Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Another excerpt from MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX: The $ickness Industry, Big Pharma and Suppressed Cures:

“I actually like how doctors talk. I like the sound of science. I like how words you don't understand explain things you can't understand.” –American author (Ms.) R.J. Palacio

Most of you will be aware of the old adage, You are what you eat. It seems to us, though, that many members of the medical profession aren’t – or, if they are, they consider it an old wives’ tale.

When did your doctor last talk to you about your diet? We suspect that, more often than not, doctors only deign to discuss diet when a patient dares to raise the subject. And then, if your experience is like ours, you’ll be greeted with a frosty stare or, at best, a few mumbled banalities about not over-eating or the importance of a balanced diet or cut down on fats.

Which leads to more (related) questions: How long do doctors-in-training spend studying nutrition at medical school? And why isn’t nutrition on the curriculum alongside biochemistry, pathology, physiology and the like?

These questions and more are raised in a very appropriate discussion thread on the ResearchGate.net site. A random selection of comments from that thread follows:

• “We need clinicians to remember to consider nutrition when seeing/treating a patient rather than being a full nutritional expert. However they should know basics such as basic nutritional needs and guidelines, calculating and interpreting BMI, when to give nutritional support and be aware of the importance of using nutritional screening tools to see if referral to a dietitian is required.”

• “I would be a staunch supporter of making nutrition a major field of study in a medical doctors pursuit of their degree.”

• “Before health care providers can get into…details about individual response to nutrients and talk about personal nutrition, they need to establish their nutrition knowledge and clinical skills foundation. For physicians this needs to happen in medical school and requires a serious effort.”

• “Considering the importance of nutrition for a patient's recovery from disease and maintenance of health it is surprising that nutrition isn't a bigger part of conventional medical school education.”

• “It should be within the core responsibilities of doctors to address nutrition in patient care and it is essential that all doctors know the appropriate time to make a dietitian referral.”

• “Why is it so hard to understand that robust familiarity with nutrition is equally or even more important (than surgery training)?”

To add some balance to the discussion, one contributor (from the University of Jordan) to the above thread observes that nutrition is “a specialized field and huge in its content.” He adds, “Medical students (are) overwhelmed by texts, labs, and courses. It requires an evolutionary plan to incorporate nutrition with medicine curricula”.

Medical educators at least pay lip service to the importance of nutrition, and they appear to be in general agreement that there's not enough instruction on this topic in today's medical schools.

For example, the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) addresses this via its official online site AAFP News. In an article dated May 17, 2010, the writer reports that although most medical schools (in the US) offer some form of nutrition education, only one-quarter require a dedicated nutrition course.

The article continues, “In fact, the amount of nutrition education that medical students receive is so ‘inadequate’ that ‘medical school graduates feel unprepared to intervene in their patients' care with regard to nutrition,’ according to the UNC preliminary survey results”.

Another 2010 report – this one published by the US National Library of Medicine in conjunction with the National Institutes of Health – concludes that “The amount of nutrition education that medical students receive continues to be inadequate”.

That report summarizes a survey of 109 medical schools, which revealed that “most (103) required some form of nutrition education” of their students. The most disturbing revelation, however, is that “Overall, medical students received 19.6 contact hours of nutrition instruction during their medical school careers”.

19.6 contact hours of nutrition instruction? During a med school course that takes, what, four or five years at least?

"The downside to becoming a doctor, I think, is it's a very long process; four years of medical school, three years of internship, two years of residency, umpteen years of specialization, and then finally you get to be what you have trained almost all your life for." ―South Korean artist Jim Lee

Let’s face it, sensible eating is probably the best single thing we can do to help ensure a healthy future as food governs the functions of our organs and figures prominently in both the contracting of illness and disease, and in our recovery from those ailments.

The link between diet and health is well proven and, more importantly, widely acknowledged by doctors, for ailments such as diabetes and heart disease, but are roundly ignored by them in treating other human conditions – cancer being one of those. Indeed, mainstream (Western) medicine seems to go out of its way to discourage cancer patients from making too much of the cancer-diet connection.

The good health site HoneyColony.com neatly addresses this in an article quoting Dr. Carolyn Dean, a medical advisory board member of the nonprofit Nutritional Magnesium Association. She says, “There are many reasons why diet is not stressed in cancer treatment” and “Most of them stem from the fact that medicine does not put any emphasis on nutrition in medical school…In about 3,500 hours of typical medical school training, maybe one, two, or three hours’ worth of classes are devoted to basic nutrition”.

So now it’s only three hours of basic nutrition at most…in a five-year course! Lordy.

The cancer-diet connection is also examined by the BBC online in an article dated May 19, 2013. Presenter Sheila Dillon, herself a cancer patient, observes, “Thousands of scientific papers have been published on the link between diet and the treatment and prevention of cancer, but in practice food is still considered a marginal aspect of cancer care”.

