Reading the Chunksters discussion

Here is where we will discuss Chapters 5-8

This weeks reading seemed to follow the same format as last week. Lots of stories but I do feel like I'm getting a better handle on the characters and how they fit together except for the part about Nelson and Ze. I don't really understand who they are and how they fit or even what time frame they are in. Did I miss something here?

I really, REALLY struggled with Elaine's section. The rape and degradation of women was almost too much for me in that section. I had to put the book down and I wasn't sure I was going to keep reading. I know rape and horrible things happen all the time but the way those scenes were described made me sick to my stomach. Did anybody else think of quitting at that point? I'm really scared of what is going to happen to Elaine.

Eleazard's notebooks are confusing too they are such a jumbled up ramble of his thoughts but I guess that's what journals are. I'm not sure I see the point of them just yet.

I can't say as I'm really enjoying this one yet. I'm hoping in the next week the stories will come together a little more. It feels very disjointed. I'm not sure how much of that is the novel and how much is the translation. Sarah mentioned last week that it didn't feel very literary I completely agree with that but I do think that may be the translation and not the author's prose.

How are you guys doing with it and what are your thoughts so far?

I have to admit that I stopped reading during the gang rape scene. I just don't know if I can go back. It's horribly disturbing.

So far I do like that each section is taking up a longer chunk of the book. We're getting to really see cohesive pieces of people's lives rather than a series of flashes.

I definitely agree that it's the translation that makes it seem not very literary. I was paying closer attention today and it seems like there's a predominance of smaller words. Like someone is sticking with literal translations rather than capturing the essence of the book as well. I'm not crazy about that part. I wish I read French well enough to read in that language.

I think Eleazard is one of the characters I like the most but I was puzzled that in Elaine's section she said that he was never working on his dissertation, I think. But it sounded like he hadn't finished his schooling and he was no longer working on the Kirchner stuff? I was completely confused by that. I was also quite confused when a ping pong ball appeared in his mouth. I saw the explanation but as I was reading it it was SO random.

Forgot about the ping pong ball. That might be the most random thing ever. I would really like to read that part in French. It felt like something was lost in the translation.

It's definitely totally random. I had absolutely no idea what was going on!

I finished the section today, although I thought there was another bad part and I'm having trouble with those. I was looking back at my notes and when the Governor was talking to his wife, Carlotta, he said "you look like... like an old whore, querida, and old whore!" Doesn't querida mean something like "dear"? I thought the affectionate term here was particularly cruel.

Also, we were talking about the weakness of the translation and there's a part where Moema says "You..." she hesitated, then went over to the familiar second person, "You... This is actually a perfect example of a literal translation rather than capturing the essence of the story as well. An English reader who has never studied a language with a familiar and formal version of the word "you" is going to be completely confused by this interchange.

I find Kircher's assistant to be an extremely disturbing individual. His slavish devotion to Kircher is a very intense hero worship and then he's personally rather cowardly. Are we given a name for him? I'm wondering if he might be real too? Either way, I dislike Kircher anyway and those particular sections make me a bit nauseous!

I find it really odd but I actually really like Carlotta. She only had such a very brief piece in this but when she called the caterer and essentially told them to spend all of the money they could think of, I was totally cheering her on. I hope things go well for her. I'm very confused by the list she found at the end.

And yes, Amanda, I'm also quite worried for Elaine. That man needs to be fed to the piranhas.

Sarah wrote: "I find Kircher's assistant to be an extremely disturbing individual. His slavish devotion to Kircher is a very intense hero worship and then he's personally rather cowardly. Are we given a name for him? I'm wondering if he might be real too?"

Of course he has a name, Caspar Schott . As for him being real or not, this seems to be a tough question. Thanks, Sarah, I'd never have thought to check it out because I thought he must be fictitious. And yet apparently, there was a Gaspar Schott who "was a German Jesuit and scientist, specializing in the fields of physics, mathematics and natural philosophy, and known for his industry". He also worked with Kircher for a time and other facts, such as his age, match as well. But then, apart from the different name, he died in 1666, whereas in the book in the first chapter we read " On this day, dedicated to Saint Genevieve, the third of the year 1690, I, Caspar Schott, (...) undertake to relate the life, exemplary in every detail, of the Reverend Father Athanasius Kircher". So it seems that Caspar Schott's character is based on a historical figure, but with modifications. Here you have a link to Gaspar Schott's page on wikipedia.

As for the other sections of the book, obviously the rape scene was very disturbing and meant to be like that. Herman is a German Nazi (I understood that he was stationed in a concentration camp) who escaped punishment by fleeing to Brazil. It is common knowledge that many former Nazis, also prominent ones, fled to Latin America, lived there under false identities and were never discovered or found out very late. I don't want to think what he's up to with Elaine and the others. As for the rape scene, I'll mention that it was horrible to learn how they kill leopards in order not to damage their skins. And I'm convinced it's true, too...

Elaine's section seemed to be very interesting so far: a trek into a virgin territory to discover some fossils, I was looking forward to it. But now I'm afraid it will turn out to be a crime story.

I like Eleazard chapters the most. It seems that contrary to what he thinks, the separation with Elaine has actually done him some good. He started working on Kircher's biography, he's taking interest in the outside world. My reaction to the ping pong balls appearing in his mouth was opposite to yours: I thought it was cool that he already learned some tricks. In the first section he was playing with the 3 balls, training and learning tricks from the books he acquired with some difficulty. It was only logical that he use his new skills now.

Yes, querida means exactly dear referring to a woman, to a man it would be querido. What I liked in this section was that we get so many different viewpoints: i.e. first we read about the Governor, the way he perceives his wife, and later we learn what his wife thinks and how he was in error about her, because she despises him and doesn't want him back at all (I don't blame her!). I also wonder what is she going to do about what she discovered in the papers on his desk. I hope she quits drinking and concentrates on opposing her husband's scheme.

An English reader who has never studied a language with a familiar and formal version of the word "you" is going to be completely confused by this interchange.

Just a random fun fact I've learned lately, "you" in English IS the formal version of the word "you"! "Thou" is officially the informal version, but during a translation of the bible (I forget which one), Thou was used in terms of God because God should be one's most intimate relationship. After this, people used Thou for God and dropped it in normal speaking language, leaving "you" to serve both purposes! I saw a mention of "thou" as the informal you in "The Immoralist" and looked it up after.

Sarah - I also like Carlotta! I wish she had a bigger part so far.

I think Eleazard is one of the characters I like the most but I was puzzled that in Elaine's section she said that he was never working on his dissertation, I think. But it sounded like he hadn't finished his schooling and he was no longer working on the Kirchner stuff? I was completely confused by that.

Hmm...I took this as an example of multiple viewpoints. In Eleazard's head, hes doing all of these things, but to an outsider like Elaine, he's maybe just piddling around doing very little work. Like an example of someone that tells you they work out several times a week and their spouse might laugh and say "yaaa....more like once a month..."

Otherwise, this book is kind of just so so for me. We are quite a ways into it, and I am not connected to any of it, really. We'll see how it continues to pan out!