can we help, what can we do, can it be justified??.. what is that word placed on it..?? martyrdom>?

how do we justify it? and it=???

it being: us taking on the role of "spectators only, confining ourselves to the role of audience,clapping and booing quietly with no effect?" - that was SO nicely put by wendy.

well, that would depend on what trap one places oneself in: have you met, (or ARE you), one of those who seem so overly sympathetic, and empathetic and responsive to every injustice that you see.. (an abandoned dog: "oh, such a poor, poor thing. how can people do this!") and with a given sense of self-righteousness, one proclaims it(no longer just referring to the dog case, but general injustice) to be cruel, unjust and cry/ talk/ rant over it..

well, if that person is just like that, then, they are "trapped". it would be very, very hard for them to justify such injustice.. the difficulty being in that: they cannot forgive themselves for seeing/ knowing about it, yet DOING NOTHING about it. whereas for other, less sympathetic self-righteous others, they would have an easier time justifying it- knowing it, but because it is not affecting them, the notion of injustice sooner comes to pass for "misfortunes". therefore, it is ultimately, to each his own to justify it.


well, of course such actions SHOULD be questioned. as for justified.. i dont know.. Whats the Point? Whats the Point, of seeking justification for it when it CANNOT be easily justified? instead, sooner numbing one's conscience than having the effect of really changing the world.

dont you see that all these cases are ALWAYS left hanging, just like that article (exempting the fact that it may not be totally reliable)- you dont see a world-wide response or outrage over it do you. at this rate, these unanswered, hanging questions are no longer going to be bother people, because, they have no valid answers that can improve on the situation..

wendy is right in that, it relies on us, people, humans, to do something, start something. whats the point of talking over it without action at the expense of even numbing ourselves?

- what is life?

Singer of All Songs: What was that? Surely, that could have been distilled into a few salient sentences.

However, you did lead off with a few direct questions...all well and good. Let me ask you...does the good Dr not fit the description of an Islamist? His beliefs are clear for all to see...so you demonstrate to me that he is not, based on the article I referenced. As for me, I will take him on his word. When he refers to the forces of the West as "Christian = Zionist Pigs" and then repeats a lie that is common among islamist circles...well what should one think?

ah. um, i guess my thoughts are always flying all over.. that happens when i'm half enthused, half crazed..

oh anyway, i dont know about the islamist thing- i dont want to be too quick to judge, especially over an article on the net.. he may just be over-passionate. and i'll admit, i didnt look into your reference. hehs, i thought you were against islam or something..

i dont think i can demonstrate how he's not. so your argument stands.



oh, by the way, judging from what not bill has said, has anyone even bothered reading my long whatever?? looking at it, i guess i wouldnt either. sigh.

The Singer of All Songs oh, by the way, judging from what not bill has said, has anyone even bothered reading my long whatever?? looking at it, i guess i wouldnt either. sigh.

Yep ... I read 'em all.

It was a bit difficult to wade through :) but I think I understand what you are saying ...

1. You found the pictures to be a compelling call to action.

2. Some consciences has been 'anesthetized' through the over exposure / appeal to 'every injustice'

3. It sounds like you believe it is easy to question and hard to act ... and lack of action does not equate to justification.

4. Because the specific action needed and the impact of said action is not clear, it is easier to be a spectator even though we should be doing something?

If I got it right ... I don't see anything terribly controversial about this :)

opps, did it seem controversial to you..? maybe it was.. which part of it was? i'd try to clear my own controversy..

and you acutely refined about all i was trying to say/ thought. comparing your sharp points with my draggy passage.. hehs, now i feel slightly embarrassed..

I finally had a look at it. It's total propaganda. Photographs are easily doctored and nothing connects these with uranium poisoning, whatever that is.

A Google search of Dr. Miraki shows clearly that he wishes to repay with hate the U.S. involvement in Afghanistan. Regardless of how you feel about the war, nothing justifies spreading lies and hatred of the United States in turn.

This is typical Militant Islamist material.

To the Thinking Outside The Box community...a heartfelt "thank you". Not for any agreement to my argument, but for the exploration thereof. By all means, let the debate continue.