Ms Dillon continues, “Research confirmed that in most cancer centres in the UK, diet is still seen as almost meaningless in cancer treatment and aftercare. Yet there is good science available on the subject, though not a lot of it is what medics call ‘gold standard’ science.

“There are almost no double-blinded, large scale, studies done on people because they are expensive, very hard to do and there is no financial incentive. Who would make serious profit out of the discovery that mushrooms kill cancer cells?

“Most of the research has been done on cancer cells in the laboratory or on animals. What the best of it shows is interesting implications in a range of foods.
“One of the best-researched foods (in the US and Ireland) is the spice turmeric. Curcumin is a chemical compound found in the root of turmeric, which has a general anti-inflammatory effect and quite specific effects on several forms of cancer, including mine,” she says.

“Research has also been conducted on berries containing ellagic acid, which seems to curb cancer cells' ability to grow their own blood supply, mushrooms (the polysaccharides), green tea, as well as the cabbage and onion families.

Ms Dillon concludes, “From my experience as a cancer patient I think many people fear that they are being ungrateful for the medical care they have had by bringing up issues such as diet”.

Still in the UK, if a report published by the British Psychological Society is correct, “too many people with eating disorders are being dismissed by doctors as simply having peculiar habits with food”.

The report, dated February 25, 2014, is based on the findings of Cosmopolitan UK magazine and the charity Beat which warned that “around 1.6 million people currently have an eating disorder in Britain, half of whom have being diagnosed with an EDNOS (eating disorder not otherwise specified) that is separate from anorexia or bulimia”.

The article continues, “However, many of these patients could be left waiting up to two years for treatment in the form of cognitive behavioural therapy because GPs do not view their symptoms as sufficiently serious to warrant urgent investigation”.

By now it should be clear there’s a serious disconnect between (most) doctors and the role of nutrition in their patients’ health. Whether you blame those who set the already crowded curricula at medical schools or whether you blame the tunnel vision mainstream medicine has regarding diet, the fact remains there’s a problem. And in many independent medical researchers eye it’s a big problemo.

“First the doctor told me the good news: I was going to have a disease named after me.” –Steve Martin

Returning to our original question – When did your doctor last talk to you about your diet? If the answer to that is Never, perhaps it’s time you did. Talk to him/her, that is. Be it to address high cholesterol, an excess weight problem, a heart condition, cancer or high blood pressure, perhaps it’s time to have that little chat.

If doctors are aware their patients are diet-conscious and if they’re constantly reminded nutrition is important to them, perhaps they’ll fall into line and give it (nutrition) the importance it deserves when it comes to treating people.

Hopefully, this chapter has provided you with some ammunition to fire their way.

We must add a little footnote here and acknowledge that the inference that doctors are not nutrition-minded or, for that matter, not supportive of alternative health measures is very much a generalization; we are aware there’s a growing number of physicians (and other health providers) in mainstream medicine who are very knowledgeable about nutrition and alternative health, and who incorporate this knowledge into their everyday practice.

Unfortunately, they are very much in the minority.

my doctor is always on my case bout my poor diet. he recommends a lot of stuff I can't find at my local hood mart or foods I don't care for that will help keep cancer at bay. I do eat the stuff begrudgingly cos I wanna see age 150 with cybernetic parts and my plasma shotgun at the ready. my doc is a rare one who actually hates seeing me come in (it means fighting my state insurance again lolz). if I actually ate better exercised more often and boozed less he'd be happy. I sometimes wonder if he's cussing me out in chinese when he has to deal with me after I annoy him yet again...
but yeah most don't give a flying and work for big pharma.

K.P. wrote: "my doctor is always on my case bout my poor diet. he recommends a lot of stuff I can't find at my local hood mart or foods I don't care for that will help keep cancer at bay. I do eat the stuff begrudgingly cos I wanna see age 150 with cybernetic parts and my plasma shotgun at the ready. my doc is a rare one who actually hates seeing me come in (it means fighting my state insurance again lolz). if I actually ate better exercised more often and boozed less he'd be happy. I sometimes wonder if he's cussing me out in chinese when he has to deal with me after I annoy him yet again...
but yeah most don't give a flying and work for big pharma. ..."

Yeah, the Chinese doctors, even the ones in Western medicine, are usually more aware of things like diet and take a more integrative approach to healthcare.
Anyway, just think what mischief you can get up to at age 150 with that plasma shotgun and cybernetic body parts...I mean, medical science might've advanced to the point where you can eat, drink and do whatever you want!

Funny thing is I don't wish to live to 100. so I probably will, Ha. Fate has away of opposing us. I hate not being able to jump over fences or run down the stairs like I used to.

My thinking about diet is: forget about all the new age diet fads and cooking methods and utensils. It is all promoting something to sell which is fine if it involves the truth. I would happily pay for that. But I am tired of all the used car type salesman: "TruCoat" from Fargo with William Macey? That is what we are getting from the diet pushers these days. So-called secrets to good health - just buy my book or take my shake.

There is so much conflicting advice out there. What my life experience has taught me is to do what makes sense. Eat fresh fruit, vegetables, meat, dairy, legumes and nuts and leave all that adulterated processed food on the shelves in your favorite super market. Treat fast food chains like a night off cooking and don't indulge in that rest from the kitchen too much.

In my opinion, which probably isn't worth a lot but also probably more that those best-seller books on diet, there is nothing wrong with eating fresh meat (fat and all), natural butter, herbs & spices, vegetables (especially greens) and seeds. We have to be careful with bread only because bought bread is fill of additives.

This is the information doctors should be giving. It takes me a little over half an hour to cook meat & 3 veg. It is a myth that cooking needs to take 3 hours or umpteen ingredients. Fine to experiment if you haven't got a busy lifestyle but anybody can manage half an hour at night.

I work with doctors and have friends who are doctors. My degree, MLS (Medical Laboratory Scientist ) is a pre-med route. Most of the doctors are quite into being active. There isn't much nutritional education after the GE nutritional class. We do learn about chemical compositions and how they affect the body. I cannot count how many times I have heard doctors say things like: "if he'd lose a few pounds, his back wouldn't be hurting." ..I'm not sure why some doctors are afraid to just say it to the patient. Healing the body through diet is very frowned upon in the U.S (at least politically). Doctor Gershon was rejected when he came over, even though he had shown that he could cure TB with diet alone. His methods were not accepted in the US. His daughter, Charlotte opened a clinic in Mexico where many Americans travel for cancer treatments. I think much of the problem has to do with FDA approval. I don't think doctors can legally treat a patient by telling him to eat healthy instead of giving meds. But I'm pretty sure those who are overweight will have some type of discussion with their doctor about a healthier lifestyle.

Lisa wrote: "I work with doctors and have friends who are doctors. My degree, MLS (Medical Laboratory Scientist ) is a pre-med route. Most of the doctors are quite into being active. There isn't much nutrit..."

Surely doctors can legally treat a patient by telling him to eat healthy instead of giving meds. Certainly it would be a departure from mainstream medical practice, but I wouldn't have thought it's against the law for a doctor to dispense dietary advice ahead of dispensing meds.

Call me a cynic, but There's no money to be made from just recommending dietary changes ;)
Same goes for other (free) lifestyle changes.
Obviously what I'm implying is a big generalisation about the medical establishment, but it's at least true on some level.

The other thing is Western medicine, especially in the 21st Century, doesn't make as many correlations between diet and health as other medical systems do.

James Morcan wrote: "Call me a cynic, but There's no money to be made from just recommending dietary changes ;)
Same goes for other (free) lifestyle changes.
Obviously what I'm implying is a big generalisation about th..."

Well, the sheer volume of books claiming this diet or that diet can cure/prevent cancer/acne etc shows there's plenty of money to be made.
I this country, a GP simply doesn't have time to dispense nutritional advice as part of a consultation. It really isn't because they're in thrall to big pharma.
As for the value of diet to give the body the best chance of healing, it's indisputable, and it is astonishing that it's not considered as a matter of course. As for the diet given in hospital in this country, it beggars belief - a good diet would save the NHS a vast quantity of cash.
The ability of diet alone to flat-out prevent or cure disease (other than diseases caused by lack or excess, obviously) is as-yet unproven. It can certainly help, however ... or hinder ...

Lance Morcan wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I work with doctors and have friends who are doctors. My degree, MLS (Medical Laboratory Scientist ) is a pre-med route. Most of the doctors are quite into being active. There isn'..."

I think doctors have gone the drug path not only because it is more lucrative but also because they have lost faith in their patients. How many years have doctors been trying to get patients to give up smoking? Now we want patients to give up the crap addictive food and drink they have been devouring. I don't know for sure, but I think it is a bit harsh to blame doctors for everything wrong with our lives.

We need to take responsibility for ourselves and not be conned by the supermarket "it's easy" shelves or the cheap junk food from take-always. Buying "how to eat healthy" books is an equal waste of money. Diets are not sustainable but education is. Healthy living means more money in OUR pockets and not in the pockets of the health industry. Don't join a gym - ride your bike, dig up pipes in your back yard, mow the lawn, bush walk, be active. It's cheap, and enjoyable.

PatEye wrote: "The founder's post is well thought, researched and comprehensive. However my personal experiences with American doctors suffering in the world of Obamacare may be somewhat different. The doctors, w..."

Not sure how doctors can be "perfectly capable of speaking to me of my diet" when they only spend around five weeks (or is that one week? estimates vary) studying diet and nutrition at med school. In my own experience, doctors' eyes glaze over whenever the subject of diet is raised...

I've repeatedly heard a statistic that the average life expectancy of doctors is between 51-59 years in most Western countries (as opposed to about 71-79 years for the general public in the West).
Have never tried to independently verify this statistic (as it does sound a bit extreme to me) but I assume it must be true as I've read it in so many different books and media articles.

If true, then no doubt some of this lower life expectancy could be due to stress, not to mention being around sick people every day. However, you'd think if modern doctors in mainstream medicine knew how to eat right and be healthy they would at least live as long as the rest of us...
Perhaps they over-prescribe themselves also ;)

I probably should also state that I am definitely not anti-doctors.
Only a fool would deny doctors save lives. When it’s a medical emergency and you are in a life-and-death situation, a doctor is ALWAYS your best friend.

However, when you simply have a health problem, or suspected problem, that you wish to resolve or clarify, that’s when doctors can sometimes do you a disservice. The disservice is committing what can only be described as a "medical sin" – such as overprescribing drugs or advising surgery before exploring other less risky treatments.

Such a disservice is usually inadvertent (aka unintentional or careless), but the end result is the same: YOU suffer the consequences.

So I feel in this tricky issue of how to deal with doctors - and maintaining balance between not giving away your decision making power nor getting too paranoid to ever fully trust a medical professional - the best approach is basically what Laureen stated in message 9 about taking responsibility for your own health.

And for those who have been too trusting toward doctors or else naïve and have been burned by agreeing to take too many drugs or undergoing unnecessary surgeries, then I think taking back control of your health is essentially a self-respect issue: YOU are broadcasting the message that “My body belongs to me and I get the final say as to what goes into it and what doesn’t”.

Pete wrote: "As for the value of diet to give the body the best chance of healing, it's indisputable, and it is astonishing that it's not considered as a matter of course. As for the diet given in hospital in this country, it beggars belief - a good diet would save the NHS a vast quantity of cash...."

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Pete, and for enlightening us on the British health system. From what I remember of the NHS service when I previously lived in London it seemed like a pretty decent healthcare system, but I'm not aware of what shape it's in these days. In Britain, as in elsewhere in the world, I honestly believe politicians should make healthcare their number one priority (or at least equal to education). This BS excuse that there is just not enough money to fund healthcare is just that: pure BS. Especially when you take note of all the superfluous expenditures governments agree to in their annual budget.
Cheers,
James

PatEye wrote: "The founder's post is well thought, researched and comprehensive. However my personal experiences with American doctors suffering in the world of Obamacare may be somewhat different. The doctors, w..."

Oh PatEye, you make me laugh. My doctor, a lady, was overweight and I was slightly overweight a couple of years ago. My doctor then lost a heap of weight so, guess what, I managed to get the inspiration to lose weight too. I dropped two dress sizes. Doctors are normal people with all the bad habits the public have so how can they talk about diet or giving up addictive habits?

Let's give them a bit of a break. Hospitals are one of the places where smoking amongst staff is about the highest in the land. If you have a stressful profession, it is very hard to change "comforting" habits. I am a lifetime smoker too, but I finally managed to kick the habit 14 mths ago with the help of no nicotine e-cigarettes and half a nicotine patch (the cheapest method). I still have moments when I would kill for a cigarette but it is so handy when you have friends around and you don't have to disappear to have a smoke. I was sick of feeling like a leper and I knew, as anybody with half a brain knows, it is not good for you.

Fortunately, I have always eaten a healthy diet; that is fresh vegetables, fruit and meat. I think it has helped counter the bad habits. Yes, I know how important exercise is for a healthy body but, alas, I no longer have the time or desire to force myself to do what seems impossible to me. No way could I envisage digging up pipes!

Love you, new friend.

Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients

I agree that doctors don't always raise the diet issue - I think they would most times do so, only if they think it is necessary... And if patients will benefit from such information...

https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/sh...

Tanya wrote: "I agree that doctors don't always raise the diet issue - I think they would most times do so, only if they think it is necessary... And if patients will benefit from such information...

https://w..."

Not sure the book advertised via the link you supplied is relevant to this thread is it Tanya? I may be wrong as I haven't read it.

As for doctors not always raising "the diet issue"... My own experience tells me most doctors don't even think to raise the diet issue unless it's to advise a patient they may be over-eating or under-eating should the patient be obese or anorexic. I say most, not all.

The GP diet: the missing ingredient in better health for everyone http://theconversation.com/the-gp-die...

"Many doctors may not feel confident about giving nutrition advice because they are not well educated on the subject. Indeed, the amount of nutrition education provided to medical students and doctors has traditionally been viewed by educators and government bodies alike as inadequate."